"Marksmanship" Ability Page Creation

[M3X_2.0]

I made a page for Marksmanship, or in other words, precise aim, accurate aim, whatever. Page.

I created the page because most street level characters from DC and Marvel (About 150+ pages) have this, and accurate aim is one of their main powers and we just classify it as skill, but we don't have a page.

 

[M3X_2.0]

@Antvasima please.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I used ChatGPT to write the text, then me and @Chariot190 tweaked a bit.

 

[KingTempest]

Looks good

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I personally do not mind, but isn't our weapon mastery page sufficient for this purpose? If not, I suppose that this seems good.

 

[Propellus]

This seems pretty redundant, as we have Weapon Mastery for this sort of ability at the very least which already notes this. As it says here:

This classification can be used for any kind of weapon, such as a sword, spear, knife, or gun

I'm hard disagreeing with this addition. As this could eventually make the current Weapon Mastery look rather pointless. But at the same time, I could see this possibly working as a specific type addition for that page.

 

[M3X_2.0]

This has nothing to do with Weapon Mastery page and it wouldn’t make it pointless, I don’t even know how one reached to this conclusion, as weapon mastery requires the user to use the weapon in such professional manner, and marksmanship requires the user to aim better.

Using a gun or a bow doesn’t necessarily mean you are now hitting impossible shots, like marksmanship would grant you.

And the fact that the specific details of the level of usage of the weapon in question having to be written on the intelligence section makes this page even more necessary, as one’s accurate aim is no different than a hand to hand skill, which is always described on PA section.

I mean, you can be against it, but I’m not throwing it away because of it.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Also, this ability extends far beyond weapons. Characters like Bullseye will use whatever they can carry and throw as a lethal weapon, as he did with a pendrive, which by no means is a weapon.

 

[Firestorm808]

If it's pure skill, it would be a form of mastery.

Is there a "Marksmanship" ability instance that is supernatural in nature?

 

[M3X_2.0]

Being a form of mastery doesn’t necessarily fits the weapons page, as this extends beyond weapons. So it being supernaturally or not doesn’t really matter.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Even if it fits the weapon page, it would need to be heavily edited to take the stuff I wrote into account, as the page is bland and vague, and doesn’t have any mention to marksmanship.

 

[Bobsican]

TBH this is indeed redundant with Weapon Mastery (cases that don't rely on weapons just fall on whatever element the attack's made of plus something in the Intelligence section), if anything the Weapon Mastery page could be expanded on.

Main issue is that this is just asking for a fancy label for characters that are particularly skilled with artillery and other long-range weaponry, but this seems unecessary as much we haven't required, say, a page specifically for skilled usage of close combat weaponry like swords, this is just inviting to make more and more rather specific subpages that overall are of little substance as their main content would be on the Intelligence page to begin with.

Sure, our purpose is to explain the capabilities to characters to our visitors, but this just seems overall detrimental and unecessary.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Anyway, let’s say someone argues like

“Hitting impossible shots with a gun or a bow is just a higher level of mastering a weapon”

Yeah, that would be correct, but what about characters that can ricochet the projectile (that isn’t necessarily a weapon, debunking the notion of it being Weapon Mastery) or changing their trajectory using the wind speed or scenario-specific effects? This is beyond just mastering a weapon, it also adds knowledge, accuracy, and many more things into account.

 

[M3X_2.0]

TBH this is indeed redundant with Weapon Mastery (cases that don't rely on weapons just fall on whatever element the attack's made of plus something in the Intelligence section), if anything the Weapon Mastery page could be expanded on.

Main issue is that this is just asking for a fancy label for characters that are particularly skilled with artillery and other long-range weaponry, but this seems unecessary as much we haven't required, say, a page specifically for skilled usage of close combat weaponry like swords, this is just inviting to make more and more rather specific subpages that overall are of little substance as their main content would be on the Intelligence page to begin with.

Sure, our purpose is to explain the capabilities to characters to our visitors, but this just seems overall detrimental and unecessary.

Everything you said was previously addressed.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Also, that’s not labeling specific powers? What the ****? That’s not even close to what marksmanship is being proposed here, we have NO MENTION to inhumanly precise aims anywhere on any power page.

How would one know that a character has a very good aim, enough to ricochet stuff that isn’t possible? Link “Weapon Mastery” page while the character isn’t using a weapon or while the page has not mention at all to aim and accuracy?

And calling it “detrimental”, that’s not detrimental. Do you even know what it means?

 

[SamanPatou]

I can see the use of this page since some characters have exceptional aim and make use of such skill even without using weapons, and overtime there have been a few times people didn't know how to address it.

An example is Frieza sniping a bunch of hidden soldiers with extreme precision using his finger blasts in the Broly movie, people didn't really know how to address it.

Then I have a few instances of people doing it with pebbles or whatever other ranged ability, from energy to elements.

Of course this requires actual feats of marksmanship, and while it can often be related to Weapon Mastery and Enhanced Senses, it isn't always the case.

 

[Propellus]

This has nothing to do with Weapon Mastery page and it wouldn’t make it pointless, I don’t even know how one reached to this conclusion, as weapon mastery requires the user to use the weapon in such professional manner, and marksmanship requires the user to aim better.

This is literally a sub-ability which is related to Weapon Mastery but in a way generous extent. So yes it does.

Using a gun or a bow doesn’t necessarily mean you are now hitting impossible shots, like marksmanship would grant you.

Usually this depends on how good the character is with the gun going by case by case evidence.

Yeah, that would be correct, but what about characters that can ricochet the projectile (that isn’t necessarily a weapon, debunking the notion of it being Weapon Mastery) or changing their trajectory using the wind speed or scenario-specific effects? This is beyond just mastering a weapon, it also adds knowledge, accuracy, and many more things into account.

It's still mastery but just to a ridiculous extent, period. What even changes here? And also, I don't really see the issue with why you're unable to literally just note the Marksmanship skill feats right into Weapon Mastery.

 

[M3X_2.0]

This is literally a sub-ability which is related to Weapon Mastery but in a way generous extent. So yes it does.

Nope, not even close. This isn’t a sub-ability, it actually has nothing to do with mastering a weapon, mastering a weapon doesn’t mean you do what marksmanship grants you.

Usually this depends on how good the character is with the gun going by case by case evidence.

The character can be the best on a gun and still don’t do what marksmanship would grant a character, because it’s two different things. The character can be unstoppable with his gun, hitting every shot, but it doesn’t mean he can ricochet bullets, or use wind speed to change trajectory, or forcing the bullet to make a curve, Matrix-like.

It's still mastery but just to a ridiculous extent, period. What even changes here? And also, I don't really see the issue with why you're unable to literally just note the Marksmanship skill feats right into Weapon Mastery.

it’s not mastery, it’s a whole different type of ability that somehow you still fail to understand. What changes? We have a whole page dedicated to people with accurate, inhumanly aim that doesn’t necessarily mean they have a mastery over that weapon.

The issue is that Weapon Mastery page sucks and doesn’t have any mention to what we are discussing here, you’re relating mastering a weapon to accurately hitting everything and doing fictional stuff. The page is rather specific as being how one would handle a weapon rather than how good he can aim.

Also, you still didn’t address how characters that can do this with non-weapons objects could be classified. Marksmanship covers that.

 

[KingTempest]

This looks specifically like it’s meant for ppl who can just hit targets, regardless of the weapon used

Even with elemental weapons and such, flame beams and ice arrows or even magic cards and the like

 

[M3X_2.0]

Oh yeah, cards. I think everyone knows about Gambit from the X-Man, right? Dude can do the same we discussed, but with cards.

Cards are not weapons, a pendrive isn’t a weapon, despite being thrown with accuracy to pierce a human skull by Bullseye.

I still don’t see why people can’t tell the difference from this to Weapons Mastery.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Oh yeah, cards. I think everyone knows about Gambit from the X-Man, right? Dude can do the same we discussed, but with cards.

Cards are not weapons, a pendrive isn’t a weapon, despite being thrown with accuracy to pierce a human skull by Bullseye.

I still don’t see why people can’t tell the difference from this to Weapons Mastery.

This is still weapon mastery lol
They are just a master of improvised weapons, not to mention even if you wanted to make those feats a different Marksmanship wouldn't even be what I label being able to do superhuman amount of damage with cards (For Bullseye I'd say damage boost or something at best, and I'm pretty sure Gambit just in fact imbues the objects he throws with energy)

 

[Armorchompy]

yeah if you throw something with the intent to harm that is a weapon, and if you are really good at that that is weapon mastery

i disagree with the power existing as a standalone but i think it'd be fine to annex it to WM in some way

 

[Chariot190]

This seems pretty redundant, as we have Weapon Mastery for this sort of ability at the very least which already notes this. As it says here:


I'm hard disagreeing with this addition. As this could eventually make the current Weapon Mastery look rather pointless. But at the same time, I could see this possibly working as a specific type addition for that page.

I'd have to disagree, there's overlap of course, but there's many, many, dudes who don't have weapons or even use weapons that have extreme precision and accuracy as an ability. For example, Star Platinum, Mewtwo, or even Freeza. They all display exceptional marksmanship, but not one uses a weapon to do it (or even an improvised weapon).

 

[Tllmbrg]

I'd have to disagree, there's overlap of course, but there's many, many, dudes who don't have weapons or even use weapons that have extreme precision and accuracy as an ability. For example, Star Platinum, Mewtwo, or even Freeza. They all display exceptional marksmanship, but not one uses a weapon to do it (or even an improvised weapon).

Martial Arts, idk what you even count for Mewtwo there, Energy Manipulation/Projection feat

 

[Deagonx]

I disagree for similar reasons to given above, but @M3X_2.0 you need to relax with how aggressive you're being in this thread.

 

[Armorchompy]

I disagree for similar reasons to given above, but @M3X_2.0 you need to relax with how aggressive you're being in this thread.

He's just being mildly confrontative, I don't think it's reason for a warning.

Anyways weapon mastery is already a massively wide ability, there's no overlap between usage of guns and swords and knowing how to fight with a knife is closer to knowledge of unarmed combat than anything along the lines of fencing. IMO it's better to keep marksmanship within weapon mastery given that then you'd have to differentiate between what counts as marksmanship and what counts as ranged weapon mastery.

 

[Armorchompy]

honestly the real based take is just fuse martial arts and weapon mastery into something like "combat expertise" so we don't have to split hairs every time something falls outside the norm, but that's not happening

 

[Deagonx]

He's just being mildly confrontative, I don't think it's reason for a warning.

Eh, it's one thing for tensions to rise over the course of a long debate, but when the first disagreement (which was stated politely) is met with:

Also, that’s not labeling specific powers? What the ****?

And calling it “detrimental”, that’s not detrimental. Do you even know what it means?

Is not appropriate, and while it doesn't rise to the point of an RVR report, for me it definitely reaches the point of saying "dude, relax."

 

[Chariot190]

honestly the real based take is just fuse martial arts and weapon mastery into something like "combat expertise" so we don't have to split hairs every time something falls outside the norm, but that's not happening

idk sounds kinda based tbh, id be ok with that, I'd rather one huge catch all than two midly encompassing ones that leaves gaps for what can fit

Eh, it's one thing for tensions to rise over the course of a long debate, but when the first disagreement (which was stated politely) is met with:



Is not appropriate, and while it doesn't rise to the point of an RVR report, for me it definitely reaches the point of saying "dude, relax."

Saying **** isnt being hostile here, that's just exclaiming confusion at the statement, just how he talks, I do the same.
And the latter one he aint even wrong, how's that detrimental

 

[RatherClueless]

I have received permission to post here from @Armorchompy

Now, I will say that I'm not sure how common such an ability is across fiction and whether it would thus warrant a page, but I know of a character who very specifically doesn't have any sort of weapons mastery, yet can still shoot a gun like this.



He very specifically just has the ability to hit anything he aims at, regardless of what he uses, be it shooting hoops with a basketball, kicking a can, or shooting a gun.

 

[KLOL506]

I think we can add a sub-menu for Marksmanship as part of Weapon Mastery and then elaborate the details in the bracket.

 

[KLOL506]

yeah if you throw something with the intent to harm that is a weapon, and if you are really good at that that is weapon mastery

i disagree with the power existing as a standalone but i think it'd be fine to annex it to WM in some way

I agree with this compromise approach.

 

[Propellus]

I'd have to disagree, there's overlap of course, but there's many, many, dudes who don't have weapons or even use weapons that have extreme precision and accuracy as an ability. For example, Star Platinum, Mewtwo, or even Freeza. They all display exceptional marksmanship, but not one uses a weapon to do it (or even an improvised weapon).

The thing is, having access to laser abilities or other ranged powers is clearly not the same as being good with a gun separately. And if anything, I would just count those as intelligence feats for combat potency if they're that significantly precise with their abilities like that.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I literally just woke up and Chariot190’s comments are being deleted

Stop. He literally created the page with me and was the one who gave the initial idea. He’s obviously allowed to comment.

Just let me wake up properly before I reply to everyone.

 

[Deagonx]

I literally just woke up and Chariot190’s comments are being deleted

Stop. He literally created the page with me and was the one who gave the initial idea. He’s obviously allowed to comment.

To get full posting rights in this thread he'd need a bureaucrat's permission. For individual posts (that need to be on-topic) he can be approved by a thread mod, but given that this isn't a verse-specific topic with deep lore knowledge needed, it doesn't really require his input beyond what he has already provided. We are more than capable of discussing the pros and cons of adding a new ability.

Also, try to avoid multiple short posts in a row, and just condense them to a single post.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Jesus Christ

 

[Chariot190]

The thing is, having access to laser abilities or other ranged powers is clearly not the same as being good with a gun separately. And if anything, I would just count those as intelligence feats for combat potency if they're that significantly precise with their abilities like that.

That's the issue, why is it an intelligent feat? You don't need to be smart to hit good.
Most of the time it's an actual ability or exceptional quality someone has.

I didn't say laser, even if for Freeza that'd be the case. I'm talking about dozens of various things, like Baoh can precisely shoot pieces of his own body like hair with pinpoint accuracy but is also explicitly not skilled or trained in combat at all and was even made note of as a "Weakness". Some characters can even use vibrations to strike a target or do fucky meme stuff, but in the case where they're not just controlling it remotely but rather actually making use of the ability to strike stuff, what then?

It could be a gun, a bow, weapons in general, or it could be energy attacks, fire, ice, laserbeams, unconventional shit like shockwaves, sound, or even stupid shit like time and space itself for the more haxed dudes.
The example the lad gave above, his being able to hit stuff is a power, not an intelligence or skill feat (Thinking on it, a lot of RPG's have skills and abilities like that too such as FF, Pokemon, FE, etc), so what would we list it as? It ain't weapon mastery, it ain't intelligence or skill, so what do we do? Of course, sometimes it could be skill, but what about when it's not?

I'd be fine with adding this to the weapon page as a subsection for a compromise as long it gets fleshed out to be a catch-all though.

To get full posting rights in this thread he'd need a bureaucrat's permission. For individual posts (that need to be on-topic) he can be approved by a thread mod, but given that this isn't a verse-specific topic with deep lore knowledge needed, it doesn't really require his input beyond what he has already provided. We are more than capable of discussing the pros and cons of adding a new ability.

If someone replies to me, I should by all accounts have the right to reply back? In which case, that's happened, twice, one of which you deleted (even though I got permission to post at that time but whatever, here too btw).
Notwithstanding I helped make the thread, this is like borderline telling me to **** off on my own thread here

 

[Deagonx]

If someone replies to me, I should by all accounts have the right to reply back?

No, not necessarily. Please feel free to review the section on Staff Discussions in our Discussion Rules here:

Discussion Rules

VS Battles Wiki is a site where the members attempt to index the statistics of characters across different fictional franchises. These efforts lead to much discussion about certain feats, statements and calculations regarding their validity, reliability, etc. However, certain topics keep popping...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Notwithstanding I helped make the thread, this is like borderline telling me to **** off on my own thread here

Well, simply put, you didn't make the thread, and you aren't staff. I understand your sense of frustration, but that's the way it is. You have to get specific approval.

 

[Propellus]

Nope, not even close. This isn’t a sub-ability, it actually has nothing to do with mastering a weapon, mastering a weapon doesn’t mean you do what marksmanship grants you.

Still is too no matter how much you want to slice that up. This is still considered what I would say "Fancy" Weapon Mastery.

it’s not mastery, it’s a whole different type of ability that somehow you still fail to understand. What changes? We have a whole page dedicated to people with accurate, inhumanly aim that doesn’t necessarily mean they have a mastery over that weapon.

See above.

The issue is that Weapon Mastery page sucks and doesn’t have any mention to what we are discussing here, you’re relating mastering a weapon to accurately hitting everything and doing fictional stuff. The page is rather specific as being how one would handle a weapon rather than how good he can aim.

Also, you still didn’t address how characters that can do this with non-weapons objects could be classified. Marksmanship covers that.

Then you're way better off rewording the Weapon Mastery page if this is all the case here. And also, like I've said, still weapon mastery no matter what even if something's not necessarily considered a weapon, but the thing is those characters are treating those as weapons to the point of superhumanly impaling people. It's just improvisation.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Then you're way better off rewording the Weapon Mastery page if this is all the case here.

That would be the better choice