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Mario AP Downgrade

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StretchSebe said:
Damn bro, you still mad over Spongebob? đź’€

See, that's actual bad faith.

Seriously though: Are you actually still this mad over my involvement on the other side in a spongebob thread like a month ago? Move on, pal.
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? I don’t see how these random jabs on completely unrelated subjects count as good faith?

Just dial back on the personal attacks.
 
StretchSebe said:
Damn bro, you still mad over Spongebob? đź’€

See, that's actual bad faith.

Seriously though: Are you actually still this mad over my involvement on the other side in a spongebob thread like a month ago? Move on, pal.
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Uh, I don't even remember participating in a SpongeBob thread a month ago, let alone some rando in it

see what Mav said above
 
If you keep on taunting ppl especially Armor then you’re getting a warning
 
DaReaperMan said:
surprised it hasn't happened already lol
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Dude, I know you're still mad. It's ok. It's been a month. Move on with your life.
KingTempest said:
If you keep on taunting ppl especially Armor then you’re getting a warning
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All I've done is disagree in good faith with Armor, and talk with others on the subject. I made exactly one jab at someone who clearly hasn't been a part of this thread, and was just jumping in for a quick jab at me.

If you guys are going to unironically use that intimidate me, I'll stop posting entirely in this thread, sure. Yall have a good night (y)
 
Also gonna note another thing.

The only times Mario has canonically been stated to be challenged by Bowser was in Galaxy 2 while amped by the Grand Star and in Bowser's Fury.

If anything it's more consistent that Bowser has to amp himself and find some magical macguffins in order to be a threat to Mario and Co.

This notion that Giant Bowser and Bowser himself are stronger than Mario doesn't really hold up under scrutiny given how many amps and macguffins this guy has needed and still ended up losing.

In fact, list an example where Base Bowser explicitly overpowers Base Mario without some tomfoolery. Sports game stats is laughable when you use questionable canonicity for side modes as a negative. The game needs to be balanced.

Consistently random Yoshis can fend off a Giant Bowser. Even if a few were Baby Bowser we literally know the babies are comparable to their adult selves, a fact we can't ignore.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
Also gonna note another thing.

The only times Mario has canonically been stated to be challenged by Bowser was in Galaxy 2 while amped by the Grand Star and in Bowser's Fury.

If anything it's more consistent that Bowser has to amp himself and find some magical macguffins in order to be a threat to Mario and Co.

This notion that Giant Bowser and Bowser himself are stronger than Mario doesn't really hold up under scrutiny given how many amps and macguffins this guy has needed and still ended up losing.

In fact, list an example where Base Bowser explicitly overpowers Base Mario without some tomfoolery. Sports game stats is laughable when you use questionable canonicity for side modes as a negative. The game needs to be balanced.

Consistently random Yoshis can fend off a Giant Bowser. Even if a few were Baby Bowser we literally know the babies are comparable to their adult selves, a fact we can't ignore.
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Mario can't even harm Base Bowser without something amping him as recent as Odyssey so there's that
 
DaReaperMan said:
Mario can't even harm Base Bowser without something amping him as recent as Odyssey so there's that
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My man he can literally lift him off the ground and kick his ass more often than not. Bowser needs to make himself gigantic or take a powerup to keep up. Mario is 8-9/10 shown to be superior or equal to him atleast in base
 
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Just got home. One thing that does bother me about this downgrade is the sort of arbitrary tier placement. Like, based on all the anti-feats collected, you could legit say Mario is Tier 9, Tier 8, Tier 7, or Tier 6 entirely based on what you personally want him to be at
 
What about... 'Varies from "the highest tier" accepted in this downgrade to "the high tier previously accepted"'?

Given how inconsistent power display Mario verse is?
 
Jasonsith said:
What about... 'Varies from "the highest tier" accepted in this downgrade to "the high tier previously accepted"'?

Given how inconsistent power display Mario verse is?
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thetechmaster36 said:
From my perspective (and I'm just saying this as a general statement, I'm not saying this is only in Mario's case), a Varies rating seems more like a compromise than a solution.

For one, a Varies tier suggests that Mario's power fluctuates regularly and under circumstances, as we have used for Varies ratings time and time again. While there is certainly a wide range of feats spanning from as low as Tier 9 (albeit I don't think those are really what Mario should be rated as low as) to Tier 3 with the cosmic stuff, a majority of the feats under Mario's belt are done in his standard state. No power-ups, no Power Star enhancements or anything - hell, there's an entirely separate key for him on his page with a Power Star - just his standard state. Now yes, we are made at least somewhat aware that power-ups and the like can affect his strength, albeit the profile doesn't necessarily reflect this. But again, most of the feats we are presented with is done by base Mario. And taking into account the MASSIVE amount of feats that are done by standard Mario that aren't Tier 3, issues, such as the argument of outliers or inconsistencies, start to arise and it calls into question the legitimacy of such ratings.

And secondly, taking an excerpt directly from the Attack Potency page:

There has been no such canonical explanation for why Mario's feat range so wildly in tier. He could be swinging and pounding away at Tier 3 enemies in Super Mario Galaxy (2), but get consistently picked off by non-Tier 3 feats and enemies within subsequent games following Galaxy without an explanation or even some sort of allusion to reasoning as to why Mario is demonstrably weaker in that regard. Yes, obviously, they're not going to come up with some sort of powerscale-y type explanation, but something as to why his feats range as much as they do is necessary for a Varies rating.

For those reasons, I'm personally against a Varies rating.
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BLS said:
My man he can literally lift him off the ground and kick his ass and more often than not. Bowser needs to make himself gigantic or take a powerup to keep up. Mario is 8-9/10 shown to be superior or equal to him atleast in base
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my man we're talking about everything here

In the first 2 Super Mario Games Bowser can only be Harmed by a Fire Flower, in New Super Mario Bros Wii Mario can't harm Bowser by normal means, and literally had to run for his ******* life from Giant Bowser in the same game, in 3-D World Mario, Luigi, Peach, and a Blue Toad can't even harm Bowser without throwing his bombs back at him, even in Galaxy 1 Mario can't harm Bowser until he's outright vulnerable, and Mario has to throw shit back at Bowser in Galaxy 2, in Sunshine they couldn't harm Bowser, same as 64-

The list goes on that Base Mario and Luigi not being shit to Base Bowser's Durability is pretty consistent, in AP it's more of a "yeah they're comparable(Bowser can harm Mario and Co. in just about every appearance the two have together) but Bowser has occasionally done shit Mario was shown incapable of doing narratively"
 
DaReaperMan said:
Mario can't even harm Base Bowser without something amping him as recent as Odyssey so there's that
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I mean Bowser also pretty consistently is listed as a power type stronger than Mario physically in most sports / multiplayer games and such, iirc his physical power stats are usually higher in the RPGs, Bowser’s clearly supposed to be a bit more physically powerful/durable, but the bros can keep up via being comparable and more agile and skilled and such
 
Adem_Warlock69 said:
A bunch of verses have that problem, but we don't give em Varies
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I'm not concerned about a bunch of verses, I'm concerned about this goofy ahh plumber

It's even worse in this case because you have so many feats of different tiers, and a bunch of instances of characters being affected by something lower tier or being fine after a higher tier attack. Mario frankly has this worse than most verses
 
DaReaperMan said:
my man we're talking about everything here

In the first 2 Super Mario Games Bowser can only be Harmed by a Fire Flower, in New Super Mario Bros Wii Mario can't harm Bowser by normal means, and literally had to run for his ******* life from Giant Bowser in the same game, in 3-D World Mario, Luigi, Peach, and a Blue Toad can't even harm Bowser without throwing his bombs back at him, even in Galaxy 1 Mario can't harm Bowser until he's outright vulnerable, and Mario has to throw shit back at Bowser in Galaxy 2, in Sunshine they couldn't harm Bowser, same as 64-

The list goes on that Base Mario and Luigi not being shit to Base Bowser's Durability is pretty consistent, in AP it's more of a "yeah they're comparable(Bowser can harm Mario and Co. in just about every appearance the two have together) but Bowser has occasionally done shit Mario was shown incapable of doing narratively"
Click to expand...
And Mario defeats him even while he is amped in almost all of these games. I get the point about the nimbleness and "tricks" like the lava bridge, but it's consistently so that Mario defeats him in every game, narratively speaking Mario is comparable or "better"
 
Kirbonic_Pikmin said:
I mean Bowser also pretty consistently is listed as a power type stronger than Mario physically in most sports / multiplayer games and such, iirc his physical power stats are usually higher in the RPGs, Bowser’s clearly supposed to be a bit more physically powerful/durable, but the bros can keep up via being comparable and more agile and skilled and such
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Basically yeah, it's so consistent it's hilarious for the side games

Mario alone usually either tricks Bowser, uses an amp, or out-maneuvers Bowser into either harming myself or something else along those lines
 
BLS said:
And Mario defeats him even while he is amped in almost all of these games. I get the point about the nimbleness and "tricks" like the lava bridge, but it's consistently so that Mario defeats him in every game, narratively speaking Mario is comparable or "better"
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That is what we in the business call a "skill issue" lol
 
CloverDragon03 said:
It's even worse in this case because you have so many feats of different tiers, and a bunch of instances of characters being affected by something lower tier or being fine after a higher tier attack. Mario frankly has this worse than most verses
Click to expand...
A Varies tier definitely looks like a solution, but with the standards we have set in place, we can't apply it to Mario sadly. We need a reasoning for his extreme power range, that of which we don't have.

In my personal, humble opinion, I think the absolute lowest he should be rated is Tier 8. Like, THE lowest he should go is that. But, I really don't think that's suitable considering the lower-end feats in Tier 9 and 8 are casually done by many characters, so I think Tier 7-6 is a more appropriate rating.
 
BLS said:
Bowser is a fat slob
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Bowser is very bull-headed, his intelligence in largely in tech, but generally in a fight if he can't headbutt something to death he's in pretty bad shape, which is why the more nimble and clever Mario beats him so much
 
DaReaperMan said:
my man we're talking about everything here

In the first 2 Super Mario Games Bowser can only be Harmed by a Fire Flower, in New Super Mario Bros Wii Mario can't harm Bowser by normal means, and literally had to run for his ******* life from Giant Bowser in the same game, in 3-D World Mario, Luigi, Peach, and a Blue Toad can't even harm Bowser without throwing his bombs back at him, even in Galaxy 1 Mario can't harm Bowser until he's outright vulnerable, and Mario has to throw shit back at Bowser in Galaxy 2, in Sunshine they couldn't harm Bowser, same as 64-

The list goes on that Base Mario and Luigi not being shit to Base Bowser's Durability is pretty consistent, in AP it's more of a "yeah they're comparable(Bowser can harm Mario and Co. in just about every appearance the two have together) but Bowser has occasionally done shit Mario was shown incapable of doing narratively"
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Can't this be explained by "the characters grow in power along the years and games, hence the scaling between them also changes"?
 
omegabronic said:
Can't this be explained by "the characters grow in power along the years and games, hence the scaling between them also changes"?
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Uh, not really seeing as Odyssey pulls the exact same thing but in, say, the Mario and Luigi titles neither of the bros need to amp to harm Bowser.

Again, I do not know about Wonder, I haven't watched anything for that title yet
 
DaReaperMan said:
Uh, not really seeing as Odyssey pulls the exact same thing but in, say, the Mario and Luigi titles neither of the bros need to amp to harm Bowser.

Again, I do not know about Wonder, I haven't watched anything for that title yet
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I mean, if the characters grow in power, then situations were their scaling changes would happen all the time, like, bowser can also grow in power to justify this

Just trowing an idea, sorry if it counts as derail from the main topic
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
But hey armor while you're at it can you find anti feats for Sonic and Kirby and downgrade them too? Would really appreciate it if we wanna be the perfect little wiki full of consistent ratings for verses :)
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I mentioned this before in a previous revision thread when someone replied with a snide remark like this but Armor and everyone else who's helped make threads like these do not have infinite time and infinite knowledge of every other verse that has these issues, it takes a lot of time and effort to collect all these feats and references together for a revision thread. It is not something that can simply be willed into existence, so it is unreasonable to suggest that Armor is ignoring issues with how the Wiki scales Sonic and Kirby because of some bias when in truth he simply does not have the time and knowledge to make revision threads for those verses.

Would appreciate less comments like this going forward because it helps nobody.
 
Anyways, I'm not really sure how I feel about the downgrade from 3-C specifically, but I think I find the fundamental premise of this thread to be faulty. Like, there's a bunch of feats of different tiers, so why exactly is 6-C to Low 6-B being chosen?

To me, that's as arbitrary as going with 9-B/9-A, or 8-A, or 7-C/High 7-C/Low 7-B (some tiers I pulled out from the anti-feats collection). None of these tiers are exactly better than each other, and they all come with their own host of issues.

The issues raised are the following, in my eyes:
  • If the tier you find acceptable is a lower one like Tier 9 or 8, you run into the problem of "well how could they do all these Tier 7/Tier 6/even Tier 3 stuff." The more things you have to call outliers, the likelier it is that the scaling itself is just faulty.
  • If the tier you find acceptable is a higher one like Tier 7 or 6, or even Tier 3 for argument's sake, you run into the problem of "well look at all these lower tier stuff they struggle with."
  • If you try and argue for a Varies tier, you run into the problem of lacking a canon explanation for the variable power levels.
I genuinely believe this is a very lose-lose situation that runs into significant problems no matter which approach you take. It's not that characters perform feats of this level, it's that they struggle with things of each tier. As such, whichever tier is chosen is entirely arbitrary. So while I don't know whether or not I agree with a downgrade from 3-C, I do disagree with the fundamental premise of compiling all these anti-feats and picking 6-C for what seems like "just because."

And before someone asks what tier I think they should be: I don't know. Like I said, no matter what you choose, you run into a host of issues.
 
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