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Instead of Dormammu Cyttorak should be there since dormammu has to invoke/pray to cyttorak to use his magic spells and bands and cyttorak is way above dormammu.
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Marvel Comics: Low 1-A Revision (pt. I)
- Thread starter Kepekley23
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Cyttorak doesn't scale to the version of Dormammu that would become Low 1-A though.
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Which version of dormammu is that? And cyttorak has used his own powers to prevented oblivion and eternity from killing juggernaut on separate occasions and juggernaut using the spells of cyttorak was able to beat nightmare amped by eternity
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Dormammu amped by the Cosmic Axis/Dormammu with the power of Multi-Eternity. Cyttorak doesn't scale to that.
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1) Do we have any proof that the Neutral Zone truly conceptually transcends such a hierarchy, rather than just being another step above it, or that the 8th multiverse even has infinite dimensions that are each treated as higher infinities?Kepekley23 said:
2) It isn't unrealistic. Most people who powerscale Marvel comicbooks do so from a limited number of out of context scans that they found on the Internet. I have actually read several thousands of them, which has resulted in me getting a perspective regarding the enormous inconsistencies between decades, writers, and editors. I am unlikely to just suddenly get rid of this experience/viewpoint given how deeply ingrained it is in me. My apologies.
3) Jason Quantrell, who may or may not have been a Beyonder, appeared in Captain America and the Mighty Avengers, a few months before Jonathan Hickman's Secret Wars story, if I remember correctly.
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Please explain/elaborate regarding what the First Firmament said, as I have forgotten. I also don't understand how it makes any sense for the 7th multiverse, which had infinite universes, to be weaker than the 8th, which has a little over a thousand according to the current Fantastic Four comicbook.Kepekley23 said:
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Evolving does not remotely automatically mean growing infinitely stronger, just changing, as was shown with the different conceptual themes for the different multiverses when they showed up at the end of the Ultimates story.
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Irrelevant. It still disproves your idea that the multiverse somehow went from something that encompassed infinite-dimensional space to a few thousand universes. The Eighth Omniverse is an evolved version of the Seventh.
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Also, Eternity does indeed conceptually transcend all realms inside it, even its very own abstract forces. In fact, the First Firmament nearly deceived Eternity into accidentally destroying the Superflow, which would have erased all Conceptual Entities from the Omniverse, and Eternity itself wouldn't have even noticed their disappearance at first.
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"Alternatively, this tier can also be assigned to characters who transcend High 1-B structures when no further context regarding the nature or such transcendence is given."Kepekley23 said:
From Low 1-A's description.
It doesn't say anything about conceptual transcendence. Just no context for transcending a High 1-B structure. You're thinking of straight up 1-A.
"Characters who can significantly affect, create and/or destroy realms or states that fully transcend infinitely-layered hierarchies and/or dimensional levels on a conceptual or existential level.
From 1-A's description.
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You're correct about that. I was going to edit that post anyway.
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Alright. It just caught me off-guard when I read that.
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But it isn't my idea. It was stated outright that Franklin was recreating the multiverse and that he had only created a bit over a thousand universes when his powers burned out.Kepekley23 said:
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Anyway, do you agree that the 8th iteration was not stated to be superior, and that the guardian of the Neutral Zone banished the possible Beyonder during the 7th iteration?
Also, do we actually have any proof of that the Neutral Zone and the Superflow transcend the rest of the multiverse to a Low 1-A degree?
Also, do we actually have any proof of that the Neutral Zone and the Superflow transcend the rest of the multiverse to a Low 1-A degree?
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No, I completely disagree with your idea and have seen those arguments many times before when debating Marvel.
"Evolving" is a blatant statement that it is superior. Saying otherwise contradicts scans you yourself put forth in this thread, considering Ultimates 2 shows each new Omniverse inheriting the characteristics of the old. In fact, the High 1-B Crossroads of Infinity were built by the Sixth Omniverse, and they were in turn inherited by the Multiversal Eternity of the seventh. So considering the Eight Cosmos to be anything less than High 1-B in complexity at the very, barest minimum assumption is nonsensical at best.
Considering the fact that the Living Tribunal of the Eighth Omniverse is not implied in any way to be inferior to the original entity (with the Infinity Finale in fact heavily implying it to be superior to the Beyonders), yet it is still just an aspect of the Multiversal Eternity from the Eighth Cosmos, the idea that the Eighth Cosmos is not stronger - let alone weaker, as you are pushing above - is false (to put it lightly)
"Evolving" is a blatant statement that it is superior. Saying otherwise contradicts scans you yourself put forth in this thread, considering Ultimates 2 shows each new Omniverse inheriting the characteristics of the old. In fact, the High 1-B Crossroads of Infinity were built by the Sixth Omniverse, and they were in turn inherited by the Multiversal Eternity of the seventh. So considering the Eight Cosmos to be anything less than High 1-B in complexity at the very, barest minimum assumption is nonsensical at best.
Considering the fact that the Living Tribunal of the Eighth Omniverse is not implied in any way to be inferior to the original entity (with the Infinity Finale in fact heavily implying it to be superior to the Beyonders), yet it is still just an aspect of the Multiversal Eternity from the Eighth Cosmos, the idea that the Eighth Cosmos is not stronger - let alone weaker, as you are pushing above - is false (to put it lightly)
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As for the Beyonder of the seventh Omniverse, while I'll give you that much, the Eighth Omniverse's Neutral Zone was shown to encompass the Beyond Realm, so it's a moot argument.
> Multi-Eternity transcends them, yes, agreed, but Al Ewing stopped calling the Marvel multiverse an omniverse after I and others explained to him what the term really means.
What does my personal usage of the term "Omniverse" to describe Eternity have to do with literally anything about the point I made?
How does this even remotely disprove what I said?
> Multi-Eternity transcends them, yes, agreed, but Al Ewing stopped calling the Marvel multiverse an omniverse after I and others explained to him what the term really means.
What does my personal usage of the term "Omniverse" to describe Eternity have to do with literally anything about the point I made?
How does this even remotely disprove what I said?
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I have only read the OP and not yet scoured through the replies, but I agree with the initial argument as it stands.
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Look, my main point is just that there doesn't seem to be any concrete proof of the 8th iteration being an entire tier higher than the 7th. The First Firmament was just a large single universe and still presented as stronger than Multi-Eternity, and was in turn overpowered by the multiverse that invented magic. The Crossroads of Infinity do not seem to factor into the raw power of the multiverses.
As for the term omniverse, that is just a personal tick of mine. It has little to do with this discussion.
As for the term omniverse, that is just a personal tick of mine. It has little to do with this discussion.
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But it isn't exactly one tier higher than the 7th? The Multiversal Abstracts between the 7th and 8th Omniverses would be the same tier, they'd just be considerably stronger than their past iterations.
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Okay, but why should we consider the superflow and the Neutral Zone to automatically be an uncountable order of infinities above an infinite-dimensional multiverse, rather than just higher orders of infinity, and that's it?
Mind you, I strongly doubt that Marvel as a whole considers higher dimensions as infinitely superior to lower ones, but nevertheless.
Mind you, I strongly doubt that Marvel as a whole considers higher dimensions as infinitely superior to lower ones, but nevertheless.
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The Superflow is outright stated to be the highest level of reality ever attainable by Galactus, and the plane where reality and dreams intersect and the conceptual form of the Abstracts resides in. This obviously makes it completely transcendental in comparison to Deep Space, which contains High 1-B realms within its expanse.
The Neutral Zone is outright stated to be completely beyond all of this, and the absolute last fathomable layer of Eternity. Beyond it there's only the Outside. It doesn't even have a conceivable "form".
The Neutral Zone is outright stated to be completely beyond all of this, and the absolute last fathomable layer of Eternity. Beyond it there's only the Outside. It doesn't even have a conceivable "form".
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Also, I thought you agreed that Multiversal Eternity was shown to be conceptually transcendental to the realms inside it earlier.
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The Eighth Omniverse's Eternity being Low 1-A is a lowball at best. It has several 1-A descriptions in the most recent comics. Aside from the feat you yourself mentioned of the destruction of the Superflow - the dreamspace which literally housed the highest possible level of all concepts in the multiverse - having no noticeable effect on a weakened Eternity, the Far Shore is a 1-A realm completely beyond the very concepts of space and time and it's located inside the Multiversal Eternity's self.
And before anyone gives me ol' tired "Eternity is a construct of space and time" stuff:
And before anyone gives me ol' tired "Eternity is a construct of space and time" stuff:
- 1. So is Father Time.
- 2. There is such a thing as simultaneously containing and transcending concepts.
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Literally just mentioned the feats.
If you're looking for the literal comics, Avengers: No Road Home, Loki, Ultimates 2, Valkyrie: Jane Foster are a few examples.
The Ultimates's depiction of the Neutral Zone as the last layer of Eternity was recently retconned; the Far Shore is the new last layer of Eternity, and it is a 1-A void - described as beyond all time, all space, life and death, and exiled from the concept of existence itself. Beyond it, it's only Outside/Mystery.
Even the pre-retcon Eighth Omniverse had 1-A feats though, since, as Kep mentioned in passing above, the Superflow was the highest possible layer of reality, containing all concepts within it, and its destruction would have gone unnoticed by Eternity, meaning Eternity is conceptually beyond the highest possible extensions of the concepts of space and time, which is 1-A word-by-word.
If you're looking for the literal comics, Avengers: No Road Home, Loki, Ultimates 2, Valkyrie: Jane Foster are a few examples.
The Ultimates's depiction of the Neutral Zone as the last layer of Eternity was recently retconned; the Far Shore is the new last layer of Eternity, and it is a 1-A void - described as beyond all time, all space, life and death, and exiled from the concept of existence itself. Beyond it, it's only Outside/Mystery.
Even the pre-retcon Eighth Omniverse had 1-A feats though, since, as Kep mentioned in passing above, the Superflow was the highest possible layer of reality, containing all concepts within it, and its destruction would have gone unnoticed by Eternity, meaning Eternity is conceptually beyond the highest possible extensions of the concepts of space and time, which is 1-A word-by-word.
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Anyway, I'm fine with a Low 1-A Eternity as a good initial lowball. On the other hand, while I am obviously pretty thankful with Ant due to him having helped me in a situation of dire need, I heavily disagree with his view.
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I agree with @ParadoxIndifferent' about far shore.'
Not only in Avengers: No Surrender to Avengers: No Road Home, it is said that the far shore is the edge of the multiverse and is part of it, but in Jane Foster's latest comic says so.
the far shore is totally dimensionless and timeless
So it fits fully, since a part of the far shore is dimensionless and timeless because of mystery, but it's still not the outside (as Ewing responded on twitter).
So if we're going to put True Eternity to 1-A will scale just to
and the weapon of the celestials is PIS in my conception, since this only appeared in the story as plot device for Ewing to tell the story of the iterations.
The other Ultimates don't scale this because it's a simple question, as Kepekley23 said every time an iteration die and born into a new it grows more, and the Far Shore is only present in the eighth multiverse.
Not only in Avengers: No Surrender to Avengers: No Road Home, it is said that the far shore is the edge of the multiverse and is part of it, but in Jane Foster's latest comic says so.
- Jane foster threw Heimdall beyond the far shore in a place called Mystery
- Mephisto confirmed that what lies beyond the far shore is the mystery/beyond/outside)
the far shore is totally dimensionless and timeless
So it fits fully, since a part of the far shore is dimensionless and timeless because of mystery, but it's still not the outside (as Ewing responded on twitter).
So if we're going to put True Eternity to 1-A will scale just to
and the weapon of the celestials is PIS in my conception, since this only appeared in the story as plot device for Ewing to tell the story of the iterations.
The other Ultimates don't scale this because it's a simple question, as Kepekley23 said every time an iteration die and born into a new it grows more, and the Far Shore is only present in the eighth multiverse.
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WTF is "8th Multiverse Eternity only has a few thousand universes" thing? They state it plenty of times on Ultimates alone, to say nothing of like every Marvel book ever released in any era of time, that the multiverse has infinite universes. The number of parallel universes in Marvel being infinite has always been 100% consistently described as infinite, even you must admit that THAT is a consistent piece of cosmology.
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First there's the "DC having only 6 dimensions", and then "Marvel having only a few thousand universes?" We really can't catch a break with all these "Cosmology theories."
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Well, I just don't get why this should remotely qualify for being an infinity^an uncountable infinity number of times greater than all of reality underneath it. I thought that our new standards would be much stricter regarding that sort of thing.Kepekley23 said:
I do obviously agree about that Multi-Eternity is the sum totality of all the layers of reality within him, but not anything more than that.
I also do not think that we should use an offhanded never again mentioned reference from an obscure early 1990s Doctor Strange comicbook to scale all of something as absolutely massive as Marvel Comics continuity from, in terms of higher dimensions being higher infinities. We should preferably use some sort of official editorial acknowledgement similarly to Grant Morrison's DC multiverse map.
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Basically, the Marvel multiverse was destroyed during the "Time Runs Out" Avengers/Secret Wars event simply by colliding all universes against each other, and was then rebuilt simply by creating a little over a thousand universes, and this happened in a far more prominent and officially accepted storyline than an obscure Doctor Strange comicbook from nearly 30 years ago.
As such, I can certainly buy realms such as the Superflow and Neutral Zone being higher infinities than the regular multiverse, but it seems very exaggerated and unreliable to claim that they automatically reach a infinity^uncountable infinity number of times higher. The Marvel cosmic entities officially simply aren't portrayed as anywhere near that powerful
As such, I can certainly buy realms such as the Superflow and Neutral Zone being higher infinities than the regular multiverse, but it seems very exaggerated and unreliable to claim that they automatically reach a infinity^uncountable infinity number of times higher. The Marvel cosmic entities officially simply aren't portrayed as anywhere near that powerful
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Tell that Marvel Multiverse have only a thousand universes no make sense Actually, Marvel Multiverse is Infinite, an universe to each possibilite, trilllions and trillions of universes, uncountably universes parallel, possibly infinite, we have many mentions of infinite universes, infinite futures and past, infinite possibilites .-1.(2017-2019)
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All scans are after S.W e birth of 8th MultiverseAntvasima said:
Even considering the Franklin creation, universes born naturally , one universe for each chose or possibilite, infinite possibilities and universes exist , in each moment a uncontably universes bor(Spider-Verse 2019), existing an infinite multiverse.
And higher dimensions are currently shown to be infinitely higher than the lower universes. An higher dimensional universe has an multiverse within it , this is an example of how higher dimensions encompass and are above lower dimensions (In context are the gems, but the focus is in as the high dimensions are work)
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