"Marksmanship" Ability Page Creation

[Propellus]

Then I'm glad we can both come down to our agreements on that precidament.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I’ll write something for the Weapons Page soon

 

[M3X_2.0]

honestly the real based take is just fuse martial arts and weapon mastery into something like "combat expertise" so we don't have to split hairs every time something falls outside the norm, but that's not happening

Actually, I also agree with this. If we’re saying supernatural aim is part of Weapon Mastery then Weapon Mastery is also part of Combat Expertise and so is Martial Arts.

This thread is basically done, I just need to write the Weapons Mastery page again but how do y’all feel about this?

 

[Armorchompy]

Actually, I also agree with this. If we’re saying supernatural aim is part of Weapon Mastery then Weapon Mastery is also part of Combat Expertise and so is Martial Arts.

This thread is basically done, I just need to write the Weapons Mastery page again but how do y’all feel about this?

My personal opinion is that it'd be a legit good improvement because there's tons of grey areas between "Martial Arts" (which is a bad name to begin with because a lot of characters that are great at H2H don't actually know martial arts and many martial arts focus on armed combat) and "Weapon Mastery". HEMA for example included a fuckton of grappling and wrestling alongside weapon usage, and modern H2H training for military and the like absolutely involves knives.

The issue is that it's a big ******* change, I dunno if it's the sort that can be done with bots either (I mean, I guess you could just do redirects), might end up getting pushback as a result of that.

 

[Deagonx]

My personal opinion is that it'd be a legit good improvement because there's tons of grey areas between "Martial Arts" (which is a bad name to begin with because a lot of characters that are great at H2H don't actually know martial arts and many martial arts focus on armed combat)

I recall there being a thread aimed at changing Martial Arts to "Hand to Hand Combat" or something similar, based on that exact objection. I don't remember if it got approved or not.

 

[Armorchompy]

I recall there being a thread aimed at changing Martial Arts to "Hand to Hand Combat" or something similar, based on that exact objection. I don't remember if it got approved or not.

It didn't, but that's a different thing.

 

[Duedate8898]

I think Marksmanship as an ability is separate enough from weapon mastery and common enough to be its own power. Someone like Bullseye, Usopp, Roland (Dark Tower), or really most gunslingers in westerns help illustrate a clear divide in just being skilled users of weapons and being expert marksman. Instead of lopping these characters ability to be accurate under weapon mastery, it's more accurate and makes more intuitive sense to give these characters an ability that more accurately represents their truth.

 

[Arkenis]

What about characters who have precise aim with their punches and swords? Would that just be skill?

 

[Armorchompy]

What about characters who have precise aim with their punches and swords? Would that just be skill?

I would presume so

 

[Agnaa]

I don’t get the objections of “They’re firing weapons well but it’s not weapon mastery” or “Being able to fire a weapon well doesn’t cover being able to fire a weapon REALLY well.” Plus, as other people said, improvised and unconventional weapons are still weapons, and easily fall under Weapon Mastery. The stuff about energy blasts seems like the best reason for a merge beyond just the Weapon Mastery page.

I’d prefer creating a general combat expertise page. Such a merge should be easy to implement with just a few redirects.

Now, I will say that I'm not sure how common such an ability is across fiction and whether it would thus warrant a page, but I know of a character who very specifically doesn't have any sort of weapons mastery, yet can still shoot a gun like this.

He very specifically just has the ability to hit anything he aims at, regardless of what he uses, be it shooting hoops with a basketball, kicking a can, or shooting a gun.

If it's not skill, why would it go under something like Marksmanship? Just do something like supernatural luck.

That's the issue, why is it an intelligent feat? You don't need to be smart to hit good.
Most of the time it's an actual ability or exceptional quality someone has.

I kinda think you do. You'd have to have good knowledge over trajectories, how wind speeds influence projectiles, how to compensate for those sorts of things.

If someone replies to me, I should by all accounts have the right to reply back?

We have these rules on staff discussions because conversations tend to spiral because of that sort of thinking. We don't tend to get 600-post threads because there's 200 people each posting their thoughts 2-4 times then leaving.

You can still reply back, just do it on message walls or in DMs unless you have permission. I've retracted posts because of stuff like that before.

 

[KLOL506]

honestly the real based take is just fuse martial arts and weapon mastery into something like "combat expertise" so we don't have to split hairs every time something falls outside the norm, but that's not happening

Honest to God, I don't even have an issue with this.

 

[Chariot190]

I kinda think you do. You'd have to have good knowledge over trajectories, how wind speeds influence projectiles, how to compensate for those sorts of things.

Except when you don't? Like unironically I could list a dozen examples that don't involve intelligence at all but rather have it as an exceptional quality or special ability disconnected from everything you just mentioned.
Like yeah, most weapon mastery feats involve marksmanship, but not all marksmanship feats involve weapon mastery, intelligence, or anything of the sort, sometimes it's just a thing someone literally posted a prime example already.

 

[Agnaa]

Except when you don't? Like unironically I could list a dozen examples that don't involve intelligence at all but rather have it as an exceptional quality or special ability disconnected from everything you just mentioned.
Like yeah, most weapon mastery feats involve marksmanship, but not all marksmanship feats involve weapon mastery, intelligence, or anything of the sort, sometimes it's just a thing someone literally posted a prime example already.

If it doesn't involve that, then it doesn't fit the suggestion in the OP

Marksmanship refers to the skill and ability of accurately shooting or hitting a target with a firearm or projectile. It involves a combination of knowledge, technique, focus, and physical coordination.

And would much better fit abilities like fate manip/supernatural luck/law manip/reality warping/plot manip/probability manip/heat seeking/etc.

We consider "it being fated for attacks to miss you" to be fate manip, so I think "it being fated for your projectiles to land" would also be fate manip.

 

[Chariot190]

If it's not skill, why would it go under something like Marksmanship? Just do something like supernatural luck.

Because it ain't supernatural luck?

If it doesn't involve that, then it doesn't fit the suggestion in the OP

Except it does? The whole point is just "can hit things but good", that's what the proposal was, and that's what the proposal is. Not sure why you're telling me what my own proposal is if I don't know it myself.
If it's about the name simply being marksmanship, well funny that, I actually did mention the name being a tad misleading because it's a term referring to mostly weapons and the actual proposal doesn't inherently involve weapons (Maybe something like "Precision" would've been more catch-all, not that it matters given I think everyone agreed to flesh out the weapon page to add a catch-all), but, that post was deleted, from the looks of it it shouldn't have because now there's confusion that might not have been there otherwise but not much I can do about that

And would much better fit abilities like fate manip/supernatural luck/law manip/reality warping/plot manip/probability manip/heat seeking/etc.

No, because that's just making shit up and pretending things are something they aren't?
Like above, you said to that ability "that's supernatural luck" as an option, but that's the thing, it isn't. Listing it as supernatural luck is just wrong, spreading misinfo and acting like it's something that it's not shouldn't even be an option here.

Listing an ability as this OTHER ability (a super common one mind you, I wasn't joking when I said I could list dozens of examples, hell I think something as basic as Pokemon has like a solid 15+, and that's one verse, RPGs in particular have a lot of things like this that are even separate from luck explicitly. You listed probability/RW/Law/etc manip as alternatives here, no offense but the fact you need to mention such extreme examples for a basic and common ability is a tad-offputting. Heat-seeking might be ok for some cases, but we're not talking about homing attacks) that has absolutely nothing to do with what's actually happening, I don't have anything more to say to it. It's wrong, so don't do it.

We consider "it being fated for attacks to miss you" to be fate manip, so I think "it being fated for your projectiles to land" would also be fate manip

Because if they aren't manipulating fate to do it ain't fate manip? Like my brother in christ...

 

[Agnaa]

Because it ain't supernatural luck?

No, because that's just making shit up and pretending things are something they aren't?
Like above, you said to that ability "that's supernatural luck" as an option, but that's the thing, it isn't. Listing it as supernatural luck is just wrong, spreading misinfo and acting like it's something that it's not shouldn't even be an option here.

Because if they aren't manipulating fate to do it ain't fate manip? Like my brother in christ...

I don't know what case you have in your mind, so I can't properly answer. It doesn't help if all you say is "It's not skill, it's not supernatural luck, it's not fate manip..." without giving a positive description beyond "it's just a thing".

If it's about Rather's example, we talked about it on Discord for a bit but it was pretty fruitless. At the end of it, it seemed like his reasoning was "it's not skill because he learned it from playing basketball", which I just disagree with; if it's a combat applicable skill, and it's used with weapons, it can easily fit under weapon mastery.

Except it does? The whole point is just "can hit things but good", that's what the proposal was, and that's what the proposal is. Not sure why you're telling me what my own proposal is if I don't know it myself.
If it's about the name simply being marksmanship, well funny that, I actually did mention the name being a tad misleading because it's a term referring to mostly weapons and the actual proposal doesn't inherently involve weapons (Maybe something like "Precision" would've been more catch-all, not that it matters given I think everyone agreed to flesh out the weapon page to add a catch-all), but, that post was deleted, from the looks of it it shouldn't have because now there's confusion that might not have been there otherwise but not much I can do about that

Don't worry, I can read deleted posts.

It's not about the name, it's about the text that I quoted from the page.

To reiterate, it says that the ability comes from knowledge, technique, focus, and physical co-ordination. I'd consider that "skill".

Anyway, to try and get things more productive, I would prefer to have a broader page about combat expertise, to cover all these sorts of things.

 

[Chariot190]

I don't know what case you have in your mind, so I can't properly answer. It doesn't help if all you say is "It's not skill, it's not supernatural luck, it's not fate manip..." without giving a positive description beyond "it's just a thing".

Because it is just a thing.
There's nothing more to add, many characters across fiction have a supernatural ability or exceptional quality that is just "hit good", there's nothing more to elaborate upon. The power itself is the act of hitting good, and 90% of the time, it has absolutely nothing to do with any of the examples you listed, and if they did then we wouldn't even be having this conversation as we'd just list it as those instead. Fiction is fiction basically, sometimes it just be like it do.

If it's about Rather's example, we talked about it on Discord for a bit but it was pretty fruitless. At the end of it, it seemed like his reasoning was "it's not skill because he learned it from playing basketball", which I just disagree with; if it's a combat applicable skill, and it's used with weapons, it can easily fit under weapon mastery.

I'm not Careless, I'm just taking them at face value and trusting what they said. But I'm assuming his ability extends beyond just weapons and the scene just happened to have it be with a weapon, just like the proposal above extends beyond just weapons. And no, I'm not talking "pick up pebble and hit good", given that's an improvised weapon. I've said enough times now that extends to anything and everything, not just weaponry hence the issue.

Don't worry, I can read deleted posts.

Then why bring up the title? You bolded the name, not the content.

It's not about the name, it's about the text that I quoted from the page.

To reiterate, it says that the ability comes from knowledge, technique, focus, and physical co-ordination. I'd consider that "skill".

Blame the shitty AI, I didn't write it, I just tweaked like two lines to try and make it more encompassing.
Though yeah, that can be apart of it, as mentioned. But it sure as hell doesn't have to be with a weapon.
Whether it be through skill, supernatural ability, or whatever, sometimes it's just a thing, I'm more tackling the supernatural or wacky front of it atm though based on your arguments regarding it exclusively being a skill thing or an ability it's not.

Anyway, to try and get things more productive, I would prefer to have a broader page about combat expertise, to cover all these sorts of things.

I think everyone would tbh, but I don't think anyone is willing to start it in light of the potential "to much work" pushback.
As said though, I'm pretty sure everyone has agreed to compromise and flesh out the weapon page itself, though creating a catch-all combat expertise page would definitely solve this and quite a few other issues as well.

 

[Deagonx]

@Chariot190, you are not allowed to argue here freely just because you -- per your own words -- "tweaked two lines" in the original ChatGPT draft. You have made your thoughts known, let the staff discuss it now.

 

[Agnaa]

Blame the shitty AI, I didn't write it, I just tweaked like two lines to try and make it more encompassing.

I didn't know you contributed so little. Slightly rewording two lines of a large draft shouldn't give you carte-blanche to respond to a thread like this, so I'm going to respond on your wall.

Anyone who's curious about the conversation should go there.

If you want to comment more here, get permission for that.

 

[M3X_2.0]

@Chariot190, you are not allowed to argue here freely just because you -- per your own words -- "tweaked two lines" in the original ChatGPT draft. You have made your thoughts known, let the staff discuss it now.

He has permission that Damage gave him.

 

[Deagonx]

He has permission that Damage gave him.

Permission for staff discussions can only be given one post at a time, not carte blanche, by thread mods and admins. Only Bureaucrats can give full permission.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I am editting the page now and I came into this

However, the degree of one's skill with any particular weapon should be specified in the Intelligence section of the profile page rather than in the Powers and Abilities section.

I hate this. This page is extremely outdated.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I think that a Marksmanship page seems uncontroversial to add, and if Chariot190 go-wrote this thread they can probably comment here freely.

 

[Tanin_iver]

BUMP

Anyway, I think that a Marksmanship page seems uncontroversial to add

Do u mean like a separate page instead of a sub section within Weapon Mastery Page?

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I think that a Marksmanship page seems uncontroversial to add.

Do u mean like a separate page instead of a sub section within Weapon Mastery Page?

I meant a separate powers and abilities page.

@M3X_2.0

 

[M3X_2.0]

I meant a separate powers and abilities page.

@M3X_2.0

People seem to disagree with the idea of a separated page.

 

[Agnaa]

Is that true? It seems worth tallying up the votes.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. I think that this seems like supernatural aim is a good idea for a separate page in our wiki, as it goes beyond regular weapon mastery.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Looks good

I can see the use of this page since some characters have exceptional aim and make use of such skill even without using weapons, and overtime there have been a few times people didn't know how to address it.

An example is Frieza sniping a bunch of hidden soldiers with extreme precision using his finger blasts in the Broly movie, people didn't really know how to address it.

Then I have a few instances of people doing it with pebbles or whatever other ranged ability, from energy to elements.

Of course this requires actual feats of marksmanship, and while it can often be related to Weapon Mastery and Enhanced Senses, it isn't always the case.

I think Marksmanship as an ability is separate enough from weapon mastery and common enough to be its own power. Someone like Bullseye, Usopp, Roland (Dark Tower), or really most gunslingers in westerns help illustrate a clear divide in just being skilled users of weapons and being expert marksman. Instead of lopping these characters ability to be accurate under weapon mastery, it's more accurate and makes more intuitive sense to give these characters an ability that more accurately represents their truth.

Anyway, I think that a Marksmanship page seems uncontroversial to add, and if Chariot190 go-wrote this thread they can probably comment here freely.

4 without me and Chariot (6)

This seems pretty redundant, as we have Weapon Mastery for this sort of ability at the very least which already notes this. As it says here:


I'm hard disagreeing with this addition. As this could eventually make the current Weapon Mastery look rather pointless. But at the same time, I could see this possibly working as a specific type addition for that page.

TBH this is indeed redundant with Weapon Mastery (cases that don't rely on weapons just fall on whatever element the attack's made of plus something in the Intelligence section), if anything the Weapon Mastery page could be expanded on.

Main issue is that this is just asking for a fancy label for characters that are particularly skilled with artillery and other long-range weaponry, but this seems unecessary as much we haven't required, say, a page specifically for skilled usage of close combat weaponry like swords, this is just inviting to make more and more rather specific subpages that overall are of little substance as their main content would be on the Intelligence page to begin with.

Sure, our purpose is to explain the capabilities to characters to our visitors, but this just seems overall detrimental and unecessary.

This is still weapon mastery lol
They are just a master of improvised weapons, not to mention even if you wanted to make those feats a different Marksmanship wouldn't even be what I label being able to do superhuman amount of damage with cards (For Bullseye I'd say damage boost or something at best, and I'm pretty sure Gambit just in fact imbues the objects he throws with energy)

yeah if you throw something with the intent to harm that is a weapon, and if you are really good at that that is weapon mastery

i disagree with the power existing as a standalone but i think it'd be fine to annex it to WM in some way

I disagree for similar reasons to given above, but @M3X_2.0 you need to relax with how aggressive you're being in this thread.

5 without you Agnaa. I don’t know your position yet.

 

[Agnaa]

I’d prefer creating a general combat expertise page. Such a merge should be easy to implement with just a few redirects.

Out of "Marksmanship and Weapon Mastery, separate or together", I'd prefer them together, but I'd ultimately prefer to merge them into a new page called Combat Expertise.

 

[Armorchompy]

Honestly I've kinda been more unsure about things, you can count me as neutral

 

[Armorchompy]

I still think Combat Expertise would be ideal and I'd prefer merged Marksmanship + WM to separate btw

 

[M3X_2.0]

I was merging them, but it became less of a priority since I had some other stuff to do.

 

[Antvasima]

What if we call the new page "Supernatural Aim" or "Supernatural Marksmanship" instead of just "Marksmanship"? I more have Bullseye and similar characters that go far beyond what is humanly possible in that regard in mind for this page. Would that help to convince any of the people who said no to this suggestion?

 

[Armorchompy]

I don't think it being necessarily superhuman helps, in fact I feel like that kinda makes it bad at its purpose without really addressing the actual issues. I would oppose that page.

 

[Antvasima]

Out of "Marksmanship and Weapon Mastery, separate or together", I'd prefer them together, but I'd ultimately prefer to merge them into a new page called Combat Expertise.

But with that particular phrase we would likely have to merge Martial Arts (unarmed combat) into it as well, which seems inappropriate and unnecessarily problematic.

 

[Armorchompy]

But with that particular phrase we would likely have to merge Martial Arts (unarmed combat) into it as well, which seems inappropriate and unnecessarily problematic.

That's idea though, there's a lot of grey area between martial arts and (cold) weapon mastery

 

[Antvasima]

I don't think it being necessarily superhuman helps, in fact I feel like that kinda makes it bad at its purpose without really addressing the actual issues. I would oppose that page.

Okay. That is unfortunate.

Let's hear what other staff members think as well. In worst case we can add an extra "Marksmanship" section to our "Weapon Mastery" page.

 

[Agnaa]

Focusing on going beyond human limits doesn't change anything for me.

My main contention is that most of the important "weapon mastery" for ranged weapons is marksmanship.

Being superhuman doesn't matter, since weapon mastery can cover superhuman levels anyway.

But with that particular phrase we would likely have to merge Martial Arts (unarmed combat) into it as well, which seems inappropriate and unnecessarily problematic.

I don't know if that is much of an issue in general. Many martial arts involve the use of weapons, and a lot of unarmed combat isn't really a named "martial art".

 

[Antvasima]

That's idea though, there's a lot of grey area between martial arts and (cold) weapon mastery

They are used with very different principles and lethality though, so I would prefer not.

 

[Antvasima]

Focusing on going beyond human limits doesn't change anything for me.

My main contention is that most of the important "weapon mastery" for ranged weapons is marksmanship.

Being superhuman doesn't matter, since weapon mastery can cover superhuman levels anyway.

I don't know if that is much of an issue in general. Many martial arts involve the use of weapons, and a lot of unarmed combat isn't really a named "martial art".

Okay. I suppose that adding a few "Types of Weapon Mastery" sections to our Weapon Mastery page seems appropriate then.