Marvel Comics: Low 1-A Revision (pt. I)

[Hykuu]

I disagree with some of the reasoning but the conclusion remains the same which I agree with.

The real disagreement is when the Oblivion and RKT shit drops

 

[LordWhis]

Marvel has used the word transfinite (a synonym of countably infinite) on occasions therefore it is very likely that when the word infinite is used it is intended to mean uncountably infinite.

 

[Alonik]

Sub-Space is a part of Negative Zone-2.
Crossroad too

So negative zone and subspace remains high 1-B.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

First off, I never really got why Subspace never was used to equal Hyperspace, since according to the directory : "Reed Richards' initial investigations into the mysteries of sub-space [which is where the Crossroads are at] led him to the discovery of the Negative Zone. Sub-Space is also called Hyperspace." . And since Hyperstorm is connected / one with it, shouldn't he get an upgrade from it since this isn't the only time this is hinted towards ?

Also, what the heck is wrong with Rune King Thor ?

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

I agree with the upgrade. You forgot the Phoenix Force though...

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I seem to be outvoted here. I still think that the Marvel cosmic entities are almost consistently portrayed at a far more limited scale than we portray them at though.

 

[LordWhis]

Well, I seem to be outvoted here. I still think that the Marvel cosmic entities are almost consistently portrayed at a far more limited scale than we portray them at though.

That can be said for most marvel characters. Heck, it can be said for most characters. Mario doesn't exactly go around star-busting.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose so, but the differences are very extreme here, give that we rate them as an infinity^infinity above their usual levels.

 

[Zensum]

Sub-Space is a part of Negative Zone-2.

Crossroad too

You're first scan seems to confirm the opposite. The wording is "the Negative Zone *of* limitless subspace" meaning, the Negative Zone is within/a part of subspace, not the other way around.

The second scan is stuff we already knew. Just says Reed found the negative zone.

Third scan, the FF is already in the Negative Zone and that is a portal to Subspace/crossroads of infinity which they need to get to a newly created universe/Beyonder's home in SW3. Not the crossroads being in the NZ itself.

The crossroads are explicitly what was stated earlier. Where it's just a pathway to infinite universes/dimensions. I'm pretty sure there's a fairly lengthy Hulk arc about the crossroads that backs this up as well.

Can we please not bring up this whole "Let's downgrade Marvel to Tier 2!" shitck to this thread too? I get that it's your thing but it's getting tiresome.

So this is from ghost rider 2099, the only hint as to which layer they're transcending to is that it's self defining, which would imply the Superflow or something similar. Though I really doubt this was the intent, since the superflow is from a completely different continuity and author from decades later. I guess if we are trying to tie together decades of disparate, mostly unconnected stories and interpretations, then that's what it'd probably means.

 

[Antvasima]

I still agree with Zensum, especially about that we are "trying to tie together decades of disparate, mostly unconnected stories and interpretations".

 

[Jimboydejuan12]

You forgot The One Above All.

im Speaking Zako.

Well guess not pulled Except for The One Above All.

 

[Driger-God]

"Negative Zone of limitless sub-space" doesn't mean something like sub-space>negative zone. Or Negative Zone within Sub-Space. The idea is Negative Zone have an sub-space infinite. You are imposing your interpretation...

The Crossroad is within the negative zone in the last scan.

 

[Alonik]

Sub-Space is a part of Negative Zone-2.

Crossroad too

You're first scan seems to confirm the opposite. The wording is "the Negative Zone *of* limitless subspace" meaning, the Negative Zone is within/a part of subspace, not the other way around.

On the scan is saying the negative zone has an limitless sub-space, is spoken even of the areas in the negative zone before that.

 

[Zensum]

"Negative Zone of limitless sub-space" doesn't mean something like sub-space>negative zone. Or Negative Zone within Sub-Space. The idea is Negative Zone have an sub-space infinite. You are imposing your interpretation...

The Crossroad is within the negative zone in the last scan.

We have an explicit definition of what the Negative Zone, Subspace/Crossroads are as shown in my first post, nothing to interpret. From the crossroads you can travel to any place including the NZ.

Again, your last scan with context is just a portal from the NZ to crossroads so they can get to another place.

 

[Alonik]

We had your interpretation of the scan in FF #51, not an explicit explanation.

Even there in heimdall vision says exactly what Driger-God said, which you evaded and did not answer now.

 

[Zensum]

We had your interpretation of the scan in FF #51, not an explicit explanation.

Even there in heimdall vision says exactly what Driger-God said, which you evaded and did not answer now.

I posted the scan for what the Negative Zone is. The other scan is in the OP as explained in my first post.

Already addressed the wording, that scan isn't saying the NZ encapsulates subspace.

 

[Alonik]

In the scan is literally saying that the negative zone has a limitless sub-space.

From the edge of the terrifying distortion zone to the deadly exploding atmosphere of the anti-matter area, he seaches the remote frontier bordering the negative zone of limitless sub-space.

You're misinterpreting this, saying the negative zone is within the subspace. But in scan clearly says it is the negative zone of limitless sub-space.

 

[HostessSpidey]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's saying "the negative zone [filled with] limitless sub-space". I could ask some of the guys on the DC wiki who know a lot more about this, but I feel it makes it pretty clear it has the sub space inside it.

 

[Zensum]

@Alonik That's what the "of" wording means... The Negative Zone of subspace. Subspace being the crossroads. Part of the whole. It's what the word means. The NZ is an antimatter universe as defined above.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Yeah, I'm in agreement with Zensum on this. Even a quick google search tells you this.

 

[LordWhis]

To be fair it could also mean the negative zone area inside unlimited sub space.

I'd recommend asking someone who was young in the 60s to read it and give their opinion.

Though the use of the word unlimited makes me think it did mean it was made up of sub-space. If there was no unlimited I'd think it meant negative zone part of sub-space.

 

[Kepekley23]

Just woke up, going to take a look at & address everything shortly.

 

[Kepekley23]

Also from the way I'm seeing things I'm not sure I get how Eternity can contain the Neutral Zone but still be weaker than Beyonders.

It is not. The Eighth Omniverse and its abstracts are far more powerful than the Seventh Omniverse's, period. Even the First Firmament states as much.

 

[Kepekley23]

All of this Subspace debate is wholly irrelevant, considering the Crossroads of Infinity are just one part of the Subspace. It in no way changes the point.

 

[LordWhis]

Wait, do all the omniverses have their own sets of abstracts now ? This is going to be absolutey terrible from a scaling standpoint.

On a side note- I'm still not 100% on their being multiple versions of the phoenix force and it might indeed be stronger than the other abstracts so unknown or something like that seems best, it's not like the other abstracts at all so it being treated like them is not correct, it's more closely related to TOAA somehow.

Completely off-topic-Speaking of TOAA, Does the higher key of TOAA have to be 1A ? Can't it be high 1a or maybe even 0 ?

Back on topic, are there even universal versions of the abstracts at all ? This is something many in the marvel fandom dispute, saying that that was in literally one comic and there is no proof other writers agree with this. It's sort of like the Thanosi thing- one writer says the character beat Thanos, the other says no it was Thanosi... who are you going to agree with ?

Our universal versions of the abstracts are multiversal strangely enough, make of that what you will, maybe the 2a feats were performed by the multiversal versions ? and they were just not refered to as multi-.... ? Maybe varies with m-bodies may be better ?

 

[Kepekley23]

1. The idea that the Phoenix Force is related to TOAA was only referred to in a single statement by Uatu in the 70s, and he later took back his statement and confirmed that the Force was much weaker than that. The abstract closest to TOAA (in terms of knowledge, not power) in the more recent issues is the Molecule Man, who is stated by Reed Richards to be a demiurge of somesort, if I recall correctly.

2. Considering the existence of the House of Ideas, TOAA might be High 1-A, though I am unsure about that and am still debating that issue privately

3. I ask you not to derail this thread & focus solely on the Multiversal Abstracts for the time being.

 

[LordWhis]

I mean they are the same characters and what I'm talking about is how we can tell whether the abstract in a certain issue is the multiversal one or the universal one, etc so I think it is quite relevant.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I wanted to know if Hyperspace & Subspace are connected and be scaled off each other [for future use] . But I do agree with Whis that the Avatars are a big issue here.

 

[Alonik]

I wanted to know if Hyperspace & Subspace are connected and be scaled off each other [for future use] . But I do agree with Whis that the Avatars are a big issue here.

Hyperspace is the subspace itself, in the Marvel Glossary says it's the same thing only as with different name.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Bump.

@Alonik Thank you.

 

[Kepekley23]

With Al Ewing's stories, he himself has stated he likes to spell it out plainly when it's the Multiversal Eternity being talked of, so that won't be a problem.

With other stories, just check to see if the context/event is multiversal or not.

 

[Kepekley23]

Also, what the heck is wrong with Rune King Thor ?

The fact that him being 2-C is so, so disgustingly downplayed.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Great. I agree with everything proposed in the OP as well.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Bump.

@Kepekley I see.

I personally believe he is downplayed as well, but I'm unsure to what extent you are referring to.

 

[AshenCrow777]

Don't wont to derail too much but Kep is right RKT level of downplay is just frankly disgusting especially with the things he does in his story that's just ridiculous to think he caps at 2-C.


Anyway can we all agree that things are good here?

 

[Antvasima]

It is not. The Eighth Omniverse and its abstracts are far more powerful than the Seventh Omniverse's, period. Even the First Firmament states as much.

Just a note that your scan of a possible (as the only thing they truly seemed to have in common was that they originate outside of the multiverse) Beyonder being defeated by the guardian of the Neutral Zone happened in the 7th multiverse, before the latest Secret Wars. It is just yet another of Al Ewings typical nonsensical extreme inconsistencies, not something to be used as evidence for the 8th iteration being superior, especially as it has much fewer universes, all created one by one by Franklin Richards. There was a Fantastic Four story that referred to them as a bit over a thousand if I remember correctly. In addition, Spectrum overpowered the possible Beyonder right before the guardian did so as well.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, can somebody please explain to me where an uncountable number of higher dimensions, that are treated as equivalent to higher infinities, are mentioned here? It seems like we are making an upgrade by selectively sewing together extremely separate completely unconnected stories decades apart from different authors. It is most likely very unreliable for a setting as ridiculously inconsistent as Marvel.

 

[Driger-God]

Spectrum vs "C.Beyonder avatar" = "We'are working thorugh this 'puppet', this "Jason", the cursos we control. But in real terms... We're not like you. We're not finite. Not limited. We can decide how powerful we are.. " - "Don't be stupid, Monica. You can never exist on our level ." Monica never had any scale for C.Beyonder avatar. Each interation of Eternity evolves.

Is fallacious said that everything is inconsistent, or stay searching inconsistence in everything...

 

[Kepekley23]

Anyway, can somebody please explain to me where an uncountable number of higher dimensions, that are treated as equivalent to higher infinities, are mentioned here? It seems like we are making an upgrade by selectively sewing together extremely separate completely unconnected stories decades apart from different authors. It is most likely very unreliable for a setting as ridiculously inconsistent as Marvel.

I. Being Low 1-A isn't exclusive to possessing uncountably infinite higher dimensions. Anything that transcends a High 1-B hierarchy is enough to be rated as such. This is outright stated in our Tiering System page.

2. I am not sure if you realize this, but your constant ramblings about the inconsistency of Marvel are extremely exasperating, both to me and everyone else in this thread. Many people have criticized you for this unrealistic approach in the past, too. We know you believe the series to be completely deprived of any concept of inconsistency, but very few people in this site agree with that notion. If we were to take it at face-value, almost no characters would even be 2-A.

3. Literally all of the scans I used in my thread are from the Post-Secret Wars/Eighth Omniverse cosmology.

 

[Kepekley23]

It is not. The Eighth Omniverse and its abstracts are far more powerful than the Seventh Omniverse's, period. Even the First Firmament states as much.

Just a note that your scan of a possible (as the only thing they truly seemed to have in common was that they originate outside of the multiverse) Beyonder being defeated by the guardian of the Neutral Zone happened in the 7th multiverse, before the latest Secret Wars. It is just yet another of Al Ewings typical nonsensical extreme inconsistencies, not something to be used as evidence for the 8th iteration being superior, especially as it has much fewer universes, all created one by one by Franklin Richards. There was a Fantastic Four story that referred to them as a bit over a thousand if I remember correctly. In addition, Spectrum overpowered the possible Beyonder right before the guardian did so as well.

The Eighth Omniverse is undeniably much more powerful than the Seventh. The First Firmament itself states so in blatant terms..

In fact, Multiversal Eternity from the 8th Omniverse is more powerful than The Living Tribunal from the Seventh Omniverse.