Marvel Comics: Low 1-A Revision (pt. I)

[Driger-God]

You can see that this point of dimensions beyond and above than lower dimensions appear with regularity. Marvel always had the description of higher dimensions like above lower dimensions.

 

[Antvasima]

The scans about the number of parallel universes seem reliable (Sorry about the confusion. I misread 2017 as 2007.), but the ones talking about the multiverse within the Soul Stone do not appear to offer concrete evidence of infinite higher degrees of reality.

 

[Driger-God]

They are infinitely higher because what is said about the gems. The gem is an 'higher dimensional universe' that contains an 'lower dimensional multiverse', it's literally higher dimensions contain lower dimensional worlds. This is how higher/lower dimensions works there, so it's a diference of scale between the number of dimensions.

 

[Kepekley23]

There is also a pretty recent run from UM that refers to higher dimensions as layers of reality in the quantum structure of the cosmos, each one superimposed upwards over the other. Silver Surfer claims to have traveled "upwards" through 15,000 of said layers.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

I see marvel I click, clicked faster than when my dad left after he found out my mom was having me anyways I agree with this.

 

[Antvasima]

@Driger

A single such higher layer of reality is not proof of an uncountably infinite amount of them.

@Kepekley23

But wouldn't that further contradict the higher dimensions being treated as higher infinities within Marvel Comics? I mean, you would probably have to agree that a 1-B Silver Surfer who is around 15000 degrees above baseline seems extremely suspect.

 

[Kepekley23]

Siler Surfer isn't 1-B, nor is any character simply for being able to perceive higher dimensions. That's just good Cosmic Awareness.

And you missed the point entirely. Even if that were a 1-B SS scan, the outlier would be on him, not on the dimensions.

 

[Driger-God]

@Antvasima
I never said that in this scan have a infinites higher dimensions or "layer". My intention was prove that high dimensions in marvel are above than lower dimensions....

You questioned the consistence of high dimensions in Marvel Multiverse, mentioning that the last time that the multiverse was worked with "high dimensions" infinite above than lower dimensions, was in Doctor Strange...

 

[Antvasima]

@Kepekley23

Well, my point is just that it does not seem like we have any proof for that Marvel currently considers higher dimensions as higher infinities. In fact I have mentioned some direct massive contradictions to that in this thread.

@Driger

The multiverse contained within the Soul Gem is not lower-dimensional, especially given that the regular universe is only spatially 3D, just very tiny, corresponding to the size of the Gem itself.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, I still do not think that your scan for the Silver Surfer seems to imply that these 15000 layers of reality are higher infinities.

 

[Kepekley23]

The Great Old Ones are clarified to be higher-dimensional entities and they are clearly treated as incomprehensible, eldritch abominations lying outside even the conceptualization of normal human minds exactly due to their "many angles" - just like the original Mythos, so you're clearly incorrect when you claim the idea is not consistent.

The idea of universes being contained inside higher ones also stems from Brane Cosmology (and Marvel has mentioned Branes several times; one such instance was when a quantum comologist studying Yggdrasil stated that the Multiverse was a composite of many different cosmological views, one of which was Brane Cosmology), and Branes are quite clearly fit to be higher levels of reality in Ultima's new system.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that seems more reliable.

I still find it very contradictory that destroying and recreating the entire multiverse was achieved simply by getting rid of or adding universes though.

 

[Antvasima]

Still, any higher-dimensional object is innately incomprehensible to visualisation by human minds, so that also seems very uncertain to automatically refer ot higher infinities.

 

[Antvasima]

And the regular Marvel characters are clearly not higher-dimensional, so the Soul Gem multiverse simply seems much smaller due to the containing size of the gem itself, not due to being lower-dimensional.

 

[Kepekley23]

> I still find it very contradictory that destroying and recreating the entire multiverse was achieved simply by getting rid of or adding universes though.

When was this even implied to be the case? First the Beyonders killed off all Abstract Entities and then used the Molecule Man as a bomb to annihilate the last remnants of reality. Nothing implies they merely went around busting universes; that was just a fraction of what they actually did.

 

[ZeedKZ]

I agree with this

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

I wholeheartedly agree here.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the entire focus in the "Time Runs Out" event was that the Beyonders caused all universes to collide against and destroy each other, after which the Living Tribunal got involved, to defend them, but yes, they also slaughtered the other abstract and cosmic entities, except for Death and Oblivion, so I suppose that your interpretation might have merit.

 

[LordWhis]

I suppose so, but the differences are very extreme here, give that we rate them as an infinity^infinity above their usual levels.

Technically yes but in terms of how big we perceive the difference to be- not really, which is why 9b and 4B are 20 tiers apart but high 1b and low 1a are only 1 tier apart. It's a much bigger outlier for a wall level character to demonstrate solar system level power than a universal character to demonstrate multiversal power.

 

[Antvasima]

I do not buy your reasoning that a character that is regularly at best portrayed at universal power being interpreted as an infinity^uncountable infinity number of times greater than that would remotely be less unreliable than a 9-B to 4-B difference. We should see the actual numerical differences involved, not the tiers that we use out of convenience and necessity.

 

[LordWhis]

We use tiering like this because this is how the human brain works. You have to look beyond the math sometimes. The reason are tiers become bigger and bigger as we go up the tier list is because as a character becomes stronger and stronger we get used to them being at an insane level of power (if this makes sense) so a further increase seems less significant. While the difference between building level and continent level is smaller, to our mind it feels like a bigger difference. Authors think the same way. Once a character gets to a certain level l it is almost expected that they go even further. The increases seems smaller and smaller. Which was why throughout all of DB Goku barely went up in power at all but in DBZ he regularly got huge increases. It's just the way the human brain works really.

Think about this-

Many universal characters have been upgraded to multiverses for one feat. If you tried to upgrade a 9b character to a 4B based on one feat, you'd be laughed away with people saying that it's a huge outlier.

An author will think 100 times before turning a city buster into a continent buster but he won't think nearly as much to turn a star buster into a solar system buster. This is amplified when he's considering a high 1b character to a low 1a character. These bigger and bigger power differences start feeling small to him. What's one more infinity he'll think, they're already stacked up. The difference between 99 x infinity and 100 x infinity somehow feels irrationally smaller than 5 kilotons and 1 gigaton. Writers start getting impatient with their own power increases and create time skips and whatnot.

There was a post the other day speculating when DB heroes characters would be upgraded from 2b to 2a, I can't imagine someone speculating about when Tokyo ghoul characters will be upgraded from 8c to 5B even though the difference is infinitely smaller but the perceived difference is so much higher.

Sorry for the long post, got a teeny bit carried away.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I continue to strongly maintain that we should not follow extremely irrational/illogical conventions. Sorry.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, we use less tiers higher up because we cannot properly gauge differences in the degree of infinity in any better available manner. Our system works that way for the sake of convenience, as I mentioned earlier.

 

[LordWhis]

We already do, as I said characters are bumped from universe level to multiverse level all the time. When was the last time a character was bumped from 9b to 4B ? The only example I can think of is Gandalf and he has now been downgraded to 6B because his tier 4 feat was too much of an outlier. Demonstrating my point.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, that should have depended on how convincing and consistent the evidence is. In any case, we should definitely not strive towards irrationality simply because you find it more consistent to do so.

 

[LordWhis]

It is less irrationality in the power scaling and more irrationality in how the author's mind and the human mind in general works.

 

[Antvasima]

That may or may not be, as it depends from case to case, but it is not a good procedure or principle for us to go by at all.

 

[Kepekley23]

• Alternatively, this tier can also be assigned to characters who transcend High 1-B structures when no further context regarding the nature or such transcendence is give

Eternity, the Neutral Zone and the Superflow more than fit the description and they in turn scale to most other abstracts. In fact, some of the feats I'm pegging as Low 1-A can be interpreted as 1-A, such as the aforementioned destruction of the Superflow. This is not to mention the Far Shore, which has blatant 1-A descriptions yet is inside Multiversal Eternity's self.

 

[Antvasima]

I am very uneasy with this. It mostly seems extremely exaggerated and very unreliable to me. How can we ascertain that the Superflow and the Neutral Zone are not just a higher step of infinity? We do not even seem to have concrete evidence of all higher dimensions being generally treated as higher infinities in the first place.

 

[Driger-God]

Ant, what you are doing right now is pure nitpicking.


This whole thing can be divided in simply two topics

1) What the Higher Dimensions/Layers/Planes of Reality are in the Marvel Cosmology


2) The number of these Higher Dimensions/Layers/Planes of Reality


The first point is to know if there's an diference in scale between lower and higher worlds.


This is where scans like the ones in the Doctor Strange comics or the one with the Soul Stone fits in. It's said that in an "higher world" contains "lower worlds", like the Soul Stone that is an higher dimensional jewelry that contains an lower dimensional universe, or the explanation about dimensions as transfinites, or literally every scan that talks about the differences between an mortal and a god where is always said that gods exists in "higher world" and operates in "infinitely higher levels than the mortal mind" and that they are able to see reality with "infinite levels", etc.

It's consistent that the diference between the planes of reality are in fact diferences between higher/lower dimensions as we work with.


After it's established what these planes of reality are, we can work with the number of them. And this is where all these scans about "infinite levels of reality", "infinite planes of reality" or "infinite dimensional reality" fits with the idea that Marvel is an infinite dimensional cosmos.


Now talking about "Outliers". I will be honest, any instance of an "non-cosmic character" that is used to say that Infinite Dimensional marvel is false, doesn't work. Even if the cosmic characters were only Low 2-C, the interaction would already be an outlier. So an "4-B character" affecting an "High 1-B cosmic entity" doesn't matter more than the same occurring with an "low 2-C cosmic entity". These would simply be outliers that shouldn't affect the cosmology of Marvel Comics in any level. The reason for these instances being outliers are exactly so they aren't going to affect the consistency of our profiles, so they shouldn't matter.


But the difference between the planes of reality is something consistent between the various ages of Marvel Comics (Even more with these explanations being used to explain the nature of gods and other cosmic entities), so there's no point to say that this is an "outlier cosmology" simply because not every explanation about the multiverse is "there is this infinitely dimensional cosmos made of infinite layers of reality each one contain their own set of infinite universes that exists between these higher and lower dimensional layers". There'll be characters saying that the multiverse is "an infinite number of parallel universes", because this is what an multiverse is in its essence and should not be used to say that every other explanation of the multiverse is an "outlier cosmology".


Marvel Multiverse The Marvel Multiverse works with a system oflayers /planes of existence, these planes/layer are said to be higher andlower realms whose diference is of transcendence/transfinite levels , these levels are every level of reality. And withing this system, Marvel works with an infinite number of these layers/planes of existence .


But even this entire system is an fraction of the totality of the Marvel Multiverse, inside the Eternity, exists an sea of primordial nothingnessand statements says that there's realms that exists outside the realms of time, space, infinity and beyond .

Other World

Other World is a part of Eternity and it encompass every aspects of space and time , and exists above them where all the dimensions on the multiverse are crystals , this place should be at least Low 1-A, inside there all of space and time exists as a simple game board .


Divine realm

Divine Realities are higher planes of existence , existing above and beyond our own level of being . Gods like the Asgardians changes their bodies when they cross these dimensions, their divinity exists in an scale of infinite, even their minds are projected to work with infinite and beyond . The gods are manifestations of conceptsand they exists separated from the mortal realm by barriers that separates reality from myth , and when their enter in the lower planes their power starts to diminish .

They can access lowerandhigher dimensions, altering their size . In fact their divinity transcends dimensions and are able to touch infinite, higher existences and in fact gods in the other universes are simply avatars, their power crosses time and space to crate an avatar , but all of them are linked to an unique essence that is what these gods are really like . But there's an infinite number of these avatar that they use , and the gods existis as an concept in every plane of existence and in every time as an myth of our collective reality, and in fact their exists in an world beyond the concepts of time and space , beyond every human scale of space-time .


Gods like Seth and Odin had threaten the entire multiverse, infinite planes of time and space, and "Classic Thor" don't use "plane of reality" simply merely to parallel universes, higher dimensions like Dormarmmu real are said to be an different plane of reality .

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Bump.

@Driger While I agree with you on essentially everything you said. I mean, are you sure you are only supporting Tier 1 Multi-Abstracts or something else ontop of that ?

I also agree the Multi-Abstracts aren't the only ones with Avatars. There are outright statements throughout fiction that non-Abstracts make avatar, especially with Quasar involving Anthromorpho, the literal support system for Avatars across all of Creation.

I was also one of the few who stated Multi-Eternity likely qualified for 1-A due to Ultimates years before being considered by knowledgeable staff.

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

I disagree with the idea that the aspect of Oblivion mentioned by Dormammu in Defenders is actually part of the Multiversal Eternity ("Multi-Eternity" is a headcanon term). We are never shown whether it is or not.

 

[Driger-God]

This is Eternity heart, not "oblivion aspect"

"The core! The very heart of Eternity' being! Here... All energy, all matter, lies sleeping in its unmanifest state! " This "void" is where the heart of Eternity exist, is a part of him.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

i read through the thread and i do agree that marvel should have low 1-A due to kepes reasoning

and as for marvels inconsistencies

why are we trying to treat them as this big thing when litreally every other verse has smilar level inconsistencies to marvel?

dc current and past runs had a lot of big inconsistencies like for example prepetua needing to gather up power to destroy a single universe even though she alone is more powerful then all 3 of her sons each of who is 2A is a good example of this. Yet for some reason we treat marvels inconsistencies as the end all be all.

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

Incorrect.

1. Every formless void before creation is an aspect of Oblivion. It even states that this void precedes the birth of Form itself, which logically makes it impossible for the Seventh Multiverse's Eternity to encompass.

2. Eternity's heart, and thus Eternity's 'being' is located withi - inside the void. This is explicitly stated.

• "I will descend into the oceanic void that precedes the birth of form----and, beneath the waves of eternal nothingness, detonate Eternity's heart"

Also, "Unmanifest" in philosophy is;

• The pure and formless ground from which Creation arises

Which is, word-by-word, a description of an aspect of Oblivion.

So;

• 1. Eternity is said to be located withi this void and thus it can not logically scale to it

• 2. Dormammu traveled to this formless 1-A void to absorb [the dead] Eternity's heart, which sprung out of the void itself.

While I agree that the 8th Omniverse's Eternity is 1-A, the Seventh's is most likely not.

 

[Alonik]

@ParadoxIndifferent In your text there now, you just forgot to point out that Dormammu anyway was descending into eternity's heart. You cut the "--The Core! The very heart of eternity's being! Here... All Energy, All Matter, Lies sleeping in its unmanifest state!"

from

"I will descend into the oceanic void that precedes the birth of form----and, beneath the waves of eternal nothingness, detonate Eternity's heart"

The conjugation is not separated, all this emptiness is still inside and is the heart of Eternity.

By cutting this, you changed the expression of this void being inside her heart, to "Eternity's 'being' is located within - inside the void."

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

Except that is not true. Read it carefully.

First of all, Dormammu describes the heart of Eternity to the audience. He clarifies that it's the core of Eternity, where everything is lying and sleeping in its pre-creation state.

He then clarifies that, in order to reach the core, he will descend into the oceanic void, and then go UNDERNEATH the eternal nothingness to detonate Eternity's heart and remake Creation in his image.

This explicitly shows that Eternity's heart is located inside the void and does not encompass it.

 

[Driger-God]

Dormammu descend into the oceanic void beauce the oceanic void is Eternity Heart himself. The scan start talking about dimensional structure of Eternity. "Worlds within worlds! Dimensions golding into themselves! Entire universes being born and collapsing into ruin" After Dormammu realize that this is a fraction of Eternity "And yet I sense that all this -- Is but the merest fraction of what Eternity is!" Heart of Eternity was not in dimensional world, then Dormammu decide reach Heart of Eternity.

And describe the Heart.

"All Energy, all matter, lies in it's unmanifest state! I will descend into oceanic void that precedes the birth form" = The Heart of Eternity Then Dormammu detonate Eternity Heart(Void) that exist within Eternity and that is part of him to recreate the creation. All description in this scan is about Eternity.

Oblivion is where Dormammu was before of descend to "Eternity body", and don't have any relation with Eternity Heart here.

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

Yes, and then he states that he will go underneath said void, where the heart of Eternity was located. The heart in this situation being the umanifest structure which had birthed Eternity itself - he would absorb it and recreate the Multiverse in his image.

You are interpreting it as something inside Eternity proper. It's not. It's outside Eternity. Before it was even created.

 

[Driger-God]

Eternity Heart must be 1-A. Heart exist above and beyond all dimensional structure, even worlds like Other World would be a fraction of this Heart. Oblivion must scale above the Eternity Heart. Oblivion possibly High 1-A?