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Marvel Comics - Thor Shaking the Realms of the World Tree
- Thread starter NaturalDestroyer
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- Hulk channels the power of 2 Universes | Heroes Reborn: The Return #4
- Hyperion tanking the destruction of 2 Universes | Avengers (2013) #4
- Silver Surfer preserves two universes | Green lantern/Silver surfer: Unholy alliances
- Two thors shake all levels of reality | Thor (1991) #438
- Hulk rips night crawlers Universe casually | The incredible Hulk Vol 1 #126
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Hasty12345
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That’s what I was trying to put into words, thank you.
it might be beyond the scope of this specific thread, but going forward it might be worth discussing how we treat comic scaling and maybe work out some new rules or refine the ones we currently have.
Hasty12345
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Was there a discussion on splitting marvel into era’s at some point or am I making that up?
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AGAIN, PROPER POWERSCALING FOR THE HERALDS ONLY WORKS IF THEY ARE FULLY SERIOUS IN THE FIGHT AND NOT HOLDING BACK.
It was never my intention to axe powerscaling for these characters, that would be completely ridiculous. Just that these characters might be holding back to a certain tier to not kill someone, but this also does not mean we get to rate these characters massively lower than what they're shown.
TL;DR: DON'T SCALE TO THE HERALDS IF THEY'RE NOT SERIOUS, AND DEFINITELY DO NOT TRY TO TIER THEM LOWER VIA A "HOLDING BACK" KEY, WE DON'T ALLOW THAT FOR CHARACTERS THAT HAVE CONSISTENT FEATS AT THEIR NORMAL OPERATING LEVEL AT FULL POWER. THERE SHOULD BE NO MIDDLE GROUND FOR STUFF LIKE THIS. SCALE THEM TO OTHER CHARACTERS ONLY IF THEY ARE FULLY SERIOUS AND NOT HOLDING BACK.
It was never my intention to axe powerscaling for these characters, that would be completely ridiculous. Just that these characters might be holding back to a certain tier to not kill someone, but this also does not mean we get to rate these characters massively lower than what they're shown.
TL;DR: DON'T SCALE TO THE HERALDS IF THEY'RE NOT SERIOUS, AND DEFINITELY DO NOT TRY TO TIER THEM LOWER VIA A "HOLDING BACK" KEY, WE DON'T ALLOW THAT FOR CHARACTERS THAT HAVE CONSISTENT FEATS AT THEIR NORMAL OPERATING LEVEL AT FULL POWER. THERE SHOULD BE NO MIDDLE GROUND FOR STUFF LIKE THIS. SCALE THEM TO OTHER CHARACTERS ONLY IF THEY ARE FULLY SERIOUS AND NOT HOLDING BACK.
Hasty12345
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I’m not proposing an axing of scaling, just as you say, they need to not be holding back - which is more akin to what I was saying that they need more evidence than the simple fact a fight takes place. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.
and an all out fight should be considered “logical scaling” or at the very least a feat to be considered. Obviously fighting characters who are holding back leads to unquantifiable scaling anyway and shouldn’t be used at all.
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I definitely agree. Rating Herald tiers at 6-C on Earth never made sense to me.
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They don’t shake all levels of reality, their clash is just stated to ripple across all levels of reality, which is more range than AP. And even if it was AP, that would be a 2-A statement, not Low 2-C or 2-C.
The Big Bang statement in that scan is better for AP.
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Oh, alright then, I definitely agree. The fights should be fully analyzed and all signs should be checked out.
Of course, but it would have to be thoroughly analyzed before we just come to a conclusion willy nilly.
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This is the same feat, not two separate ones.
Hasty12345
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100% agree.
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Hmm sure
I am actually confused, i could swear they were different feats.
But yes, my apologies
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- Of course we also have thors accepted 2-C feat
- Thor lays waste to jotunheim and shattered the root of Yggdrasil | Thor: Man of War #1
- The Sentry can destroy a universe | Paul Jenkins word of god
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@MARVEL_Future_Fight_Gamer
Can you find sources for these:
1. Damaged Galactus.
2. Harmed Odin.
3. Rent the heavens asunder in his battle against the Odin Destroyer and held his own.
4. Harmed Glory by summoning the winds of a thousand worlds. (And we should find out how strong Glory is)
5. Harmed Skyfather Hercules.
6. Fought against Surtur.
7. Briefly knocked out Mangog.
8. Briefly knocked out the Phoenix Force, though far weaker than it
Honestly, I can see Thor going up to ranging between 2-C and 2-A at his absolute, absolute peak (excluding stuff like God-Blast and Odinforce of course).
Can you find sources for these:
1. Damaged Galactus.
2. Harmed Odin.
3. Rent the heavens asunder in his battle against the Odin Destroyer and held his own.
4. Harmed Glory by summoning the winds of a thousand worlds. (And we should find out how strong Glory is)
5. Harmed Skyfather Hercules.
6. Fought against Surtur.
7. Briefly knocked out Mangog.
8. Briefly knocked out the Phoenix Force, though far weaker than it
Honestly, I can see Thor going up to ranging between 2-C and 2-A at his absolute, absolute peak (excluding stuff like God-Blast and Odinforce of course).
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So in total
That is of course, without the assumption of thor and the others scaling to skyfather tiers, which gives us a bunch of new statements and feats
- Thor moves the world engine | 2-C
- Hulk channels the power of two universes | 2-C
- Hyperion tanks two universes | 2-C
- Silver Surfer preserves two universes | 2-C
- Hulk rips the undying ones dimension | Low 2-C
- two thors strength is comparable or superior to the big bang | 3-A - Low 2-C
- Thor lays Waste to jotunheim and shatters Yggdrasils root | Low 2-C
- Thor Shakes the fabric of infinity | Low 2-C
That is of course, without the assumption of thor and the others scaling to skyfather tiers, which gives us a bunch of new statements and feats
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Oh, I forgot to mention, we don’t use crossover comics like this one for scaling. Not to mention that if you read the dialogue, Surfer makes it pretty clear that he’s not at his normal level of strength, and he thinks he’d have to sacrifice his life to preserve the universes.
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I mean, it is within his range.
But yeah, not using crossover feats makes sense
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- Silver Surfer #4 (1968): Silver Surfer has the power of the endless cosmos
- The Incredible Hulk #95 (2000): Silver Surfer states that "all the power of the cosmos" flows through him
- Thor tanked an explosion that rivalled the Big Bang and destroyed the entire Black Galaxy, which is a universe made of biological matter / bioverse (this one is already on his profile, but it being only 4-A never sat well with me)
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Transcending
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Can someone summarize all 2-C feats with scans?
Transcending
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Yeah that's what I meant
Hellbeast
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Agreed; they get a varies only if the power has an in universe mechanism
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Avengers Annual #16 (1987) has a potential 3-A feat for Thor. The Grandmaster created five bombs that together would destroy the universe. 3 of the bombs are destroyed before detonating, but Iron Man fails to diffuse his in time and it explodes. When this happens, the Grandmaster says that 1/5th of the universe has ceased to exist. Thor doesn't destroy his bomb in time, but manages to contain its explosion with a storm. Normally, a bomb destroying 1/5th of the universe would be 3-B, but since the wiki's accepted size of the Marvel Universe is 1 trillion light years, this feat should be 3-A. Not as good as the Low 2-C or 2-C feats, but its still a Universal feat.
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We could remove the "5-B when holding back," since as discussed above it doesn't make sense to scale to Herald-level characters unless it's made very explicitly clear that there's an in-story reason to do so. Then he'd be 3-C normally, up to 2-C when exerting himself, up to 2-A with Godblast. Rather than attempt a full upgrade, since it does seem that even though he has quite a few 2-C feats under his belt, we could provide some of the feats we've collected here as support for his 2-C overexertion tier. Thoughts?
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Channels power from two universes, not enough power to destroy them, as far as I understood.
Possibly, but all that he really did was preventing two planets from colliding with each other, and he only withstood an extremely small part of the resulting explosion.
Not a part of regular continuity.
Tom DeFalco used to be the king of hyperbolic flowery language though.
I think that Impress said that it was a tiny pocket universe.
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Not quantifiable, especially as he just absorbs power from the endless cosmos, and this is what seems to be referred to here.
Unproven hyperbolic flowery language I'm afraid.
It was a galaxy-destroying explosion, and it was made clear that authors, not scientists, might one day describe it as comparable to a big bang, again via flowery language to spice up their stories.
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I will see what people have to say about it.
He survived the “cascading energy” that collapsed two universes.
I believe the planets colliding was similar to an incursion
I think the feat is still 2-C, the fact that two universes were erased by this energy with only hyperion remaining implies (if not straight up shows) comparability.
The shockwave affected the entire cosmos, and the energy released by them erupted through all planes of reality i dont think DeFlaco intended this feat to be hyperbole
I believe a hyperbole would also be a lot less specific like most of DeFlacos blatent hyperboles.
I am not sure why it would be though?
It is stated to be a dimension, a cosmos, a universe and is treated as a dimension like hulks world
Which doesnt inherently mean its universe sized, but to assume otherwise would be the more far assumption then just saying its universe sized
Unless there is something i dont know.
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The worst thing about this is that we also assume these Heralds also hold back on their durability, even tho logically and realistically speaking, that's impossible if you actually don't have a proper "Varies" mechanism explaining this fluctuation, like Superman's mental state or Hulk's anger or even Sentry's mental state. THERE IS NO OTHER EXPLANATION FOR OTHER TOP TIER HERALD PEOPLE FOR THIS.
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Thor #338 (1966): Odin said that BRB and Thor might very well lay waste to Asgard
Thor #10 (1998): Thor battled Perrikus and took blasts from him. Perrikus is the God of Unlimited Power and Infinite Energy
Also, slightly off-topic, but since the Unbinding Stone would repeal the very laws of physics, and loosen the principles that bound reality until they’re wiped from existence and end all creation, what resistances would Thor have for withstanding it (not sure whether this feat also applies to durability, but if it does that's cool)
Thor #10 (1998): Thor battled Perrikus and took blasts from him. Perrikus is the God of Unlimited Power and Infinite Energy
Also, slightly off-topic, but since the Unbinding Stone would repeal the very laws of physics, and loosen the principles that bound reality until they’re wiped from existence and end all creation, what resistances would Thor have for withstanding it (not sure whether this feat also applies to durability, but if it does that's cool)
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Withstanding only part of a 2-C explosion is still 2-C from my knowledge. Afaik Inverse-square law isn’t applicable to Tier 2 destruction
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It’s worth noting that if we consider the Marvel Universe to be infinite in size (which is probably stated hundreds of times) then all the universe-shaking feats (Thor hitting Galactus hard enough to shake the universe and doing the same with his Thermo-Blast, Hercules’ statement, Beta Ray Bill shaking the universe in his fight with Stardust, baby Thor’s feat, ect) would end up being High 3-A supporting feats.
Though of course I agree we shouldn’t get out hand with scaling, several characters are unreliable to scale from for the most part due to either holding back on most opponents or having Variable power levels.
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Was it ever explicitly stated to be the actual size of an entire universe?
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Correct. Inverse-square law stops applying once you enter the realm of High 3-A. Infinity divided by anything is still infinity.
Meaning withstanding a tiny portion of a 2-C explosion is still 2-C, but you massively downscale from baseline.
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Okay.
I am not so sure that the feat was intended that way.
If it had been the local universe alone, I agree, but DeFalco made it sound like a Low 1-A feat, which is far too high.
Well, I don't remember so well, but the Dark-Crawler was definitely not presented as remotely capable of withstanding universal scale attacks in other stories, and the realm itself was never explicitly depicted or stated to be be of universal size.
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I am not so sure that it was an explosion rather than a spread out erasure, but point taken.
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