Maou Gakuin No Futekigousha Downgrade

[Tatsumi504]

the thing in the crystal are just possibilities and not actual worlds, the crystal can cause the possibilities to materialize in the actual world which is it job,

No, the crystal is a world of it's own, separate from reality. It is the sanctuary/ precinct/ divine domain of Nafta the God of the Future.

Misha points in front of me.

Scattered like stars across the brilliant azure sky are a variety of colorful landscapes: golden volcanoes, white lakes, thorny lands, and wheel-like cities.

"This is the azure sky of the gods. Every landscape you see is a divine domain."

It is the same as the Budding Divine City of Ennesuone or the Limited World of Nafta.

Divine Domains/ Sanctuaries are the Manifestation of a God's Order

'“Hmm, why did you create a town when you tried to give birth to Enne-chan?”

Eleonore raises the question.

"The city is the embodiment of the order of Ennesuone, like the Land of Traces possessed by the God of Traces or the Limited World of Nafta."

Even if the OP is right and the future's don't physically exist and are mere possibilities, this is defeated by the fact that the Future World Exists (Kandaquizorte). In other words, it's the embodiment/manifestation of separate infinite possibilities.

---

I will skip over the rest of the points in the OP as for one no new evidence has been presented and everything here has been gone over in the past thread were the rating was given. Instead I will bring up a point that was the crux of the failure to disprove the fact that these futures actually exist which was not included in the OP for some reason (they probably forgot) and that point is the mechanism behind how the God of Future sees the future.

The OP simply writes it off as Nafta simply has precognition, that they are just able to see the future however, that is fundamentally incorrect.
There's is an explanation given as to how they are able to view the future which is this

Then, with my blade, I slashed through Diedrich's divine eye.

"......Guahhhhhh......!!!!"

Fresh blood splatters, and Diedrich loses his light.

His body is possessed by the God of the Future. Nafta's divine eye has lost sight of the future.

The spear of Kandaquisorte that had pierced me corroded black and crumbled into tatters.

If we cannot see the future, we cannot limit it.
[...]
"...but...but...wh-why...?"

Diedrich questioned, as if puzzled.

"Why didn't Nafta's divine eye see this future ......?"
[...]
"Isn't ...... Nafta's blind spot a future without her?"

"The present, which Nafta cannot see, cannot be seen as the future, even by Nafta in an earlier time."

This is what she had said just a few minutes ago.

"In this future that we have arrived at, a part of Nafta's order, her divine eye, is absent. In other words, it was a blind spot that the past Nafta could not see."

It's a terribly simple logic.

If you destroy the divine eye, you cannot see the future. Nor from the past.

However, because they had the divine eye that could see the future, Nafta and Diedrich were only looking at it and did not think of that fact.

Basically, there's a blind spot in Nafta's divine eye that see's the future and that is a future without Nafta.
If she were to be killed or not exist in one future, she will not be able to see it and the reason for that is made clear.
Nafta in the past sees the future because a Nafta in the present is seeing that present. Simply, she sees the future through the eyes of her future self which is why if she doesn't exist in one instance, the Nafta of the Past will not see it. Conversely, if you were to destroy her divine eye in the present, her past self will not be able to see that moment and the one's beyond it after her eyes are destroyed (until they heal of course).
So with that said, permit me to ask everyone here, if the many futures she sees don't actually exist and is a mere possibility until she materializes them, how has she been able to see the future?

---

Aside the fact that if this was true, this means everything is branching out infinitely, that would mean there are uncountable infinite Anos existing somewhere in some timelines, Anos that are as strong as the current one and stronger even. And this current anos was able to kill all uncountable infinite of those anos.
Practically literally infinite timelines exists and infinite of those crystals exists and each also hold infinite timelines and like that, till you get to low 1-A, and to say the least there is no proof of that and it is just BS.

Honestly my reaction each time you bring this up is "wtf!". Neither @Fixxed nor @EldemadeDityjon could've even thought of this despite their abnormal tendencies to wank. Honestly it's a disappointment coming from an opponent of your caliber using baseless conjecture but in the end neither of us know the other personally so I guess you have no obligation to meet my expectations in the first place.

It's not an infinite recurring amount of infinite futures with each containing infinite futures as you're proposing. I'd simply propose it as a kind of loop i guess such that Nafta's Kandaquizorte (Kn) is a superset containing other Kandaquizorte's (n1, 2, 3, 4...) but not that any single element (nx) in (Kn) will be a superset of it's own containing (n1.1, 1.2...), (n2.1, 2.2...) but will rather always contain ((Kn)-(nx))thus the overall elements never increase and stay the same.
Now what I typed might end up being absolutely incomprehensible and stupid but I'm not even a regular not to mention a master at stuff like this so i have no other clue on how to represent it. Hopefully someone understands and does it for me.
Going by occam's razor, my interpretation is the right one

---

I'm not privy to the recent tier 2 revisions neither am I confident in my capacity to understand them so I honestly don't know how it'll turn out but from what I can understand according to what i read here about DT's statement, if timelines that branch off another don't meet again at any point in time then they qualify as a separate infinite time of their own, did i get this right?

Continuing on the assumption that I got it correctly, the infinite futures here do not branch off from another one.
The way the story goes is that everything is according to Order. For anything an Order governs, Order must have existed before it before that thing can exist. Order is also providence (Fate), is unchangeable and has long been predetermined thus, the future has existed long before time itself and as such, it can not be said to have branched off from any point of time and so I rest my case here.
I will not be entertaining any replies until @ImmortalDread has concluded her research and analysis of the semantics and is ready to give her opinion on the matter to avoid cluttering the thread and I ask that others please do the same as well.

 

[Deceived3596]

Man... reading through this thread, gathering evidence and seeing if i'm still in contention with some of Pain's interpretations (i still am) made me realize how absolutely cacapoopoo this series is.

I'm just dropping that one response post and skedaddling from this thread, y'all Maou Gakuin goons can handle the rest.

 

[Reiner04]

Basically, there's a blind spot in Nafta's divine eye that see's the future and that is a future without Nafta.
If she were to be killed or not exist in one future, she will not be able to see it and the reason for that is made clear.
Nafta in the past sees the future because a Nafta in the present is seeing that present. Simply, she sees the future through the eyes of her future self which is why if she doesn't exist in one instance, the Nafta of the Past will not see it. Conversely, if you were to destroy her divine eye in the present, her past self will not be able to see that moment and the one's beyond it after her eyes are destroyed (until they heal of course).
So with that said, permit me to ask everyone here, if the many futures she sees don't actually exist and is a mere possibility until she materializes them, how has she been able to see the future?

So she views those futures, whether in the past or present, through the eyes of her future self?

 

[Tatsumi504]

So she views those futures, whether in the past or present, through the eyes of her future self?

Yes, think of it as the linked vision the pain's in Naruto share but they are also linked to the eyes of their future selves

 

[Deagonx]

No, the crystal is a world of it's own, separate from reality

That's the claim, at least, but I don't see any good evidence for it.

Even if the OP is right and the future's don't physically exist and are mere possibilities, this is defeated by the fact that the Future World Exists (Kandaquizorte). In other words, it's the embodiment/manifestation of separate infinite possibilities.

That doesn't appear to be the case, no. It's referred to as a "limited world" made of crystal and doesn't appear to be anything more than a small-scale manifestation of a specific future.

if the many futures she sees don't actually exist and is a mere possibility until she materializes them, how has she been able to see the future?

This seems like an extremely weird question. Why would she be unable to see them if they're just possibilities? That's a very common fictional ability.

 

[Reiner04]

Yes

Then I can agree that her future self exists, her divine eyes exists to see them and so the world.

This seems like an extremely weird question. Why would she be unable to see them if they're just possibilities? That's a very common fictional ability

Because if only one of them is real then her past self must not be able to see other possibilities which will actually cease to exist, as stated in the scan itself, her past self will be able to see only those futures in which she exist or the world itself exist (for her to exist ofc)

In this future that we have arrived at, a part of Nafta's order, her divine eye, is absent. In other words, it was a blind spot that the past Nafta could not see."

 

[Reiner04]

The question should be, how the past self of present nafta could see infinite possibilities, if present was the only future in which she exist or the present is the only existing future.

 

[Theglassman12]

@ImmortalDread Dread... the crux of the tier 1 arguments is the fact that there's infinite upon infinite amounts of 2-A realms that stacked together would make the Bubble worlds 5-D, plus with the silver sea seeing the Bubble worlds as small in comparison. If the main crux of the argument is gone then Bubble worlds at bare minimum don't become tier 1 structures anymore.

Anyways are there any scans or statements in the series that remotely states that possibilities = alternate realities or timelines? Because that's kind of important here.

 

[Deagonx]

Because if only one of them is real then her past self must not be able to see other possibilities which will actually cease to exist, as stated in the scan itself, her past self will be able to see only those futures in which she exist or the world itself exist (for her to exist ofc)

I really don't find this convincing at all. I don't believe it's at all necessary for them to be "real" for her to see them from the eyes of her future self. And I do not believe this sort of rationalization is more critical than the explicit evidence that says they are unrealized futures.

 

[ImmortalDread]

@ImmortalDread Dread... the crux of the tier 1 arguments is the fact that there's infinite upon infinite amounts of 2-A realms that stacked together would make the Bubble worlds 5-D, plus with the silver sea seeing the Bubble worlds as small in comparison. If the main crux of the argument is gone then Bubble worlds at bare minimum don't become tier 1 structures anymore.

No, it is because of the size comparison, within the standards, let alone 2-A cosmology, you can get 5D through low 2-C. The requirement is 4D space, not 2-A tier
Read this thread since I actually discussed there and saw that 2-A is not even a factor for that.

 

[Georredannea15]

No, it is because of the size comparison, within the standards, let alone 2-A cosmology, you can get 5D through low 2-C. The requirement is 4D space, not 2-A tier
Read this thread since I actually discussed there and saw that 2-A is not even a factor for that.

Then many verses should be Tier 1 LMAO

 

[ImmortalDread]

Then many verses should be Tier 1 LMAO

I have no clue how your comment is being relevant here.

 

[Theglassman12]

@ImmortalDread then that's just wrong then, because a lot of verses can get to that level easily if it was only just Low 2-C

 

[Georredannea15]

I have no clue how your comment is being relevant here.

That's exactly what I mean

 

[ImmortalDread]

@ImmortalDread then that's just wrong then, because a lot of verses can get to that level easily if it was only just Low 2-C

Then fix the standards, the standards explicitly stated this.

It is not like we are discussing in the grounds of nothingness, the standards exist.

A cosmology where the entirety of our 3-dimensional universe is in fact a subset of a much greater 4-dimensional space, or generalizations of this same scenario to higher numbers of dimensions; i.e A cosmology where the four-dimensional spacetime continuum is just the infinitesimal surface of a 5-dimensional object, and etc.

Characters or objects that are capable of significantly affecting[1], creating and/or destroying an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Common fictional examples of spaces representing such sizes are space-time continuums (the entire past, present and future of 3-dimensional space) of a universal scale.

"Low 1-C: Low Complex Multiverse level
Characters or objects that can affect, create and/or destroy the entirety of spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model (Low 2-C structures, in plain English.) In terms of "dimensional" scale, this can be equated to 5 and 6-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 5 to R ^ 6)"

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

@ImmortalDread then that's just wrong then, because a lot of verses can get to that level easily if it was only just Low 2-C

I have bad news for you in that case.

 

[Reiner04]

I really don't find this convincing at all. I don't believe it's at all necessary for them to be "real" for her to see them from the eyes of her future self. And I do not believe this sort of rationalization is more critical than the explicit evidence that says they are unrealized futures.

Can I see the scan which says that they're "unrealised futures"? Rather than that future is unpredictable? It's explicitly stated that she views future through future eyes, so all the possibilities past one has seen through the eyes of present, are real for having the nafta, is there any strong evidence to suggest future possibilities aren't real when the evidences are strongly hinting otherwise?

 

[ImmortalDread]

I have bad news for you in that case.

Not bad, it just makes sense. Read the comments, I also thought like Glass and you, you need 2-A for that, but you need low 2-C or 4D, that's it.

 

[Reiner04]

Anyway, leave 6D, 5D shit out of this thread ppl, OP has clearly said she don't care and don't mess her thread. Create your own thread for your own issues.

 

[Georredannea15]

Then fix the standards, the standards explicitly stated this.

It is not like we are discussing in the grounds of nothingness, the standards exist.

The infinity mentioned here is uncountable infinity and there must be a dimensional reference within the verse.

 

[ImmortalDread]

There is in no standards has been stated that you need 2-A, Georr. Drop it and no need to derail.

 

[Reiner04]

The infinity mentioned here is uncountable infinity and there must be a dimensional reference within the verse.

Leave this shit as I said, I am getting sick of continously seeing this random stuff coming between the thread when main topic at the hand is being discussed.

 

[Georredannea15]

Leave this shit as I said, I am getting sick of continously seeing this random stuff coming between the thread when main topic at the hand is being discussed.

Dude you really should stop crying. Stop acting like a child. You're the ones who said, "Being big in a Low 2-C build is enough for Tier 1" and derailed.

 

[Theglassman12]

@ImmortalDread You do realize that standard is in regards to transcending time and space in regards to a 4-D structure right? The mathematically bigger structures means jack shit with that standard here when in regards to 4-D structures reaching a 5-D level right?

Anyways I'm dropping the topic here, anything at all on possibilities means timelines?

 

[Reiner04]

Anyways are there any scans or statements in the series that remotely states that possibilities = alternate realities or timelines? Because that's kind of important here.

Nafta views the future with eyes of her future self, if only one future is true and others were not then as written, he shouldn't be able to see it but he can, proving that they're real.

 

[RaveeCPN]

Dude you really should stop crying. Stop acting like a child. You're the ones who said, "Being big in a Low 2-C build is enough for Tier 1" and derailed.

They are not saying anything wrong though. If you are bigger than the "infinity" of a L2C structure, that means L1C.

 

[Georredannea15]

They are not saying anything wrong though. If you are bigger than the "infinity" of an L2C structure, that means L1C.

Basically true but wrong as hell without context. Many verses would then qualify for Tier 1.

 

[Reiner04]

Anyway, let's leave it for another day, I do not want this thread to become mess with all topics combined. In the absence of OP it's not good to ruin the thread.

 

[ImmortalDread]

@ImmortalDread You do realize that standard is in regards to transcending time and space in regards to a 4-D structure right? The mathematically bigger structures means jack shit with that standard here when in regards to 4-D structures reaching a 5-D level right?

Anyways I'm dropping the topic here, anything at all on possibilities means timelines?

No it is not. In no quotes here referring to "transcending time and space".

First standards comes from "Q: When are higher dimensions valid, then?" - no business of what you are talking
second standard is from tiering system
3rd one is from low 1-C description.

 

[Deagonx]

Can I see the scan which says that they're "unrealised futures"? Rather than that future is unpredictable?

It says they are not materialized.

 

[RaveeCPN]

Anyway, to give my opinion, I disagree with the OP

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

This tier 1 talk is derailing. If the downgrade is passed, then we can talk about the implications for tier 1, okay? Now, as Glass asked, is there anything showing that possibilities = timelines?

 

[ImmortalDread]

They are not saying anything wrong though. If you are bigger than the "infinity" of a L2C structure, that means L1C.

Hell, I thought it was 2-A at first, but looking from your comments and Milly ones, they are not even required to be.

 

[Reiner04]

It says they are not materialized.

Not really a point, it says future of the given world is not materialised, because if it'll be then possibilities will cease to exist, we don't know which branch will occur as future of the main timeline.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

There exist possible rating my friends.
If we are still discussing and debating whether the future is real or just a mere possibilities, we can use possible rating to justify 2-A crystal world while retaining 2-C rating.

 

[Reiner04]

Anyway but before that there must be a evidence that only one future exist while all others aren't real when nafta in them that exist is real.

 

[Georredannea15]

There exist possible rating my friends.
If we are still discussing and debating whether the future is real or just a mere possibilities, we can use possible rating to justify 2-A crystal world while retaining 2-C rating.

"possibly" scaling doesn't work that way.

I don't understand what you mean but I think you are talking about "possibly" scaling.

 

[Chasekilleen]

「<未来世水晶> カンダクイゾルテは、この世界の数多の
未来、それは世界の形に等しいでしょう。 あなたの行い
は、世界と自分とどちらが先に滅ぶか比べようというも
の。 結論は火を見るよりも明らかでしょう」

<Future World Crystal> Kandakui Zolte embodies countless futures of our world, mirroring its very shape. Your actions will determine whether the world or yourself will perish first. The results are so obvious.

「未来はなに一つ決まってはいません。 ナフタの愛ととも
にそこには無限の可能性が広がり、人々は希望を胸に、 よ
りよい未来をつかみとる。 竜騎士団よ、 恐れることはあり
ません」

Nothing is set in stone for the future. The possibilities expands endlessly with the love of Nafta, People hold onto hope in their hearts to seize a better future. There is nothing to be afraid of, Dragon Knights.

 

[Tatsumi504]

I really don't find this convincing at all. I don't believe it's at all necessary for them to be "real" for her to see them from the eyes of her future self. And I do not believe this sort of rationalization is more critical than the explicit evidence that says they are unrealized futures.

It's that the way i see the future is by looking at it through the eyes of my future self. My future self will be seeing the present and my past self will see that present as the future.

If these futures are only possibilities, i should only be able to see one future not multiple ones.
Say I have an appointment I'm gonna be late for but need to take a shit. If I do take a shit before leaving for it, my past self should only see me taking a shit. He shouldn't be able to see me clenching my ass the entire day because I didn't take a shit.

 

[1Nairove]

I agree