Mario AP Downgrade

[thetechmaster36]

I genuinely believe this is a very lose-lose situation that runs into significant problems no matter which approach you take.

Like I said, no matter what you choose, you run into a host of issues.

Such is the problem with having a verse that's absolutely enormous with such a wide variety of feats like this one. One moment, they could be destroying entire universes no sweat, but in the next, they could be struggling to open a can of beans.

It wouldn't be as big of a deal if not for the fact that Mario, as a franchise, has so many games and so many different feats that all don't mesh well together, not even the mid-range ones like Tier 6.

 

[AStrangeverse]

Such is the problem with having a verse that's absolutely enormous with such a wide variety of feats like this one. One moment, they could be destroying entire universes no sweat, but in the next, they could be struggling to open a can of beans.

It wouldn't be as big of a deal if not for the fact that Mario, as a franchise, has so many games and so many different feats that all don't mesh well together, not even the mid-range ones like Tier 6.

this is why Mario characters should just be Varies

 

[Robo432343]

i dont understand
what made you choose Low 6-B??

 

[thetechmaster36]

They literally can't be Varies under the current standards. I'll quote the AP page again:

“Varies” ratings should only be given to characters who have a canon explanation for why their statistics fluctuate. This does not include characters who are simply inconsistent or have unexplainable variations in their displayed power level. The fluctuations in power must have a clear and logical basis within the character's respective canon.

As it stands, unless someone can bring in a statement or something that alludes to it, Mario has no explanation for why the power levels have such a wide range from the low-ends of Tier 9 to Tier 3.

 

[AStrangeverse]

actual pain, but I understand

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

They literally can't be Varies under the current standards. I'll quote the AP page again:

As it stands, unless someone can bring in a statement or something that alludes to it, Mario has no explanation for why the power levels have such a wide range from the low-ends of Tier 9 to Tier 3.

Sure, but we literally don't have an adequate solution
The tier proposed here is totally arbitrary and has no basis whatsoever

 

[KingTempest]

Someone please list me every tier 3 Mario feat accepted

 

[thetechmaster36]

The tier proposed here is totally arbitrary and has no basis whatsoever

Arbitrary, maybe, but to say it has no basis is a bit misleading considering Tier 7-6 has more consistency than something like Tier 3 does.

And additionally, after doing a bit of searching in the previous thread, I found this sandbox from Armor, detailing several feats across the different tiers. And yes, there are some from Wario and DK, but assuming that the verse is indeed un-split and brought back together, the consistency of Tier 7 and 6 is solidified even more.

That's why Armor was proposing Tier 7-6 in the first place; it has a stable foundation.

 

[Agnaa]

“Varies” is not a solution.

Mario doesn’t have it worse such that he should fundamentally be treated differently. Having 30 tier 9 anti-feats, 10 tier 7-6 feats, and 3 tier 3-4 feats, is not substantially different from characters who have 10, 3, and 1 respectively. And should be treated similarly

I think the best way to choose an accurate tier in times like this is to find the rating where there is the same number of feats at or above that tier, as anti-feats at or below that tier. That's not arbitrarily eyeballing, it's finding the only place where there is neither a glut of anti-feats, nor a glut of feats above that level.

I’ve also seen some staff members in other threads endorse the selection criteria of “The tier where the difference between the number of feats on that tier, and the number of anti-feats below that tier is the highest”. But I think that’s a bit weirder since there can be multiple tiers satisfying that criteria for a character. And it starts to feel like a weaselly way to get the tier one wants if they start accepting certain deviations from it.

I don’t know enough about Mario’s feats to discuss this properly, but I suspect that if I did, I would find Armor’s suggestion superior to the status quo, even if it’s not ideal.

 

[Armorchompy]

Alright, so, most people expressed one of two doubts while I was sleeping, so I'll just answer to all of them at once generically.

• Why 6-C if most anti-feats are tier 8?

No tier will ever be 100% consistent. I tried to pick the highest tier that was supported by a great quantity of feats. The anti-feats still contrast it, but if Mario were rated 6-C the picture would still be far less inconsistent than what is currently considered the status quo. I find Tier 7 to be overall very acceptable, and 6-C just happened to be close enough for the rating to jump up to it. Ultimately picking a tier is always going to have some degree of subjectivity when the verse is so massive and varied, but I think it is overall a very fair rating, compared to the current ones which have all anti-feats firmly disproving them, questionable reasoning and little backing.

• Can we get a Varies rating?

This annoys a bit because it is one of the things I addressed in my blog, which I am starting to realize that nobody read. It's Point 2, if you want to go back and look, but I'll post it here:

Inconsistency alone doesn't warrant Varies ratings, there needs to be a proper mechanic for them. But frankly Mario isn't as inconsistent as one would think, there's a general portrayal of power that hovers around tier 8, sometimes peeking into 7 or 9. There's a lot of variation, of course, but that doesn't mean that there is absolutely zero consistency, it's just lower than our current ratings. It's a far cry from cartoon characters that range from 10-C to cosmic tiers on the regular with absolutely no rule or reason, and much closer to the inevitable inconsistencies of any other big franchise: Marvel, DC Comics, EU Star Wars, Pokémon... don't get me wrong, Mario is different from all of those as they are from one another, obviously every verse has its context and I am not pointing at these as a hard precedent to follow, but simply as examples of franchises with notable power fluctuation that does not grant their protagonists a Varies rating.

Now I am going to look at specific messages to respond to.

Also no Mario isn't greatly physically superior to base Bowser are you insane

 

[Armorchompy]

In my personal, humble opinion, I think the absolute lowest he should be rated is Tier 8. Like, THE lowest he should go is that. But, I really don't think that's suitable considering the lower-end feats in Tier 9 and 8 are casually done by many characters, so I think Tier 7-6 is a more appropriate rating.

Basically my thoughts yeah

Can't this be explained by "the characters grow in power along the years and games, hence the scaling between them also changes"?

Ah, kinda? Some Mario characters do grow in power but it can't really be a massive growth because their relations in power to other characters that don't go through their adventures remain comparable.

But hey armor while you're at it can you find anti feats for Sonic and Kirby and downgrade them too? Would really appreciate it if we wanna be the perfect little wiki full of consistent ratings for verses

Listen, this is me taking the bait but you know what? Sure Kirby, I know Kirby very well, he's my guy, I love that guy. So... Kirby antifeats... Ok, an apple falls on his head in Adventure, and he gets hurt a bit... hm... Yeah that's all I got. But he also has like what, 10+ cosmic feats on-screen by now? Just off the top of my head, Nightmare's explosion, hitting Marx into Nova hard enough it explodes, Megaton Punch, I think something in Dreamland 3, Sectonia spreading massive brambles on the planet in like 2 seconds, the entirety of Robobot's finale, that one Star Allies minigame where you stop a planet-busting meteor, and obviously Forgotten Land's ending. Probably more I'm forgetting of course. So I think the feat/antifeat ratio is a bit different from Mario here.

As for Sonic, unfortunately I barely have any knowledge of the series so I cannot engage with that side of your very fair and honest request, but if you or anyone else can gather enough anti-feats, and make a downgrade thread based on them, I would support it, if it's convincing enough. I'm told the IDW comics have plenty, start from there.

 

[Shadyboi0]

The ratio of feats to anti-feats in Sonic is way more in favor of the former. In layman's terms, Sega does what Nintendon't.

 

[Armorchompy]

Tagging a few more staff members that interacted with the previous thread (before the last stages which were about something different) @Eficiente @EliminatorVenom @Elizhaa @AKM sama

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

I genuinely struggle to think of Kirby anti feats that aren’t like, funny stage gimmicks like getting hit by a car (which doesn’t even kill you) or anything like that. Most games tend to have one pretty notable cosmic feat within it as well, which isn’t something you can say about most verses.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah Kirby is genuinely the absolute worst example you could think of, it's one of the most obviously and frequently cosmic game series out there.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Addressed in point 10 of my blog

So why is tier 6/7 more fine than tier 8?

 

[Armorchompy]

So why is tier 6/7 more fine than tier 8?

No tier will ever be 100% consistent. I tried to pick the highest tier that was supported by a great quantity of feats. The anti-feats still contrast it, but if Mario were rated 6-C the picture would still be far less inconsistent than what is currently considered the status quo. I find Tier 7 to be overall very acceptable, and 6-C just happened to be close enough for the rating to jump up to it. Ultimately picking a tier is always going to have some degree of subjectivity when the verse is so massive and varied, but I think it is overall a very fair rating, compared to the current ones which have all anti-feats firmly disproving them, questionable reasoning and little backing.

 

[Agnaa]

tbf I'd say that explains why 6/7 is more fine than tier 3, but not why it's better than tier 8. Its only real comment relevant to tier 8 is "picking tiers is hard and I think 6-C is fine".

But I wouldn't want bickering over exactly how much Mario gets downgraded to get in the way of the downgrade occurring.

 

[Armorchompy]

tbf I'd say that explains why 6/7 is more fine than tier 3, but not why it's better than tier 8. Its only real comment relevant to tier 8 is "picking tiers is hard and I think 6-C is fine".

But I wouldn't want bickering over exactly how much Mario gets downgraded to get in the way of the downgrade occurring.

I guess the way I'd explain it is that it's impossible to pick one tier 8 rating. Because there's plenty of feats from 8-C all the way up to 8-A, and then that naturally segways into the tier 7 stuff, all the way to 6-C. It looks like a big jump but it's composed of many smaller jumps, so it's a high ball but one with a good amount of backing behind it the way that I see it.

You could apply even more scrutiny than I did and try to find a mathematical average or something but I think that's 1) an unrealistic amount of effort 2) probably not really going to accurately capture the verse's portrayal either.

 

[Agnaa]

I think getting something like the median would be as close as we can get to a good portrayal, but know firsthand that such a thing is quite difficult.

If someone strongly believes that we ought to do something like that, the information's available for them to find such a tier and present a concrete case themselves.

 

[Armorchompy]

I think getting something like the median would be as close as we can get to a good portrayal, but know firsthand that such a thing is quite difficult.

I think it'd be unsustainable. To do so thoroughly (which I would consider a requirement) you'd need to parse through hundreds of games for all anti-feats and noteworthy feats, and then have to update the tiering every time a new game comes out, which is several times a year.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

This really helps nothing. It's extreme arbitrary and the stats will barely become more accurate if you do it. They'll still be dozens of wall level feats to keep it seemingly out of line. It's not better in any way, it just seems like "well, wall level is TOO low, so..."

 

[Armorchompy]

the stats will barely become more accurate if you do it

I beg to differ. 10+ backing feats rather than like 2/3, much closer to the overall portrayal of the series rather than half the tiering system apart from it, it is simply not correct that this isn't much closer to the general portrayal. 6-C is a reasonable high-ball, 3-C is a pure outlier. Also by saying this you do realize you're admitting that current stats are inaccurate, right?

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I beg to differ. 10+ backing feats rather than like 3, much closer to the overall portrayal of the series. It is simply not correct that this isn't much closer to the general portrayal- 6-C is a reasonable high-ball, 3-C is a pure outlier. Also by saying this you do realize you're admitting that current stats are inaccurate, right?

No, I'm admitting that the general idea behind the thread doesn't work, because whatever you do, it just does not make sense, if you're going for consistency. Mario simply isn't a series where you can find it.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

No, I'm admitting that the general idea behind the thread doesn't work, because whatever you do, it just does not make sense, if you're going for consistency. Mario simply isn't a series where you can find it.

Also, 3 cosmic feats?
I beg to differ
Just out of those at the top of my head
-Raphael the Raven
-SM64 world creation
-King Boo dimension creation
-Black Jewel
-Dreamy Luigi
-Bowser turning Yoshi's world into a pop up book
-Mr. L dimension
-Galaxy fuckery
-Numerous black hole feats
-The Stapler in Origami King eating the sun
I didn't even bring up any universal feats here

 

[Agnaa]

This really helps nothing. It's extreme arbitrary and the stats will barely become more accurate if you do it. They'll still be dozens of wall level feats to keep it seemingly out of line. It's not better in any way, it just seems like "well, wall level is TOO low, so..."

Having a dozen more feats supporting it is a lot more accurate, actually.

No, I'm admitting that the general idea behind the thread doesn't work, because whatever you do, it just does not make sense, if you're going for consistency. Mario simply isn't a series where you can find it.

It makes more sense than the current tiering.

No good reason has been given for why consistency can't be found in Mario. The best I've seen is "We may need to slightly tune it a few times a year", which is far from an impossibility.

 

[Deagonx]

I'm surprised this thread was so controversial that it's already nearing page 3 just 1 day later.

 

[Armorchompy]

No, I'm admitting that the general idea behind the thread doesn't work, because whatever you do, it just does not make sense, if you're going for consistency. Mario simply isn't a series where you can find it.

That doesn't allow you to just ignore the concept of it LMAO. How does "this series is inconsistent" translate to "ignore any and all anti-feats, rate verse as high as you can"?

• Raphael the Raven
  • Blatant gag feat. Literally just a rubberhose cartoon joke with zero actual mechanics explaining it.
• SM64 world creation
  • Officially rejected
• King Boo dimension creation
  • Not officially accepted, very questionable (those white splotches don't even look like stars, presence of a UES has to be proven, etc)
• Black Jewel
  • Officially rejected
• Dreamy Luigi
  • ... Is tier 2, and Mario doesn't scale to him.
• Bowser turning Yoshi's world into a pop up book
  • No arguments given as to why this should scale to AP, given
• Mr. L dimension
  • Not officially accepted, questionable.
• Galaxy fuckery
  • That would be the main feat, although I have thrown its scaling into question.
• Numerous black hole feats
  • Not a single one legit, whether due to them not meeting our standards, or characters being scaled to them by "tanking" them, which is a physical impossibility and also against our standards.
• The Stapler in Origami King eating the sun
  • Origami King comes after Paper Jam so these characters don't scale back to mainline Mario. Possibly legit (I don't know of it), but not relevant here.

Even being nice, there's like... four relevant feats here, and half of them have to be proven to even scale to physicals.

I didn't even bring up any universal feats here

Yeah cause they aren't accepted lol

 

[ImmortalDread]

I support the thread.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I'm surprised this thread was so controversial that it's already nearing page 3 just 1 day later.

I'm not

That doesn't allow you to just ignore the concept of it LMAO. How does "this series is inconsistent" translate to "ignore any and all anti-feats, rate verse as high as you can"?

• Raphael the Raven
  • Blatant gag feat. Literally just a rubberhose cartoon joke with zero actual mechanics explaining it.
• SM64 world creation
  • Officially rejected
• King Boo dimension creation
  • Not officially accepted, very questionable (those white splotches don't even look like stars, presence of a UES has to be proven, etc)
• Black Jewel
  • Officially rejected
• Dreamy Luigi
  • ... Is tier 2, and Mario doesn't scale to him.
• Bowser turning Yoshi's world into a pop up book
  • No arguments given as to why this should scale to AP, given
• Mr. L dimension
  • Not officially accepted, questionable.
• Galaxy fuckery
  • That would be the main feat, although I have thrown its scaling into question.
• Numerous black hole feats
  • Not a single one legit, whether due to them not meeting our standards, or characters being scaled to them by "tanking" them, which is a physical impossibility and also against our standards.
• The Stapler in Origami King eating the sun
  • Origami King comes after Paper Jam so these characters don't scale back to mainline Mario. Possibly legit (I don't know of it), but not relevant here.

Even being nice, there's like... four relevant feats here, and half of them have to be proven to even scale to physicals.

Yeah cause they aren't accepted lol

Raphael the Raven is a gag feat

As is almost every anti-feat you brought up

Also we literally treat paper and mainline Mario as the same lol
Mr. L dimension was discussed rigorously and accepted before we moved on to galaxy
"Mario doesn't scale to Dreamy Luigi's star feats"
Mario literally used luiginoids as a hammer LMFAO

Having a dozen more feats supporting it is a lot more accurate, actually.

It makes more sense than the current tiering.

No good reason has been given for why consistency can't be found in Mario. The best I've seen is "We may need to slightly tune it a few times a year", which is far from an impossibility.

"Having more feats is better"
Dude
It's still inconsistent. If you wanna play the number card, then how about we establish actual standards for what's consistent and what's not?
Cause if we don't, we can hypothetically take any plural number and say it's "consistent". Two universal feats? Consistent, there are several of them so they support each other. Or maybe 15 or so city feats isn't actually consistent? After all, we have 60 wall level "anti feats" to put against it. Playing the number card is senseless as long as we don't have clear standards on what EXACTLY is enough and what isn't.

 

[koopa3144]

Also we literally treat paper and mainline Mario as the same lol

A crt split Mario and Paper Mario so we don't anymore.

 

[Armorchompy]

As is almost every anti-feat you brought up

No there is a very clear difference, one that should be pretty obvious. Some of my anti-feats may be comedic in nature but the way they happen makes perfect sense in-story- guy gets hurt by something, goes "owie", that's pretty straightforward, whether you're supposed to have a laugh about it or not. Raphael is pure toon force shit with no other explanation.

Also we literally treat paper and mainline Mario as the same lol

Not anymore, they got split.

"Mario doesn't scale to Dreamy Luigi's star feats"
Mario literally used luiginoids as a hammer LMFAO

Either he scales to Dreamy Luigi, or he doesn't, and he ain't 2-B, so he doesn't.

 

[JJSliderman]

Doesn’t Bowser turning a world to a book rely on his magic, which he uses to attack Mario?

 

[Agnaa]

"Having more feats is better"
Dude
It's still inconsistent. If you wanna play the number card, then how about we establish actual standards for what's consistent and what's not?
Cause if we don't, we can hypothetically take any plural number and say it's "consistent". Two universal feats? Consistent, there are several of them so they support each other. Or maybe 15 or so city feats isn't actually consistent? After all, we have 60 wall level "anti feats" to put against it. Playing the number card is senseless as long as we don't have clear standards on what EXACTLY is enough and what isn't.

I already explained actual standards for this above.

If you think that Armor's estimation is incorrect, present one that's better. Just saying that Armor's is imperfect is insufficient.

3-C is not better, since it has fewer feats and more anti-feats than 6-C.

The methods I discussed earlier, can't let you take any plural number and say its consistent. Plus, the method I'm describing now where people present better tiers until no-one can be bothered investigating any further also doesn't let us take any number and say it's "consistent", since evidence and reasoning must be provided, and there will typically be one clear answer sticking out from all presented so far.

 

[Armorchompy]

Doesn’t Bowser turning a world to a book rely on his magic, which he uses to attack Mario?

Eh, UES are stricter than that. It's done off-screen so it could be a prep feat too, but even if it wasn't you don't really assume all magic stuff is comparable without evidence.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I already explained actual standards for this above.

If you think that Armor's estimation is incorrect, present one that's better. Just saying that Armor's is imperfect is insufficient.

3-C is not better, since it has fewer feats and more anti-feats than 6-C.

The methods I discussed earlier, can't let you take any plural number and say its consistent. Plus, the method I'm describing now where people present better tiers until no-one can be bothered investigating any further also doesn't let us take any number and say it's "consistent", since evidence and reasoning must be provided, and there will typically be one clear answer sticking out from all presented so far.

If you think that Armor's estimation is incorrect, present one that's better. Just saying that Armor's is imperfect is insufficient.

Armor is the one proposing a change from the status quo. It is his responsibility here to provide something that actually makes sense in turn

No there is a very clear difference, one that should be pretty obvious. Some of my anti-feats may be comedic in nature but the way they happen makes perfect sense in-story- guy gets hurt by something, goes "owie", that's pretty straightforward, whether you're supposed to have a laugh about it or not. Raphael is pure toon force shit with no other explanation.

Not anymore, they got split.

Either he scales to Dreamy Luigi, or he doesn't, and he ain't 2-B, so he doesn't.

Ok, so why do we assume paper Mario just grew in power from Paper Jam?

 

[Armorchompy]

Ok, so why do we assume paper Mario just grew in power from Paper Jam?

Paper Mario has a pretty established ability to grow in power through combat, PM64 makes it very blatant in particular. And unlike mainline it's never really contrasted.

Armor is the one proposing a change from the status quo. It is his responsibility here to provide something that actually makes sense in turn

Makes total sense to me man, and to most people, evidently.

 

[Agnaa]

Armor is the one proposing a change from the status quo. It is his responsibility here to provide something that actually makes sense in turn

And it makes more sense than the status quo (as well as more than any alternate suggestions, as there are no concrete ones). That's really all we need for revisions, we'll never be able to be certain that the CRTs we pass make the profiles perfect. There's a reason we allow CRTs to take place in multiple parts.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Armor is the one proposing a change from the status quo. It is his responsibility here to provide something that actually makes sense in turn

I mean...this thread's very proposal is meant to be his attempt at that.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Actually, we could give Paper Mario a key for every single game, since he only starts scaling to Mainline Mario after the sticker game