Marvel Comics: Low 1-A Revision (pt. I)

[ParadoxIndifferent]

While I agree that Oblivion is likely High 1-A (mostly due to the Ultimates and Jane Foster stuff), there is no need for the Seventh Omniverse's Eternity to be.

Dormammu described Eternity's heart as Unmanifest, which in philosophy refers to the formless void that predated Creation and Consciousness, and Eternity himself is the embodiment of said Creation, so he'd probably not scale to the Heart - even if it were 1-A.

 

[Driger-God]

I don't think that Seventh Omniverse(Eternity) is 1/A, only the Heart

 

[Antvasima]

I strongly disagree with that the embodiment of all void and nothingness, including the uncreation of the multiverse, is completely contained within Multi-Eternity. It doesn't make any logical sense.

I would also appreciate an easy to understand list of any scans that explicitly state that higher dimensions are higher infinities.

Of the ones that were mentioned above, the multiverse within the Soul Gem is not lower-dimensional (2-D or similar). It is possible to move around in 3 directions within it. It is simply very small since the Soul Gem itself is small. That is all. Hence, it is not reliable evidence at all.

And the Doctor Strange scan from the early 1990s has never been referred to anywhere else, whereas the obscure Kubik and Kosmos scan has been completely retconned and ignored in combination.

 

[MadHATdancing]

Marvel Multiverse is only a couple thousands currently

For starter we see Owen and Franklin making universes one at a time, they did it in half a decade . and took break in between, they could not have done it without each other's help

Newest info states that Franklin is who conceived of, and manifested, each and every universe individually. Owen then used his molecules to bind and anchor those universes to reality, one by one

https://imgur.com/a/ln3EsZK

Those spiderman scans means nothing but writer errors, we know the most official canon, the current multiverse is created one universe at a time by Owen and Franklin, Which Reed stated to be couple thousands. This is Hickman's cosmology current.


Unlike DC where there are scans proving each planes of existence infinitely dwarfs the last

Primal Monitor>∞ 6th Dimension>∞ 5th DIMENSION>∞ 4th Dimension >∞ Limbo >∞ Gods Sphere and Dark Multiverse >∞ 3rd Dimension infinite dc multiverse

places like Superflow is only equivelant to bleedspace, it's there to seperate universes

https://imgur.com/vNRHwle

https://imgur.com/99RW8Gj

The neutral zone is just at the farthest edge of universes/multiverse, which filled with positive and negative matters. It doesn't say anything about it being a higher reality realm, it's not a plane of existence that infinitely dwarfs the marvel multiverse. It's a place very far from the distance. it's not the ocean where the tiny boat of marvel multiverse sits on.

https://imgur.com/a/VhBl0cb

right now In DC, you can go to the Monitor world, and observe the infinity of infinities inside an Orrery. Or you can go to the 4th world. Or you can go to the 5th dimension. You have infinity -- then infinity of infinities -- then infinities that makes the clusters of infinities look small etc.

the difference is

Marvel Structure: infinite universes/timelines/multiverses (Pre SW, now it's not infinite anymore)
DC Structure: infinite universes/timelines/multiverses + different levels of existence to reach archetypal infinity (There's evidence of this specifically stated on the multiverse map under Sphere of Gods text )

https://www.dccomics.com/sites/default/files/Multiversity_Map_2400_53ee6b4c22d9a9.11031355.jpg

the higher dimension planes of beings in DC look at the main multiverse, like us real life human beings looking at comic book characters, if that makes sense

that's why monitor's realm has manisfestation of narration and meta thought forms.


Ewing has made it clear that marvel omniverse/multiverse is made of individual universes.
https://imgur.com/t1Uyo7v

https://imgur.com/avx57io

And what happens when you go outside multiverse? There's just void. https://imgur.com/bMyaYZE

https://imgur.com/lnUYgIV


Kubik and Kosmos went to the edge of the universe there and never beyond it hence they turned into microverse next. in retrospect which would make Beyond realm even smaller as it is just at the edge of the universe.

https://imgur.com/a/r64VTeO

 

[MadHATdancing]

it's technically eighth multiverse not eighth omniverse

not saying using phrases like "eighth omniverse" is wrong

Ewing used multiverse and omniverse interchangeably, in this case using phrase omniverse is meaningless, as it does not reflect on size.

I mean omniverse used to mean everything existing within thte company, that phrase has lost it's meaning

 

[Antvasima]

@MadHAT

Thank you for helping out. I largely agree. The Kubik and Kosmos stories seem to have either been ignored or strongly contradicted afterwards though, as I mentioned earlier.

 

[LordWhis]

If Oblivion is Tier high 1a does True TOAA get his Tier 0 rating back ?

 

[Antvasima]

Oblivion is only 1-A as far as I know, and transcending that by a single degree of reality-fiction interaction is still just 1-A.

 

[TrueBK98]

Depending on the context, a single degree of reality-fiction interaction might be enough for High 1-A.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Stop about the 1,000 universes. In Al Ewing's Ultimates they show there are infinite.

 

[Antvasima]

@TrueBK98

It preferably shouldn't be, except in extreme cases.

 

[TrueBK98]

@Antvasima

Like I said, depending on the context of the verse.

 

[Kepekley23]

Ant, no offense, please cease with the massive downplay and blatant bias against the series immediately. You talk so much about consistency, yet you're willing to latch onto the most unsupported and individual of scans in order to downplay the series to 2-B yet completely dismiss the dozens upon dozens of scans directly stating infinite possibilities, one universe for each of them, infinite realities and etc. as "inconsistent" simply because you said so.

Stop. Thanks.

 

[Driger-God]

@Ant I understand that you want help here, but you ignore everything that was shown, even when already was proven. I don't like stay repeating the same things.

Size of Soul Stone don't interfere with scale of his World. Space Stone World is infinite and don't have any relation with size of gem, the being within Soul World are higher dimensional being, this world exist above the universe(4D)

Soul Stone= Higher Universe > High Multiverse > Regular Universe(4D or high)

In Doctor Who, Tardis is smaller outside than inside.

Never was retcon the high dimensions, in every age of Marvel Comics, you can see Marvel using high dimensions like above, higher, infinite, and in "transfinite" levels.

 

[Kepekley23]

Also:

• Eternity/The Omniverse is made of universes

So what? Where do you think the higher dimensions exist in? The higher levels of reality are part of, guess what, universes!

 

[Kepekley23]

The very idea that the 8th Omniverse's Eternity is 2-B is just such a pathetic downplay.

Multiple upon multiple scans mention infinite universes. Even the original multiverse-recreation scene from Ultimates outright mentions infinite possibilities being recreated.

It is established multiple times that each multiverse is an evolved version of the last.

Really, just drop this. Seriously. You can believe it's the case, but no one else will agree with it.

 

[MadHATdancing]

@MadHAT
Thank you for helping out. I largely agree.

I'd like to see someone refute my points made earlier, a lot of scans were being misinterpreted. We take this scan for example.

https://i.imgur.com/mOhyEH6.png People are confusing size with distance. For example exo-space is just on the edge of the universe, on the edge of OUTSIDE, not outerversal. the neutral zone function the same as DC's bleed space, it's between realities, seperating them. It has nothing to do with being on a higher plane of existence. being the higher plane of existence means size comparison, just like Sphere of Gods view mortal universes like bubbles, the Nil see the multiverse as "germ" world. The closest we have in marvel is the pre retcon beyond realm, which view the marvel multiverse as droplet of water in an ocean. That's the whole point of higher plane of existence and dimension tiering discussion. When you don't have a size comparison to the mainstream multiverse. you can't possibly make a point of "outerversal".

 

[Kepekley23]

Except the Outside (Oblivion) qualifies for our definitions of an Outerverse and, in the Ultimates specifically, the Neutral Zone was treated as being the last outpost of the Omniversal Eternity proper before the Outside.

The Superflow is directly stated to be a "higher space" and the "highest level of reality" and beyond the multiverse multiple times, so you're wrong. Sorry 'bout that.

 

[Kepekley23]

The Superflow is the "space between realities" in the sense that it simultaneously encompasses and transcends them.

 

[Alonik]

Exactly Kepekley23, the superflow is already totally out of the multiverse and is still within eternity, there is no point comparing Bleedspace with Superflow or Exo-space with Promethean Galaxy, because this is not DC Comics, are different publishers and buildings, and it has been more than proven that superflow is not part of the multiverse.

 

[MadHATdancing]

Except the Outside (Oblivion) qualifies for our definitions of an Outerverse and, in the Ultimates specifically, the Neutral Zone was treated as being the last outpost of the Omniversal Eternity proper before the Outside.
The Superflow is directly stated to be a "higher space" and the "highest level of reality" and beyond the multiverse multiple times, so you're wrong. Sorry 'bout that.

no where does it state it's beyond the multiverse multiple times, beyond the beyond just mean they travel back from the farthest edge of the multiverse. it's a distance thing. and omniversal eternity? do you mean multiversal eternity, I have not heard of the phrase omniversal eternity in comics before.

You need size comparison of deep space, superflow, neutral zone compared to normal multiverse. without size comparison it's just niche realms. without size comparison these realms does not translate to higher level of power, like the beyond realm does. this scan does not address this point at all

https://imgur.com/a/dMs1yQ1

according to Ewing, multiversal eternity is all that is known in marvel. and multiversal eternity is made up of individual universes. these are statement directly by him. so multiversal eternity is a multiverse. and in that multiverse there can be endless realms, pocket universes and other stuff. nobody is denying that. but none of it translate to higher level of existence.

https://imgur.com/t1Uyo7v

https://imgur.com/avx57io

https://imgur.com/lnUYgIV

also this scan really doesn't say much either,

https://imgur.com/6Qzkxyf

we saw hank pym enter the realm of marvel abstracts before. this isn't anything new. being able to perceive reality at highest level does not really mean anything. just like without size comparison, the phrase "higher reality" has been thrown around too many times in comics. how much higher/bigger is it compare to the multiverse itself? that's the argument of this thread really. Do you have example of something like Multiverse being a small boat in a ocean (dark multiverse), or droplet of water in the ocean (beyond realm), or multiverse being the size of a germ (nil), without size comparison we have no way of establish power level

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

I strongly disagree with any notion to downgrade Marvel to tier 2 and tbh this seems like double standards to pick and choose anti-feats or pseudo scaling to suit personal bias rather than objective fact.

 

[Kepekley23]

Please actually read the OP and the post above with all relevant scans if you will. I have provided multiple scans, and proof that the multiverse encompasses realms with infinite higher dimensions, such as the Crossroads of Infinity.

Eternity is made up of universes. Yeah. So what? Read up on the Tiering System and how our higher layers of infinity work. That doesn't contradict anything.

 

[Alonik]

Except the Outside (Oblivion) qualifies for our definitions of an Outerverse and, in the Ultimates specifically, the Neutral Zone was treated as being the last outpost of the Omniversal Eternity proper before the Outside.
The Superflow is directly stated to be a "higher space" and the "highest level of reality" and beyond the multiverse multiple times, so you're wrong. Sorry 'bout that.

--sneep--

In driger-god's text has already been proven about infinity for higher dimensions, this is a point that was solved there with dozens of scans.

 

[MadHATdancing]

Please actually read the OP and the post above with all relevant scans if you will. I have provided multiple scans, and proof that the multiverse encompasses realms with infinite higher dimensions, such as the Crossroads of Infinity.
Eternity is made up of universes. Yeah. So what? Read up on the Tiering System and how our higher layers of infinity work. That doesn't contradict anything.

sigh, look I get there are many mavel fans on the forum who just wants their characters to be 1-A, I don't care either way. But the way you guys are doing it lol, really ignoring source material and getting mad at people who don't agree with your view.

deep space scan

https://imgur.com/GRV7QKZ

no one is questioning marvel having endless dimensions, marvel and dc both have endless dimensions there are countless scans out there proving it. having endless dimensions does not mean each plane of existence infinitly larger than the next. being in the crossroad/nexus of infinite realities isn't anything new either. how does any of this translate to power?

https://imgur.com/a/84pqUI1

and this scan, subspace is just hyperspace or negative zone, I would assume multiversal eternity encompass hyperspace, negative zone etc. both marvel and dc has the concept of hyperspace. these are just alternative regions/dimensions

https://imgur.com/LitOKqH

how does this random scan address mainstream multiverse also contains an infinite amount of higher dimensions within its breadth is well....beyond me....are you sure you posted the right scan? this scan does not match what you said whatsoever

https://imgur.com/mx1ZiOU

abstract battle has always been concepts punching each other for the last 5 decades...infinity eternity LT oblivion are all concepts and when they fight they punch or blast each other

https://imgur.com/3dNBLFf

https://imgur.com/TOBH1v2

the neutral zone is white space boardering the edge of known things, that's the definition by marvel, no need to make more out of it

https://imgur.com/zNbcEgj

disposing beyonders is nothing special, a bomb equivelant to the power of couple hundred universes has exterminated the entire race of them. this is your only scan that discuss how powerful they are

https://i.imgur.com/9w2v4PH.png

Lifebringer tear a hole through the NO-SPACE, back into eternity (multiverse), what does no-space mean to you? it means void


the rest of the scans I already addressed. The scans does not match your posts, you are blowing feats way out of proportion and connecting dots on your own. Even with all this none of the scan showed these niche realms SIZE relation to the mainstream multiverse. if there's no size relation how do you establish power level? essentially the word "higher reality" is meaningless without specific comparison.

 

[Antvasima]

I do not think that the Marvel multiverse is 2-B. There are well-established higher infinities within it, such as Overspace, the Superflow, and the Neutral Zone. I am just very skeptical about all higher dimensions consistently being treated as higher infinities due to a never again referred to obscure scan from an almost 30 years old Doctor Strange comicbook. That is all.

I would also appreciate if you please stop with the accusations. I love many classic Marvel stories. I just strongly dislike the mutilated schizophrenic relentless personal propaganda piece that Joe Quesada, Axel Alonso, and Sana Amanat have turned the franchise into. That is all. But that has to do with my preferences in storytelling, and given how much I like classic Marvel, my opinion of the verse as a whole ends up as neutral on average.

However, that is unrelated to the fact that I find the verse as a whole incredibly inconsistent, and that I also do not at all have the impression that the cosmic entities are presented as anywhere near as powerful as we list them. These are my genuine honest viewpoints regarding the issue, caused by reading several thousand Marvel comicbooks since I was small, and I also have the right to occasionally have an opinion during content revision threads without being accused of deliberately trying to be dishonest and agenda-driven. You should know me well enough by now to recognise that I am almost too honest to a fault, not the other way around.

 

[Kepekley23]

I was not attacking you nor calling you dishonest, but your consistent need to reinforce your distaste for the series's perceived political side comes across as suspect to many people in here, and I have personally seen many people think of such posts as bizarre meme-like rants. That, coupled with the constant shifting between your points of view in this thread, is what set me off. I'd prefer a straightforward debate instead of having every scan I toss at you dismissed as "inconsistent" without so much as a second thought. No person enjoys partaking in this kind of debate.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you. I am not saying that what you post is inconsistent. I am saying that Marvel as a whole has always been inconsistent, even back when the stories were really good, and that we preferably need something that has been more firmly established than one single never again mentioned almost 30 years old scan in order to establish an infinite hierarchy of infinity. That is all.

I also spend almost most of my awake time here, so I do not really have anywhere else to rant whenever I get upset about that my favourite source of entertainment has been so completely destroyed just for the sake of spreading heavily slanted propaganda. I am autistic. I get relentless hangups about things and lack filters. These are common traits. I have tried to greatly cut down on that sort of thing during the last year though.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I support 1-A Omniversal Eternity.

 

[Executor_N0]

@Ant sorry, but I saw a lot of scans used by Driger and a lot of them explains an difference of transcendence between higher and lower realms/layers, with an multidimensional beings begin able to see though all of time because she evolved into an higher plane of existence, the normal realm begin called "the third dimension" and many more examples from Fantastic Four Comics, X-Men Comics, Doctor Strange Comics, Thor Comics and many more. And from both old and new storyline.

So, this is much more than "an single doctor strange storyline from 30 years ago", and "you are trying to fix multiple storylines from different decades to explain something" isn't an problem in any level. If this explanation exists in a lot of comics through all of Marvel history, then this is something consistent, not the other way.

As said before, this whole discussion should be done in two areas. The first to establish what "layers/planes of existence and higher/lower dimensions" are, and the later to establish how many of these layers/planes of existence are.

 

[Driger-God]

Marvel Realms work with "Transfinite levels of power " in existence, transfinite are an form of author work with different levels of infinite power, and exist an infinite number of levels. Superflow is the highest level of existence. Already shown that realms or being of higher realms are much higher than low realms , like divine realms. Lower Dimensions can't support existence higher dimensional being.

All in this interfere in power, because is part of this trasnfinite system, when you have any world with infinite number of dimensional space, you already 1-B, and when exist levels above they, you have Low 1-A

 

[Antvasima]

@Executor

Okay. I know that you are always as unbiased and rational as you can.

Can somebody please list the scans that do not simply mention infinite higher dimensions, but rather that higher dimensions are higher infinities? I am very overworked and have limited time, as usual.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

People have already linked then several times over but instead of analyzing then you simply brought up the inconsistency Boogeyman while also strawmaning arguments with the Dr. Strange false statement, and whenever someone showed up that agreed with you you immediately latched onto their positions. Marcel Threads are exceedingly difficult because of you moving the goalposts and showing severe bias against the series, often by bringing up unrelated politics to detail things.

 

[Antvasima]

I regrettably don't have the time to look through massive amounts of scans. I need somebody to sift through them and list the relevant ones.

 

[Antvasima]

So is somebody willing to help me out with the scans? I would appreciate the help.

 

[MadHATdancing]

lightbuster, it was an accident


Driger God, for the ghost rider scan, we know immortal planes exist in marvel, like hell, asgard etc, doesn't mean they are that impressive tbh.

the other scan, observing the multiverse on infinite level does not translate to having higher infinites and higher level of existence, I'm sure you can see why. "observing" means many things, this statement is too vague.

the shaper of the world scan does not prove anything either, he talks about transinfinite levels existence without any explanation of what they are, they are not defined, what kind of existence is it? in the same scan he described eternity as the embodiement of the cosmos and LT as the judgement the fate of the UNIVERSE

the doctor strange transmultiversal scan only addressed number greater than infinity of universes, that the multiverse is made up by universes and dimensions, it's a known thing, but none of the scan addressed the size comparison of higher dimension compare to the mainstream multiverse, like the beyond realm did

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Let's stick to arguments here.

 

[Alonik]

@MadHATdancing

Please read all other comments.

1. You have ignored that divine plans exist infinitely superior to any mortal kingdom, and the mortal kingdom cannot stand higher existence.

2. This scan is saying that the multiverse has infinite higher dimensions (infinite levels of existences), the part that proves that they are transfinitudes is in the shaper scan, and several others that were posted up there.

3. Again that? Up there in driger's comment he made it clear that plans of existence are called of higher dimensions, eternity being the embodiement of the cosmos and LT the judgement of the fate of the universe changes nothing, you're just talking the obvious of what they are, this does not change anything, in the same way as when you said that a multiverse is made by universes as contradiction, and it is just the obvious.

4. This is redundant, this scan is not even being debated here, has hundreds of scans being debated, and the only one being, is the only one that was even used in the post.

 

[Antvasima]

So is somebody willing to help me out with the scans? I would appreciate the help.

Anyone? It isn't like I am unable to be convinced here. It just takes some work.

Also, I deleted the derailment posts.

 

[Kepekley23]

10 or so posts above.