• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Marvel Comics Herald Tiers Upgrade to 3-C

Status
Not open for further replies.
Oh, really? How does that work?

Let's just stick to 4-A. Lesser assumptions IG?
 
I dunno, just a feeling

I'm probably gonna give the andromeda feat a shot btw
 
Even if the feat is High 3-A wouldn't it be an outlier as it's the only High 3-A feat here atm? (Unless I'm missing something) Plus majority of the stuff in the proposal points to 4-A so I feel like a High 3-A upgrade should be somewhere else
 
I agree. I don't think that just a feat of shaking the universe is enough for High 3-A. Like, that would be a huge upgrade, and the statements seem kinda shaky on their own. For an upgrade as big as High 3-A, I don't think there should be any ambiguity over whether they are legit feats or just flowery language.
 
The_Impress said:
Can someone just compile these “finite universe statements” and “infinite universe statements”? Depending on the context, both can be moot since a large enough finite size can be conflated to an “infinite size” by the speaker, and on the other hand a finite number given can very well just be a part of the whole, infinite universe.

Like, ALOT of this can very well be uncontradicted or compatible with one another if someone were to just compile them for analysis
Click to expand...
Well since you asked...

Infinite Statements (from the comics):
  1. Journey into Mystery Vol 1 97 (1963) - Stan Lee (Thor states: "the universe is huge-- endless...")
  2. Fantastic Four v1 49 (1966) - Stan Lee (Galactus states: "...in the endless cosmos")
  3. Fantastic Four v1 50 (1966) - Stan Lee (The Watcher states: "...a maze of endless galaxies...the ravages of infinite space")
  4. Fantastic Four v1 50 (1966) - Stan Lee (The Watcher states: "...the universe is endless")
  5. Thor King-Size Special v1 2 (1966) - Stan Lee (Odin states: "...across the infinite void...")
  6. Thor King-Size Special v1 2 (1966) - Stan Lee (Narrator states: "...furthest reach of the limitless universe)
    (This is also where the trillion thought years statement comes from as well)
  7. Silver Surfer v1 1 (1968) - Stan Lee (Silver Surfer states: "...the airless vacuums of unending cosmos...")
  8. Silver Surfer v1 9 (1969) - Stan Lee (Silver Surfer states: "From the endless reaches of infinite space...")
  9. Thor v1 185 (1971) - Stan Lee (Narrator states: "...hurtles toward the edge of infinite...")
  10. Marvel Treasury Edition v1 9 (1976) - Stan Lee (Thor states: "I sent a message through the infinite void")
  11. Uncanny X-Men v1 134 (1980) - Chris Claremont, John Byrne (Narrator states: "...though all the infinite reaches of space and time")
  12. Marvel Super Heroes Secret Wars v1 12 (1985) - Jim Shooter (Dr. Doom states: "No way in the infinite universe...")
  13. Incredible Hulk v1 312 (1985) - Bill Mantlo (The Narrator states: "...our universe named that is many-layered, composed of a seemingly endless number of dimensions...")
  14. Incredible Hulk v1 312 (1985) - Bill Mantlo (The Narrator states: "...traversing the myriad planes...")
  15. Silver Surfer v3 1 (1987) - Steve Englehart (Narrator states: "...and an infinity number of suns is being born...and an infinity is dying away")
  16. Silver Surfer v3 1 (1987) - Steve Englehart (Narrator states: "Space is infinite!")
  17. Silver Surfer v3 1 (1987) - Steve Englehart (Silver Surfer states: "I can track a grain of dust through the infinite void...")
  18. Epic Illustrated v1 26 (1987) - John Byrne (Narrator states: "...speeding across infinite space...")
  19. Silver Surfer: Parable TPB v1 1 (1988) - Stan Lee (Silver Surfer states: "Amidst countless of worlds and endless stars...")
  20. Silver Surfer: Parable TPB v1 1 (1988) - Stan Lee (Galactus states: "For the vast and endless are the galaxies")
  21. Silver Surfer: Parable TPB v1 1 (1988) - Stan Lee (Mrrungo-Mu states: "Be the universe not endless?")
  22. Thor v1 417 (1990) - Tom DeFalco, Ron Frenz (Narrator states: "Far across an infinite gulf of time and space...")
  23. Marvel Masterworks: Silver Surfer v1 1 (1990) - Stan Lee (Silver Surfer states: "In all the endless reaches of space...")
  24. What If? v1 35 (1992) - Roy Thomas, R.J.M. Lofficier (The Watcher states: "...with every quantum moment in the life of the universe an infinity of alternate realities is created...(some AD Infinitum bs that I can't be bothered to type out)")
  25. Thor v1 423 (1990) - Tom Defalco, Ron Frenz (Narrator states: "Far across the infinite void of deep space..."
  26. Silver Surfer / Thor Annual v1 (1998) - Tom DeFalco (Narrator states: "...the distant seas of endless space...")
  27. Thor: Tales of Asgard by Lee & Kirby v1 1 (2001) - Stan Lee (Narrator states: "reaching through the emptiness of space...reaching to the very end of infinity")
  28. Fantastic Four Annual v1 2001 (2001) - Jeph Loeb (Captain Universe talks about... well the universe and also the multiverse)
  29. Annihilation: Heralds Of Galactus v1 2 (2007) - Keith Giffen (Silver Surfer states: "I can track a grain of dust through the infinite void of space")
  30. Fear Itself v1 7.3 (2011) - Matt Fraction (Odin states: "...glance one instant at the infinite [universe]...")
  31. Silver Surfer v7 4 (2014) - Dan Slott (Silver Surfer states: "...the universe is infinite and ever-expanding...")
  32. Silver Surfer v7 15 (2016) - Dan Slott (Silver Surfer told Dawn that: "...the real universe is infinite and ever-expanding...")
  33. Thanos: The Infinity Conflict v1 1 (2018) - Jim Starlin (The Living Tribunal states: "...being within this infinite realm")
  34. King Thor v1 4 (2019) - Jason Aaron (Narrator states: "...thunder that rumbles the length of infinity [lenght of the universe]...")
  35. Silver Surfer: Black v1 4 (2019) - Donny Cates (Ego states: "Open your eyes and gaze into [the] infinity [universe]")
  36. Silver Surfer: Black v1 5 (2019) - Donny Cates (Silver Surfer states: "...I am aware of their mighty breath giving chase to the winds of infinity")
  37. Thor v6 13 (2020) - Donny Cates (Narrator states: "...echoed across the infinite canyons of the Ten Realms")

Guidebook Statements:

Obviously, some of these would be considered hyperbolic or symbolic
I'll personally use the ones that fit into that category as backing/supporting feats instead ¯\(ツ)/¯
 
Last edited:
CowHeadGod said:
  1. Incredible Hulk v1 312 (1985) - Bill Mantlo (The Narrator states: "...our universe named that is many-layered, composed of a seemingly endless number of dimensions...")
  2. Incredible Hulk v1 312 (1985) - Bill Mantlo (The Narrator states: "...traversing the myriad planes...")
  3. What If? v1 35 (1992) - Roy Thomas, R.J.M. Lofficier (The Watcher states: "...with every quantum moment in the life of the universe an infinity of alternate realities is created...(some AD Infinitum bs that I can't be bothered to type out)")
Click to expand...
I don't think these are size-based. Obviously that's pretty minor. How did you find so many statements lol
 
Armorchompy said:
I don't think these are size-based. Obviously that's pretty minor. How did you find so many statements lol
Click to expand...
A friend already had most of them recorded down in a list in case something like this happened :ρ

Bonus infinite statements to add to the list ig:
  1. Tales to Astonish v1 27 (1961) - Stan Lee (Narrator states: "Somewhere in the vast endless universe...")
  2. Silver Surfer v3 1 (1987) - Steve Englehart (Narrator states a 2nd time (technically the first) that: "Space is infinite!")
  3. Silver Surfer v3 5 (1987) - Steve Englehart (Silver Surfer states: "The fascination of infinity consumed me, the constant need to find uninhabitable worlds...")
For finite stuff, you can use all those times where there's stated an edge or limit which I'm too burnout to do, please someone else do that. There's also that whole the universe will eventually come to an end like our own from Fantastic Four v1 230 thing that I've seen people use to argue or smth. Also afaik that trillion LY statement is the highest finite number given to the universe's size without getting into thought years bs.
 
Last edited:
Don’t bump threads so often, you should wait 10-12 hours before bumping.
 
Eficiente said:
Can you link this cases?
Click to expand...
Thor Vol.1 #160 Ego creates a shockwave that destroys planetoids around him and then the Recorder mentions that a cosmic catastrophe has occurred, in the next chapter the narrator mentions that in the battle between Galactus and Ego the universe totters.

Then the Recorder mentions something about shaking the universe and Thor attacks Galactus with Mjolnir so hard that it makes him feel pain and the narrator implies that he shook the heavens.

Eficiente said:
He is, but that doesn't attribute that not being able to be a hyperbole for his power being too great.
Click to expand...
Yes, it would be hyperbole if he did not have feats or statements of a similar level.

Eficiente said:
Of course.
Click to expand...
A bonus fact is that Silver Surfer was weakened before Dr. Doom stole his powers.


Eficiente said:
Can't do due to lack of time, ignore it as it is, I can only hope someone to pay attention and see to it. It's also not really an artifact, it's a physical bridge in Asgard but then when used anywhere on Earth it may be a bridge that appears at different parts of the world or may be not portrayed visible at all, with characters leaving Earth w/o the bridge and popping up in Asgard with its bridge, it's weird.
  • I can do this much
    • In Journey into Mystery vol 1/1952 issue 88 Thor goes from space outside Earth w/o the bridge but pops up on Asgard using the bridge.
Click to expand...
If he used the bridge, why did he fly into space, isn't it supposed to be connected to Earth?
It's never mentioned that he used it and the bridge appears because it's obviously at the entrance to Asgard where Thor commonly enters.

Eficiente said:
  • In Journey into Mystery vol 1/1952 issue 92 it's stated that Asgard can only be reached from Earth by the bridge, which would seem to go against what Thor did. If it can only be reached by the bridge in Earth than why was Thor able to use it on space?
Click to expand...
There are many instances where it is implied that the Bifrost is not necessary to go from Earth to Asgard and vice versa, That the Bifrost is the only entrance to the realm does not imply that one can only travel through it.

Eficiente said:
  • In Journey into Mystery vol 1/1952 issue 94 Thor flies from space into Asgard w/o the bridge but the bridge's used when he gets there.
Click to expand...
The same as before Thor always enters through the main entrance out of respect for Odin, just because the Bifrost is there doesn't mean it was used.

Eficiente said:
The bridge is always on Asgard, there is no way for something omnidirectional in Asgard that goes a bit beyond Asgard to no reach Earth, as it should be reaching the bridge by moving that little much.
Click to expand...
However, we have multiple instances where they traveled beyond Asgard without using the bifrost and arrived in the normal universe, indicating that Asgard, at least according to Stan Lee, is physically connected to the universe.

I will give you some examples from among the many that exist:

By the way the narrator also says many times "distant asgard" or that it is at an infinite, unimaginable or incalculable distance (terms he also uses for intergalactic distances), it was also said that the bifrost covers the distance between asgard and Earth. In Thor #152 it is mentioned that Asgard is one universe away from Earth.

Furthermore, at no point is dimensional travel hinted at in Thor's storm, the narrative makes it clear that if he managed to reach Earth it was because of the power of the storm itself and not because of external things.

Eficiente said:
  • We go by the take of the planet having the durabilty to have suvived that as it did rather than the Energy Manip in the blast not targeting it and the characters there. It makes too much sense that they would not blast & absorb the only planet not made of living matter when only absorbing planets made of living matter.
Click to expand...
It is not only the fact that it has survived but the comic shows very clearly that it is not a common planetoid, first we have the fact that it was created by the celestials and that apparently it has been in existence since the Black Galaxy was created, it is the center of the galaxy and it is the only astronomical object in the Black Galaxy that is not composed of organic matter and finally and most importantly the planet comes out unscathed from the energies that were shaking/tearing the whole galaxy, no common planetoid could resist that.

Therefore it is clear that it is a special kind of planetoid created to be the ideal scenario for the birth of a new celestial.

Eficiente said:
Click to expand...
Now looking at it more carefully those "rocks" seem to be all that organic matter that is orbiting around the galaxy.

Anyway, those mistakes are made even by the best cartoonists, it's like complaining that Spider-Man's suit doesn't break in an explosion.
Eficiente said:
  • I as I see it, I imagine the feat like if you would see a mysterious character blasting enegy at regular humans to vaporize evil beings behind them, the blast covering them all but only vaporizing the evil beings, then the mysterious character just leaves. You wouldn't think "they took the blast", just "they were never the target and that energy was manipulated to not harm them in the same way", even if the humans were somewhat affected by that. We know the explosion is energy being manipulated that they then control to withdraw pretty much in reverse, when it was done being an explosion, with a control that precise, the purpose of the blast not targeting the planet where it happened, and the latter requiring to have durability on the level of the explosion while also having some rocks blown away but also also smaller rocks closer to the explosion unaffected, it makes the most sense to me that the character took some effect from the blast but not at all all of it as if it was a regular explosion.
Click to expand...
Everything I have mentioned is pure headcanon.
The celestials only manipulated the explosion when it finished covering the galaxy, causing it to shrink and absorb all the remaining organic matter. If they had manipulated it from the beginning they wouldn't have made it destroy all the organic matter in the galaxy to just absorb the remnants, they would have absorbed it all at once.

Also if the characters understand that the explosion doesn't affect inorganic matter and the characters as you say, it makes no sense for them to say thank goodness the High Evolutionary people managed to save their ship from being crushed in the recent conflagration.


And in #425 it is mentioned that some injured need to be attended to after the explosion.
Eficiente said:
Yes but galaxies don't explode, he may refer to someone making them explode, which they are a number of ways to do.
Click to expand...
In fiction it does, and in this case it seems to refer to natural explosions because it says galaxies in the plural and I don't think many guys have gone around exploding galaxies.

Eficiente said:
If a galaxy were to be covered with energy and then that blows up then the feat itself is 3-C, but taking it from the epicenter isn't the same in durability, as the whole explosion didn't came from there. Replace "cover with energy" with anything where the whole explosion still doesn't came from the epicenter and the result is the same.
Click to expand...
What do you mean by covering with energy? For it to be 3-C it has to be a galaxy-sized explosion that wipes out all the stars.

Eficiente said:
The second sentence may also refer to some Area of Effect thing.
Click to expand...
Huh? the idea is to convey that they are much more powerful and bigger explosions than a galaxy explosion for something he ended up saying that the firmament itself was covered.

Eficiente said:
Didn't see the "the heavens and" before, but doesn't change much. What I think of that is the same with some changes in the wording.

It can also be poetic.
Click to expand...
The fact that they tell you that they made the heavens and the very firmament of the universe tremble, is a clear insinuation that they made the whole universe tremble.
The same official Marvel website tells you twice that they have shaken the very heavens and firmament of the universe, darkening the stars and knocking the planets out of their orbits.

Eficiente said:
The feat used to be in Galactus' profile in his hungry key, the wording used made it seem like he was weakened but yet a bit amped, it's weird, and better to take the feat as what it did on its own.

I think that might be due to destroying something that had galaxy in its name? Idk. We will see.
Click to expand...
In itself the calculation is a low end since the Galactus explosion did not stop in only 3 solar systems.

I have already found the scan I had mentioned:

Eficiente said:
I refer to what much Mjolnir can have inside, in case that bit is seen as a feat.
Click to expand...
Mother Storm can exert her will and use her power even when inside Mjolnir, so by being able to resist these energies Mjolnir's durability suits Mother Storm. For even if she is in a "pocket reality", when she uses her powers her energy must pass through Mjolnir.

Eficiente said:
All the "this is very powerful" stuff is true, she would need so to get away with that much evil, but a super terrorist can be anywhere from Tier 8 to anything higher themselves to threaten to burn the whole world while angry, even if they already are a threat to the planet. They can destroy things overtime or mess up society as we know it in evil ways w/o annihilating it.
Click to expand...
In the situation in which this statement is presented, she does not have the opportunity to escape and progressively destroy the galaxy. And with the context provided by these statements:
It is clear that she is capable of destroying the entire galaxy or much of it at that very moment.
 
Last edited:
Emirp sumitpo said:
Do you have a source for this?
Click to expand...
I got your bro

Sentry Vol 2 8: Sentry weakens the Void and dumps him in the sun. They have varied power mechanism. And the void wasn't even dead.
Siege Vol 1 4: Thor dumps the sentry and void in the sun. The two decreases and increases their powers for years so they don't leave the sun. One wanted to die, the other didn't. So neither was overpowering one another.

In addition, a weaker Void was perfectly fine being even closer to the Sun in Dark Avengers Vol 1 13.
 
Armorchompy said:
I gave the black hole feat a shot. Probably pretty rough mind you.
Click to expand...
Nice work, although the black hole created by Silver Surfer could be the one in this panel:
ostyuY0.jpeg

Andromeda Radius: 1100px 110,000 Light Years
Black Hole: 77px | 7700 Light Years | 72847624638872160000 meters

Mass: 1.23304E+16 Solar Mass
Energy: (1.23304E+16)*(5.693E+41) = 7.01969672E+57 Joules (4-A)
 
Generally I dunno if black holes are visible like that so I just went with eyeballing. Still, it works either way
 
A few questions.
Do you know of any mention of the power of 1000 suns in any of Stan Lee's comics, since according to him this power is enough to destroy an entire galaxy.


And who scales Hungry Galactus? Since he is able to move galaxies across the universe, feat 3-C.



And it can also destroy multiple galaxies.
 
Kulf_Boba said:
who scales Hungry Galactus
Click to expand...
Sentry should, and likely X-Man. Apparently he and Sentry fought him together and defeated him. Just the two. 'Its also not a contradiction from what Spidey said back in Sentry/Spidey #1.


also base Thanos can also scale
 
Confluctor said:
Sentry should, and likely X-Man. Apparently he and Sentry fought him together and defeated him. Just the two. 'Its also not a contradiction from what Spidey said back in Sentry/Spidey #1.


also base Thanos can also scale
Click to expand...
Does this mean Thanos will be 3-C?
 
If Galactus gets that, sure. And so would Tyrant

Also, been a while since I read Thanos shit, but doesn't he and Odin destroy most of the galaxy in their fight? Or am I thinking of another character?
 
Can one assume that one billion thought-years is at least one billion light-years?

If this value is used, the result of the storm created by Thor is 7.55 ZettaFoe (1.39 below 3-C).
 
Confluctor said:
If Galactus gets that, sure. And so would Tyrant

Also, been a while since I read Thanos shit, but doesn't he and Odin destroy most of the galaxy in their fight? Or am I thinking of another character?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure. I'll check the fight though.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

ObberGobb
Marvel: Big Yggdrasil Downgrade, Skyfather Upgrades, and Thor Revisions
5 6 7
Replies
272
Views
21K
ObberGobb
ObberGobb
Bifrost upgrade and potential Thor upgrade
2
Replies
54
Views
4K
Isaacbobanka
Oliver_de_jesus
Marvel Animated Universe is the same Multiverse Cluster that Earth 616?
Replies
7
Views
851
Oliver_de_jesus
Oliver_de_jesus
Excellence616
Marvel Comics: Hulk Upgrade And Ability Addition
2
Replies
57
Views
3K
Antvasima
Antvasima
Suigetsuhyugs
  • Locked
[Marvel Comics] Some Upgrades and stuff...
2
Replies
62
Views
3K
Antvasima
Antvasima
Back
Top