Another shot at Yggdrasil (God of War)

[Darius2036]

I've been wanting to try something different after my last post:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/yggdrasils-size-god-of-war.147256/

The Realm Between Realms is described as the space that exists outside/between all the other realms, and the realms are different dimensions with their own time flow/axis in regards to the Yggdrasil existing inside the Realm Between Realms.

Therefore, the space of the Realm Between Realms that contains the realms could be something akin to a higher-dimensional plane with an additional axis (The Yggdrasil within the Realm Between Realms is already a higher dimensional structure that transcends spacetime).

We also know that the Realm Between Realms' existence should also be bound to Yggdrasil just like everything else in all of creation, considering all there was before the realms even existed were Ginnungagap and the primordial forces of ice and fire.

Edit: Ragnarok was made from the power that Surtr absorbed from Spark of the World, which gave birth the first Realms; this would include the Realm Between Realms, which fits considering Spark of the World exists outside the realms in the place where Muspelheim and Niflheim meet, AKA Ginnungagap, which in RL norse myths is located in the middle of the two, which is also mentioned in the game.

Odin slayed Ymir, a being who came directly from the union of Muspelheim and Niflheim (Ginnungagap/Spark of the World).

 

[Planck69]

All of this is true but like, whether it actually qualifies for Low 1-C is another matter.

 

[Darius2036]

All of this is true but like, whether it actually qualifies for Low 1-C is another matter.

I mean, multiple verses did get away with it with the whole "infinite sized higher dimensional space that exists outside/between spacetime continuums".

Plus, it would seem pretty straight forward for me:

9 Realms (4D spacetimes) < Realm Between Realms (5D space) < Yggdrasil

 

[Planck69]

Yeah but like, those have their own context for it.

I guess I can call staff to check this out.

@Maverick_Zero_X @Elizhaa @Ultima_Reality @Theglassman12 @KLOL506 @Celestial_Pegasus

 

[KLOL506]

I mean, multiple verses did get away with it with the whole "infinite sized higher dimensional space that exists outside/between spacetime continuums".

Plus, it would seem pretty straight forward for me:

9 Realms (4D spacetimes) < Realm Between Realms (5D space) < Yggdrasil

Multiple verses getting away with it doesn't mean it would be the same for other verses even if they fulfill similar conditions. No.

We also know that the Realm Between Realms' existence should also be bound to Yggdrasil just like everything else in all of creation, considering all there was before the realms even existed were Ginnungagap and the primordial forces of ice and fire.

Edit: Ragnarok was made from the power that Surtr absorbed from Spark of the World, which gave birth the first Realms; this would include the Realm Between Realms, which fits considering Spark of the World exists outside the realms in the place where Muspelheim and Niflheim meet, AKA Ginnungagap, which in RL norse myths is located in the middle of the two, which is also mentioned in the game.

One small issue. Spark of the World is Ginnungagap. Ginnungagap is encompassed by Yggdrasil.

I've been wanting to try something different after my last post:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/yggdrasils-size-god-of-war.147256/

The Realm Between Realms is described as the space that exists outside/between all the other realms, and the realms are different dimensions with their own time flow/axis in regards to the Yggdrasil existing inside the Realm Between Realms.

You forgot Realm Shift also proving the realms to be separate space-time continuums but whatever.

Therefore, the space of the Realm Between Realms that contains the realms could be something akin to a higher-dimensional plane with an additional axis (The Yggdrasil within the Realm Between Realms is already a higher dimensional structure that transcends spacetime).

"Transcends time and space" itself is... very vague of a term that really doesn't mean much.

Not only that, getting Tier 1 out of merely encompassing a realm and being infinitely bigger than said realm has kind of been on a severely shaky road as of late, some people intend to revise it.

 

[Darius2036]

Multiple verses getting away with it doesn't mean it would be the same for other verses even if they fulfill similar conditions. No.

My main inspirations were Kingdom Hearts and Bayonetta. If you have the time, you could point me out the differences between this and those.

One small issue. Spark of the World is Ginnungagap. Ginnungagap is encompassed by Yggdrasil.

Doesn't matter. Scaling to Spark of the World/Ginnungagap would be enough. Plus characters like Thor and Ragnarok-Surtr are already capable of harming the tree that scales above Spark of the World/Ginnungagap.

 

[KLOL506]

My main inspirations were Kingdom Hearts and Bayonetta. If you have the time, you could point me out the differences between this and those.

Biggest one is the lack of a size comparison statement, both sides if I recall, state to view the realms as insignificant compared to them.

 

[Planck69]

Biggest one is the lack of a size comparison statement, both sides if I recall, state to view the realms as insignificant compared to them.

Unless we revised or discarded the statement in the novel, the branches that hold up the Nine Realms stretch to infinity relative to the Realms on them.

Not arguing for or against the thread but thought I should point this out.

 

[KLOL506]

Unless we revised or discarded the statement in the novel, the branches that hold up the Nine Realms stretch to infinity relative to the Realms on them.

Not arguing for or against the thread but thought I should point this out.

I believe you'd still need a size comparison of viewing the realms as insignificant to the tree itself. It's why Yggdrasil lost its Tier 1 rating, because the whole "mid-point" argument was the only supporting statement for it until Ragnarok shot an arrow in its knee.

 

[Planck69]

I believe you'd still need a size comparison of viewing the realms as insignificant to the tree itself. It's why Yggdrasil lost its Tier 1 rating, because the whole "mid-point" argument was the only supporting statement for it until Ragnarok shot an arrow in its knee.

I mean, there isn't much more insignificant you can get than being infinitely smaller than a structure that transcends space and time. Though, it'd probably be more 2-A than Low 1-C based on other verses. Low 1-C qualification has always been a bit.... obtuse. Even moreso than the higher tiers.

 

[KLOL506]

I mean, there isn't much more insignificant you can get than being infinitely smaller than a structure that transcends space and time. Though, it'd probably be more 2-A than Low 1-C based on other verses. Low 1-C qualification has always been a bit.... obtuse. Even moreso than the higher tiers.

Again tho, "transcends time and space" in and out of itself is so vague of a qualification for Low 1-C that on its own, it means nothing.

 

[KLOL506]

BTW, it ain't 2-A, under current standards it'd be Low 1-C, Bayo and KH are both that because of it.

Buuuuuuuuuuut I guess it's a standards issue rather than a verse-specific issue TBF.

 

[Fixxed]

I still think yggdrasil is low 1C structure

But this thread will not give back it rating, yeah transcend, exist before all creation, and infinitely bigger than low 2C structure not by default give higher dimensional structure, it just will have "possibly" rating at the most of the most

 

[KLOL506]

I still think yggdrasil is low 1C structure

But this thread will not give back it rating, yeah transcend, exist before all creation, and infinitely bigger than low 2C structure not by default give higher dimensional structure, it just will have "possibly" rating at the most of the most

Nah, it won't qualify even as a "possibly" rating.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Biggest one is the lack of a size comparison statement, both sides if I recall, state to view the realms as insignificant compared to them.

Bayonetta makes a metaphor alluding to that. Kingdom Hearts irrefutably asserts the Ocean Between is infinitely bigger in comparison to a singular space-time, which would be Low 1-C regardless.

 

[Planck69]

Bayonetta makes a metaphor alluding to that. Kingdom Hearts irrefutably asserts the Ocean Between is infinitely bigger in comparison to a singular space-time, which would be Low 1-C regardless.

So, a structure that's infinitely bigger on comparison to a space-time continuum would be Low 1-C?

 

[ImmortalDread]

So, a structure that's infinitely bigger on comparison to a space-time continuum would be Low 1-C?

A structure is being bigger in size than 2-A is low 1-C, not bigger than low 2-C

 

[ShivaShakti]

So, a structure that's infinitely bigger on comparison to a space-time continuum would be Low 1-C?

Infinitely larger than 4-D is Low 1-C, yes. Regardless of it is Low 2-C, 2-B, or 2-A. It simply needs to be infinitely larger than a 4-D object.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

A structure is being bigger in size than 2-A is low 1-C, not bigger than low 2-C

Incorrect, the exact FAQ statement is a 4-dimensional structure, not explicitly a 2-A one.

A cosmology where the entirety of our 3-dimensional universe is in fact a subset of a much greater 4-dimensional space, or generalizations of this same scenario to higher numbers of dimensions; i.e A cosmology where the four-dimensional spacetime continuum is just the infinitesimal surface of a 5-dimensional object, and etc.

So, a structure that's infinitely bigger on comparison to a space-time continuum would be Low 1-C?

So, yes.

 

[ImmortalDread]

To be honest, tier 2 does not depend on this because, as per the tiering system, the size of low 2-C is not infinite from the outset.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

To be honest, tier 2 does not depend on this because, as per the tiering system, the size of low 2-C is not infinite from the outset.

Strawman argument, the explicit argument is being infinitely superior to a 4-D cosmology. 2-A is not a prerequisite.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I agree with that, I really wanted to see the verse getting low 1-C/ 1-C, my big dream lol

 

[ImmortalDread]

The fact that one can exceed the size of a low 2-C structure without falling into the low 1-C category suggests that there is no indication of me misrepresenting the argument.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

The fact that one can exceed the size of a low 2-C structure without falling into the low 1-C category suggests that there is no indication of me misrepresenting the argument.

They can do that if they’re not uncountably infinitely superior. You misrepresented the argument by asserting you need a 2-A cosmology, when all a 2-A cosmology is merely an infinite amount of Low 2-C spaces. Being uncountably infinite in comparison to a single timeline is capable of achieving the same outcome.

 

[ImmortalDread]

You can exceed a low 2-C structure in an infinite manner, as the next level of exceedance would results in a countably infinite structure. To achieve low 1-C, an uncountably infinite structure is required, which necessitates exceeding a 2-A structure instead of a low 2-C structure. Moreover, the reason my verse and other verses based on it are classified as low 1-C is due to the presence of a 2-A cosmology.

The infinite amount of spaces in the low 1-C category is not simply or “merely” a collection of low 2-C spaces. While it does include an infinite amount of low 2-C spaces, it also requires an uncountably infinite structure that exceeds the limitations of tier 2, generally speaking.

A single low 2-C space is not considered to be infinitely sized according to the tiering system
(otherwise, I am questioning you what is the difference between low 2-C and 2-A)

A statement claiming that a structure is larger than a low 2-C structure does not necessarily place it in the low 1-C category. It could belong to tier 2 as well.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Where did you copy paste that from?

 

[ImmortalDread]

An infinity that contains another infinity does not mean the first one is strictly bigger. As we know, the set of rationals encompasses the set of integers (which is countable infinite) and the latter encompasses/contains the set of naturals as a subset (also infinite), but the three are still all the same size. None of them are uncountable. Subsets don't inherently mean smaller size, as said logic does not work when you are taking infinite size into account.

This illustrates some of the more unintuitive properties of sets with infinite elements: Namely, given a set X, it being a subset of another set Y does not imply that Y > X in terms of size. An example of this is how the set of all natural numbers contains both the odd numbers and even numbers, yet all of these sets in fact have the same number of elements. - tiering system FAQ

 

[ShivaShakti]

You can exceed a low 2-C structure in an infinite manner, as the next level of exceedance would results in a countably infinite structure. To achieve low 1-C, an uncountably infinite structure is required, which necessitates exceeding a 2-A structure instead of a low 2-C structure. Moreover, the reason my verse and other verses based on it are classified as low 1-C is due to the presence of a 2-A cosmology.

Furthermore, it is important to note that the infinite amount of spaces in the low 1-C category is not simply or “merely” a collection of low 2-C spaces. While it does include an infinite amount of low 2-C spaces, it also requires an uncountably infinite structure that exceeds the limitations of low 2-C.

It should be emphasized that a single low 2-C space is not considered to be infinitely sized according to the tiering system.
A statement claiming that a structure is larger than a low 2-C structure does not necessarily place it in the low 1-C category. It could belong to tier 2 as well.

Dread.

This all just wrong, please stop giving misinformation.

Low 2-C, and more importantly time (or the fourth dimension) is typically considered to be infinite by necessity. When a time-space is finite, we don't quantify it on the wiki.

You say "uncountable infinity" is required, but you can't exactly be countabily infinitely larger than something which is already infinite.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Where did you copy paste that from?

I faced a similar issue in the cosmology of my verse, so ya.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Dread.

This all just wrong, please stop giving information.

Low 2-C, and more importantly time (or the fourth dimension) is typically considered to be infinite by necessity. When a time-space is finite, we don't quantify it on the wiki.

Mind telling me what is the difference between low 2-C and 2-A if it is infinite in size as you said? IF time-space is finite, then "infinite larger" is 2-A, not low 1-C

You say "uncountable infinity" is required, but you can't exactly be countabily infinitely larger than something which is already infinite.

You can, look at the post above.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Mind telling me what is the difference between low 2-C and 2-A if it is infinite in size as you said? IF time-space is finite, then "infinite larger" is 2-A, not low 1-C

You can, look at the post above.

Your post doesn't apply, we aren't talking about sets.

We only index Low 2-C and 2-A as we do, due to a concession to fictional depictions. In reality there is no difference as they are both infinitely 4-D.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Mind telling me what is the difference between low 2-C and 2-A if it is infinite in size as you said? IF time-space is finite, then "infinite larger" is 2-A, not low 1-C

I like how this same question isn't asked for 5D and plus.

Unlike Tier 2, where you can go from single 4D to Infinite number of 4D structures.
No such facility of scaling is present of 5D or above.

The sooner, Ultima and DTDT fix tier 2 and make it similar to Tier 1 the better.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I like how this same question isn't asked for 5D and plus.

I don't know, I feel there is a big difference between 5D and 6D in terms of infinity.

Unlike Tier 2, where you can go from single 4D to Infinite number of 4D structures.

There is no difference if we account the real psychics into this.

No such facility of scaling is present of 5D or above.

The sooner, Ultima and DTDT fix tier 2 and make it similar to Tier 1 the better.

Meh, alright.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Your posty doesn't apply, we aren't talking about sets.

We only index Low 2-C and 2-A as we do, due to a concession to fictional depictions. In reality there is no difference as they are both infinitely 4-D.

If you already acknowledge that there is no distinction, then exceeding a low 2-C structure, which is not considered infinite according to our tiering system, would not result in low 1-C but rather 2-A.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

A single low 2-C space is not considered to be infinitely sized according to the tiering system

This is wrong, considering the exact tiering system disagrees with you. Not sure how you missed this, in your tireless lust to become a moderator.

Characters or objects that are capable of significantly affecting[1], creating and/or destroying an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Common fictional examples of spaces representing such sizes are space-time continuums (the entire past, present and future of 3-dimensional space) of a universal scale.

Therefore, denoted as infinite. The rest of your comment is just regurgitating info everyone already knows and not addressing anything.

 

[ImmortalDread]

This is wrong, considering the exact tiering system disagrees with you. Not sure how you missed this, in your tireless lust to become a moderator.

If it is wrong, the difference between a countable infinite low 2-C and a countable infinite 2-A is?

 

[ThanatosX]

Just to be clear, the requirement to be 5-D is to have a qualitative superiority over a 4-D Space-time, regardless of it being Low 2-C, 2-C, 2-B or 2-A. All of those Tiers are equally 4-D, and the number of 4-D spaces is irrelevant to be 5-D. The Tiering System clearly says this and even uses the Low 2-C Tier as an example for Low 1-C:

"Low 1-C: Low Complex Multiverse level
Characters or objects that can affect, create and/or destroy the entirety of spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model (Low 2-C structures, in plain English.) In terms of "dimensional" scale, this can be equated to 5 and 6-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 5 to R ^ 6)"

This is also why having a R>F difference to a 4-D space is always 5-D, regardless of the space being Low 2-C or higher.
In case the qualitative difference is caused by the size of the 5-D structure, than a clear cut statement that the 4-D space is infinitesimal compared to the 5-D space is required since that would be the only way for the higher dimensional space to have a provable additional dimensional axis compared to the 4-D space.
Unfortunately, everyone have a different interpretation of what is Tier 1 and what is not, which causes a lot of confusion in revision like this one.
Anyways, I am neutral for the CRT itself since I am not knowlogeable enough about the verse, but if it's provable that the Yggdrasil is infinite in size compared to the single Low 2-C structures than I guess it is fine.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

If it is wrong, the difference between a countable infinite low 2-C and a countable infinite 2-A is?

Nothing. That’s the point I’ve been making the entire time. 2-A is just an infinite amount of Low 2-Cs.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Nothing. That’s the point I’ve been making the entire time. 2-A is just an infinite amount of Low 2-Cs.

But low 2-C is also infinite, so basically there is no difference. Why do those tiers exist?????

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

But low 2-C is also infinite, so basically there is no difference. Why those tiers exists?????

That’s the entire point. Tier 2 is redundant. Why do you think this comment was made?

The sooner, Ultima and DTDT fix tier 2 and make it similar to Tier 1 the better.