Maou Gakuin no Futekigousha CRT: Addressing Venuzdonoa’s “Logic Manipulation”

[PrinceofPein]

If you want him to have logic manipulation, create the page and get it accepted, but as far as we do not have that, this is still Law manipulation and the many applications of it.

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Feel like it may just be better to bite the bullet now and make do and prep for later on

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

If you want him to have logic manipulation, create the page and get it accepted, but as far as we do not have that, this is still Law manipulation and the many applications of it.

I think you are talking about verse specific page?

Wiki Rules needs 5 character with similar abilities to create a page.
We only has his eyes and Venozdonor have that ability.

 

[Theglassman12]

Yeah not really convinced on the supporter's arguments, DT's comment just further proves it's just law hax and nothing unique, Agree with the OP.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Read his reply again. He said 'Law Manipulation, probably,' indicating, according to him, that Law Manipulation might fit the criteria because the wiki lacks the page. He never once implied or stated something to support your interpretation; he literally just suggested the closest form of the ability, that's all.

If what you're saying is true, DT would say,

"Hey, that's just law manipulation; don't wank it as logic."

"Why are you calling it logic manipulation? It's just law manipulation."

"It's just law manipulation, bruh, not logic manipulation. Just list it as law manipulation.

This basically amounts to “he didn’t say it this specific way therefore it HAS to be its own separate ability.” This kind of reasoning is very flawed because it basically amounts to attempting to read someone’s mind.

We literally have death manipulation > anything in the verse of ID for Yogiri
Similar to that case Logic > Anything in Maou Gakuin.
Order encompasses Laws, Fate and concepts. Logic is treated as something different that than even different than non existent, Acausality and TD in the verse.
Yes removing that will cause misunderstanding.

Yogiri means nothing to me. I don’t know this series, nor do I care for this whataboutism.

As for the rest, affecting these other things falls into separate abilities (Fate Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation, etc.) as has already been done on Venuzdonoa’s profile. But directly interacting with logic itself is a Law Manipulation ability. A more potent one than standard Law Manipulation, given that Logic > Laws, but certainly not a new ability.

For example, affecting something that involves both logic and fate would be both Law Manipulation and Fate Manipulation. Doing one thing can encompass multiple abilities.

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Why not just ask DT?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Why not just ask DT?

I mean you could but he’s currently on break from VSBW due to work-related stuff, so we wouldn’t get an answer for a month or so

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Just want to ask: if Logic Manipulation in Maou Gakuin is so specific, why not just make a page which lists all its usages, as every verse does?

Many verses here have abilities that are not listed in the wiki, or abilities originated from one but which have more than one hax application: Truth Manipulation from Umineko and Yogiri's death manipulation are some examples.

And yet in a vs match with these characters, if the enemy resists the applications of the ability, you do not hear the supporters say "But that ability is not exactly that, it is Truth Manipulation/Death Manipulation!".

All in all, I think that if Logic Manipulation is not an ability in the wiki but is worth enough for a page due to its applications (in-verse), a page of said applications should be made, and if a character resists the applications, they obviously resist the ability itself even if it is not listed (such as how we treat any verse which I'm familiar with). Or, in case it is not worth for having a page, just list all its applications under some text like "Logic Manipulation, whose applications are/which includes:" with the same argument: if a character resists said applications, then it resists the very ability.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

This is genuinely baffling as to how it came to exist in the first place. Reminds me of the 'Higher degree of Acausality type 4' shenanigans that got pulled before.

Heavily agree with OP

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

When you got characters who can pretty much neg acausals with type 4 yet someone manages to resist or destroy that what else would you call it-.

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

I mean you could but he’s currently on break from VSBW due to work-related stuff, so we wouldn’t get an answer for a month or so

of course... man, that just makes this more difficult

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

This basically amounts to “he didn’t say it this specific way therefore it HAS to be its own separate ability.” This kind of reasoning is very flawed because it basically amounts to attempting to read someone’s mind.

No one is attempting to read someone else's mind. DT's first response explicitly stated how logic manipulation works, and he never suggested to that person it's law manipulation, so logic and laws are not the same. He specifically explained how logic manipulation works instead of calling it law manipulation.

Yogiri means nothing to me. I don’t know this series, nor do I care for this whataboutism.

You are the same guy who said you don't need to know the series the understand the context.
Death manipulation can encompasses many things on its own so in fiction it's not different for other abilities

As for the rest, affecting these other things falls into separate abilities (Fate Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation, etc.) as has already been done on Venuzdonoa’s profile. But directly interacting with logic itself is a Law Manipulation ability. A more potent one than standard Law Manipulation, given that Logic > Laws, but certainly not a new ability.

So you are accepting Logic > Law in the verse?
Your main concern seems to be that you believe it's still law manipulation on a higher degree. It's still linked to the Law Manipulation page. What's the problem with specifically stating how it works? If we list absorption abilities under a specific character, we specify which type of absorption is used. Law Manipulation holds Mathematics Manipulation under that logic manipulation for our wiki standards, so it's still an ability which we can specify. Just like absorption ability, we list Power Absorption or Energy Absorption.

For example, affecting something that involves both logic and fate would be both Law Manipulation and Fate Manipulation. Doing one thing can encompass multiple abilities.

What would you call affecting both law and logic manipulation in the verse? Law Manipulation and Law manipulation? With all due respect, isn't that dumb?

Anyway I'm not interested in continuing this. If you still not convinced agree to disagree. I will let others handle this if they want. I have other verse I want to handle so can't really waste my time on this alone. Overall I disagree with thread.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

When you got characters who can pretty much neg acausals with type 4 yet someone manages to resist or destroy that what else would you call it-.

Acausality (Type 4; Explanation of the ability here)

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Acausality (Type 4; Explanation of the ability here)

I was referring to the stuff about higher levels of acausality type 4, but that's not really the point of this thread right now so i'll keep on the main point-.

 

[Theglassman12]

@EldemadeDityjon

You are the same guy who said you don't need to know the series the understand the context.

Yes, because it's not his job to research your own franchise to understand what's being argued on the pages. It's almost like the verse pages exist to explain how the verse functions to those who don't know the series in the first place. If you can't argue beyond "you don't know the verse" then you have no argument here because it's your responsibility to explain why logic manipulation is supposed to be very different from law hax in the verse, and so far I've seen nothing that proves such a thing.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Also doesn’t help that I have no reason to look at a completely separate, unrelated verse at the moment

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Like I said, better to probably bite the bullet and try to prove next time...

Though I feel like I'm a good somewhat on their thought process, I can at least take the fact the OP noted it's a pretty damn powerful manip of logic just under a different name-.

Edit: Already got a higher degree of law manip for venuz so may as well take what we have

 

[DaReaperMan]

@EldemadeDityjon

Yes, because it's not his job to research your own franchise to understand what's being argued on the pages. It's almost like the verse pages exist to explain how the verse functions to those who don't know the series in the first place. If you can't argue beyond "you don't know the verse" then you have no argument here because it's your responsibility to explain why logic manipulation is supposed to be very different from law hax in the verse, and so far I've seen nothing that proves such a thing.

Literally this.

Do I expect people to have basic understanding of the verse they're making a CRT on? Yes.

Should we sit there and expect anybody who dares make a CRT also have an encyclopedic knowledge of everything about the verse, but also other verses in whataboutisms? No.

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Well, guess I can be put at neutral but not like that matters now with the ASTRONOMICAL difference in votes, lol

 

[Godsatoshi23]

You can put me on disagree.

 

[Tatsumi504]

This is a false equivalence and a half and you know it. Already off to a bad start

It's not a false equivalence. Physics and mathematics easily fall under law manipulation the only difference being it's a more common ability i.e we have more users that manipulate physics, mathematics directly.

He didn’t say that. He just said “Law Manipulation, probably.” The whole “twisting” accusation is also one I could easily reverse onto you, but you don’t see me taking that approach, do you?

I'm not accusing you of anything I'm simply stating a fact though "twisting" does sound accusatory, I apologize for that.
Back on topic, you're taking his suggestion to support your point but it actually doesn't. DT simply made a suggestion on which power such an ability falls under, he didn't say concretely that the ability is law manipulation.

Whataboutism aside, the point is that you’ve indexed this as some completely unique ability that nothing else has or anything, when it very neatly falls into an existing ability that many characters have: Law Manipulation.

The use of examples does not constitute whataboutism for one. On the topic of false accusations, we didn't index this as a unique ability, it wouldn't link back to law manipulation otherwise. Same thing I said before, all powers also fall under reality warping so why don't we axe all pages, keep only reality warping and have the justification on profiles point to what application of reality warping it is? This is a genuine question since the problem here is according to our standards, manipulation of logic falls under law manipulation. On that same note, what is the difference between physics and mathematics manipulation compared to logic manipulation that qualifies tge former two to have their own pages when all fall under law? You previously gave the answer which is the number of users, another answer is the mechanics or effect of the ability such as physics, math users affecting only those things general or specific but not manipulating laws as a whole.

To put it into perspective, I’ll use another example of this I see more frequently: “Pain Tolerance” as an ability. This is made up. It’s literally just Stamina feats, so we shouldn’t be creating something out of the blue like this.

Now this is false equivalence. Pain tolerance isn't an ability not because it's just stamina but because it isn't an ability at all. This is nowhere near the same as manipulating logic to give any of the effects we index as powers and abilities.

Funny you say that considering that’s how we treated these for the longest time. Even then, this is a bad comparison, as these fall under verse-specific abilities. As such, they’re more like amalgamations of abilities on our site shared by a number of characters. Conversely, this “Logic Manipulation” is treated as some site-wide ability rather than a verse-specific thing like Chakra or Ki - one that no one else has at all.

It isn't funny actually. The difference between verse specific powers and logic manipulation is the former is an amalgamation and verse specific the latter isn't an amalgamation and neither is it verse specific.
You previously said you could count the number of users on one hand which means this isn't your first rodeo with powers that affect logic mean this power is something that can be found in other verses with similar effects/principles making it not verse specific.

I mean, just replace “law” with “logic” and I can ask you the same questions. And your answers would pretty much be my answers, except with “logic” replaced with “law.” These two terms are fundamentally similar in the sense of both describing fundamental truths of the world. MGK treating “logic” as superior to “law” would simply mean that affecting the former is a more potent Law Manipulation than affecting the latter.

You didn't answer my question. Do you know anyway to manipulate laws to do any of those things yes/no?
MGK doesn't treat logic as superior to law, MGK identifies both as separate things in its entirety, it just so happens that logic is superior however, the fact that both are different doesn't change. Manipulating laws in MG doesn't manipulate logic. One must be capable of affecting logic directly.

Physics and Mathematics Manipulation aren’t even relevant here, and you’re free to have that opinion anyway.

They're as both are something specific that fall under law manipulation just like logic manipulation. We're talking about different applications so there's nothing wrong in bringing up something that falls under the same topic.

Really, what concerns me most is how you’ve approached this thread. Your very first response comes with things like “twisting words” and “downplaying,” which frankly tells me all I need to know about how you’ve chosen to approach this.

Clover, you're not gonna Gaslight me into thinking I did something I didn't. I have a history of making use of poor choice words on this wiki, it isn't something new, get used to it. I'm sure using "gaslight" on my previous sentence is equally poor but at the moment I can't think of anything better. Also notice how I wrote "downplay/incorrectly index". I gave an alternative to what I tried to convey due to my habit but you chose to simply concentrate on "downplay".

It’s precisely this reason why I hesitated to post this thread…

Once again, I did nothing wrong, you're simply choosing to concentrate on the negative aspect of how I articulate my thoughts though you don't know about my habit so I don't fault you for it.

 

[Dereck03]

Put me on disagree. There are several things that are being overlooked here.

• Venuzdonoa reduces all logic to null, and there is no point in thinking what, how, or why​
  • I'm gonna be saying this repeatedly, aren't I...? This is just Law Manipulation. "Logic" gets reduced to null. Y'know, logic. A fundamental truth of the world. What exactly makes this so special?​
• Reason doesn't exist in the face of Venuzdonoa, dodging an attack doesn't mean you dodged it, and not being slashed by Venuzdonoa doesn't mean you weren't slashed by it​
  • Reason not existing in the face of Venezdunoa is pretty much in the same camp as the first point. Reason is a fundamental truth and concept of the world, so I'm not sure how this helps at all. Simply mentioning "logic" once doesn't help at all, given that logical truths are encompassed by Law Manipulation, leading us into...​
  • "Dodging an attack should mean you dodged it." This is a fundamental truth of the world, and as such, affecting this truth such that dodging an attack doesn't actually mean you dodged it is simply affecting a fundamental truth. Case in point, this is Law Manipulation. Nothing more.​
  • "Not being slashed means you weren't slashed." This is, again, a fundamental truth of the world. This is literally the same predicament as before, and as such is simply Law Manipulation.​

And well... That's about it as far as Venuzdonoa's justification on its profile goes. However, there's some more claims I've seen about Venuzdonoa's "Logic Manipulation" that apparently make it so special, which I'd like to cover as well.

• "Venuzdonoa can destroy logic (as mentioned before), and logic holds superiority over order since destroying logic also destroys order. Order is also equivalent to laws and providences, all of which Venuzdonoa can destroy"
  • The problem here is that this assumes this is something completely special rather than just being... a more potent form of Law Manipulation. The fact of the matter is that logic is a fundamental truth, and as such, can be affected by Law Manipulation. Even if the verse treats logic as superior to the likes of order and laws, that just means it's a more potent form of Law Manipulation because logic is still a fundamental truth.

There is more than a single mention of "logic", and there is even more mention of "Reason" which is what equates to logic. You treat "Logic" as if it were a concept equal to Law or something like a more powerful "Law Manip", first of all, at no point in the series is it ever equated or mentioned that Logic/Reason is a derivative of order or that they share similarities conceptually.

In the verse the only Law that exists are those that the gods with their order exercise, the derivatives of the ability would be minor abilities of the order or that are based on the magical power, either the magical eyes or abilities that dictate certain law. What is known as Higher Degree of Law Manip in verse is simply the Hierarchy of order i.e All gods by default have base resistance to the order of other gods but the more important the role of the god then the stronger their order will be, that is what we could call a higher power of Law & Cm or even Layers since as I mentioned, all gods possess resistance to order and are hierarchically ranked.

"Venuzdonoa can destroy logic that even encompasses laws and is thus above them, which indicates it's fundamentally different"

• My response to this is the same as what came before: this is not the case. This simply makes it a more potent form of Law Manipulation. In fact, Venuzdonoa's profile seems to acknowledge this, as overriding logic is simply listed on its profile as "higher degree of Law Manipulation." This is pretty much a self-admittance to the fact that affecting logic is, in fact, Law Manipulation to a higher degree. And that's all it is, really.

The ability proposed at that time was Resistance Negation, I accepted Higher degree of Law Manip because Deagon didn't want to keep arguing and the rest of the staff didn't give an evaluation so it was a temporary solution to get out of that CRT, besides I was only a Content Mod at that time and I didn't even have voting rights so my disagreement was never taken into account. After that i just forgot to fix it.

• • • It also doesn't help that the "Logic Manipulation" literally links to Law Manipulation when clicked on.

That was my only solution after asking DT what to do if we don't have the Logic Manipulation ability then the alternative was link Law Manip instead so that's not an argument.

Back to the main point, as I said, reason cannot be equated with law or order, since order is the origin of law itself, which has no relation with Reason/Logic.

On many occasions it has been shown that the characters (mainly Anos) talk specifically about destroying reason on too many occasions and do not classify it as something similar to order or law.

As we know the current novel is in Volume 5 so we don't have many more mentions of reason, the most important ones which I remember are in V8 (Anos vs Graham, Venuzdonoa destroying reason vs Befengunuzdoma disorting the reality, graham's nothingness which has no reason and order) V10 (Eques vs Anos' MEoCD destroying reason and order) and a bunch of other mentions that are made throughout the series.

Here a WN scan verified by 2 of our TL helper team with some mentions of it.

"Before my eyes, everything will perish. Order, reason, and you, Eques." (Anos)
"I'm saying I destroyed the reason of Fate turns for the sake of the world [Beld Rase Femblem]." (Anos)
"You who determined fate, and I who destroyed reason. The two powers were contradictory. Therefore I won." (Anos)
If there's a contradiction between the [Magic Eye of Chaotic Destruction] and the reason that must be destroyed, I will win unilaterally.
It's that simple.
Compared to the reason which makes a single event certainly happen, it's far more advantageous for the [Magic Eye of Chaotic Destruction] which makes this event never happen.

You will ask why is this scan relevant if Venuzdonoa is not directly mentioned? Venuzdonoa gained the ability to destroy reason because apart from the order of destruction that was already capable of destroying the other orders, this one was created based Anos' Chaotic Eyes that are capable of destroying reason, thanks to this it was converted into the Reason Destroying Sworld or as J-Novels calls it Abolisher of Reason.

To conclude.

• The series has given a clear indication that reason/logic is something separate from order, reason is neither a law nor a concept, the only thing that is a law is order and the only thing that is a concept is order and source.
• The same translation never mixes nor mentions that they are the same thing, reason is mentioned as reason and order as order, the only 2 things capable of destroying reason are Venuzdonoa and MEoCD. The law is created on the basis of order and reason not being order cannot be classified as the same thing.
• There are still more volumes to be translated where there are many more mentions of the logic itself, but we are working with what we can for the moment.
• Law Manipulation|Logic Manipulation]] is used as an alternative since DT said that the ability wouldn't be created due to the fact that there are very few users of it and that for the moment Law Manipulation is the ability that could be most similar but that does not demerit that the ability is not Logic Manipulation, just that we don't have enought users for it to be an official page.
• It is useless to remove this (the only reason would be that there are not many mentions of it at the moment, but I think it wouldn't do much harm to wait for the next volumes than to make a thread to add something obvious again) because I will add it back anyway, though whether I prefer to wait for more volumes to be translated is up to me.

Anyway, that was my 2 cents, I wrote this as a raw text without thinking much since it's 5 am here and I have work most of March so cya.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Disagree FRA

 

[Fixxed]

I just will follow what the author say
If he literally say A then it is A, if it B then it is B

Anytime and anywhere in VsB i hear
"Depends on context in the verse"
"Case by case"
"Depends on explanation that the verse have"

So, i think everything is depends on the author and the verse he write. Something that not follow it just a headcanon or wrong interpretation, that we should not take

 

[CloverDragon03]

I’ll get to addressing Dereck’s points by hopefully later today

 

[ROZAN-TIMSINA0]

yeah higher degree of disagree with op

 

[Embers_of_Twilight]

Gotta disagree with the thread based on the verse supporters' reasonings.

 

[deonment]

I mean (for our purposes) Laws=Axioms=Logic, mentions of reason are kinda funny cause logos which is the root word of logic means reason as in the literal "reason" of reality, why things are the way they are
All this just means is that laws, as the verse speaks of them, are more "potent" than the laws other verses would use, in a similar manner to type 2 concepts being more potent than type 3 concepts, and type 1 concepts being more potent than type 2 concepts
So I agree with the OP in that logic manip should just be listed as law manip, because that is just what it is, any specification beyond that can be explained in the profile with greater law manipulation or justifications or what have you

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Put me on disagree. There are several things that are being overlooked here.


There is more than a single mention of "logic", and there is even more mention of "Reason" which is what equates to logic. You treat "Logic" as if it were a concept equal to Law or something like a more powerful "Law Manip", first of all, at no point in the series is it ever equated or mentioned that Logic/Reason is a derivative of order or that they share similarities conceptually.

In the verse the only Law that exists are those that the gods with their order exercise, the derivatives of the ability would be minor abilities of the order or that are based on the magical power, either the magical eyes or abilities that dictate certain law. What is known as Higher Degree of Law Manip in verse is simply the Hierarchy of order i.e All gods by default have base resistance to the order of other gods but the more important the role of the god then the stronger their order will be, that is what we could call a higher power of Law & Cm or even Layers since as I mentioned, all gods possess resistance to order and are hierarchically ranked.

The ability proposed at that time was Resistance Negation, I accepted Higher degree of Law Manip because Deagon didn't want to keep arguing and the rest of the staff didn't give an evaluation so it was a temporary solution to get out of that CRT, besides I was only a Content Mod at that time and I didn't even have voting rights so my disagreement was never taken into account. After that i just forgot to fix it.

That was my only solution after asking DT what to do if we don't have the Logic Manipulation ability then the alternative was link Law Manip instead so that's not an argument.

Back to the main point, as I said, reason cannot be equated with law or order, since order is the origin of law itself, which has no relation with Reason/Logic.

On many occasions it has been shown that the characters (mainly Anos) talk specifically about destroying reason on too many occasions and do not classify it as something similar to order or law.

As we know the current novel is in Volume 5 so we don't have many more mentions of reason, the most important ones which I remember are in V8 (Anos vs Graham, Venuzdonoa destroying reason vs Befengunuzdoma disorting the reality, graham's nothingness which has no reason and order) V10 (Eques vs Anos' MEoCD destroying reason and order) and a bunch of other mentions that are made throughout the series.

Here a WN scan verified by 2 of our TL helper team with some mentions of it.

You will ask why is this scan relevant if Venuzdonoa is not directly mentioned? Venuzdonoa gained the ability to destroy reason because apart from the order of destruction that was already capable of destroying the other orders, this one was created based Anos' Chaotic Eyes that are capable of destroying reason, thanks to this it was converted into the Reason Destroying Sworld or as J-Novels calls it Abolisher of Reason.

To conclude.

• The series has given a clear indication that reason/logic is something separate from order, reason is neither a law nor a concept, the only thing that is a law is order and the only thing that is a concept is order and source.
• The same translation never mixes nor mentions that they are the same thing, reason is mentioned as reason and order as order, the only 2 things capable of destroying reason are Venuzdonoa and MEoCD. The law is created on the basis of order and reason not being order cannot be classified as the same thing.
• There are still more volumes to be translated where there are many more mentions of the logic itself, but we are working with what we can for the moment.
• Law Manipulation|Logic Manipulation]] is used as an alternative since DT said that the ability wouldn't be created due to the fact that there are very few users of it and that for the moment Law Manipulation is the ability that could be most similar but that does not demerit that the ability is not Logic Manipulation, just that we don't have enought users for it to be an official page.
• It is useless to remove this (the only reason would be that there are not many mentions of it at the moment, but I think it wouldn't do much harm to wait for the next volumes than to make a thread to add something obvious again) because I will add it back anyway, though whether I prefer to wait for more volumes to be translated is up to me.

Anyway, that was my 2 cents, I wrote this as a raw text without thinking much since it's 5 am here and I have work most of March so cya.

This makes sense to me.

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

this is most certainly a 'not being able to make a profile for something due to not reaching the qualifications on vs to do so despite it being different from what's proposed it to be said it is' moment-.

if there's that different of an emphasis for even the chaotic eyes (against the literal peak of the divine hierarchy for the militia world) its kind of like

 

[Georredannea15]

Mehh... Why did I get into this? I'm a stupid


Anyway, when i look at the OP and the contexts, it turns out that "logic" is actually something that encompasses laws and cause-and-effect relationships.

That is, a law follows a certain cause and effect relationship, and this is in the form of a kind of cycle. (For example, when a stone left in the air falls to the ground with the effect of gravity, this event occurs with a certain cause-effect chain)


And the logic encompasses this cycle in the verse. (laws and causalities)

When I look at the contexts and the OP, that's my interpretation, and the fact that DT calls it "law manipulation, probably", keeps me much closer to the OP.

So... Agree for now.

 

[Eseseso]

Looking at Venezudoa's page and how it describes logic manip, I see that it definitely could qualify for not just law hax but causality hax (though the page already says the sword has this) and type 1 concept hax (but the sword already has this as well).

I do not see enough to make logic manipulation be its own power that no other verse can counter since no other verse has it.

 

[Tatsumi504]

I do not see enough to make logic manipulation be its own power that no other verse can counter since no other verse has it.

So is this what the problem is? This thread was made just because no other verse can counter it. We couldn't make the page before because of "too few users" but now its changed to "no verse currently can counter it"?

 

[Eseseso]

So is this what the problem is? This thread was made just because no other verse can counter it. We couldn't make the page before because of "too few users" but now its changed to "no verse currently can counter it"?

I have no issue with a page for logic manip.

Heck, that would be enough for me at least to accept it as its own power.

But on its own with no explanation how it differs from standard P&A, I find it invalid.

 

[Planck69]

The power is functionally just rather potent Law Manipulation and Causality Manipulation maybe.

There's no real reason for it to exist separately beyond maybe as a versus match thing from what I can gather.

Also (speaking generally), can we not with the "but what about X Manipulation"? Most of the time, it's a whole other power. And if not, then you can make a thread and try to remove it too.

 

[Tatsumi504]

I have no issue with a page for logic manip.

Heck, that would be enough for me at least to accept it as its own power.

But on its own with no explanation how it differs from standard P&A, I find it invalid.

But there were explanations, the justifications provided anything one could ever need. I guess we'll just have to concentrate on making it a standard P&A number of users be damned

There's no real reason for it to exist separately beyond maybe as a versus match thing from what I can gather.

You say this when various pages that is basically the same with another exist. Fear Manipulation still exists because it's more common than general empathic manipulation, have more users that manipulate fear itself. Physics and mathematics manipulation are specific powers which according to this thread is covered by law manipulation so why exactly should they exist?

Y'all have failed to do one thing and that is prove logic is just law as a power. Power null via causality manipulation doesn't stop discredit the manipulation of causality. A power is indexed according to what it can do, effect it derives.
This power is manipulating logic directly not laws. Just as physics and maths is just one part of what we consider law, the same applies to logic. We don't give those who affect physics, maths directly law manipulation for this reason same applies to resistance (resisting physics and math manip ≠ resisting law manip, reverse also applies) yet y'all are going against procedure, trying to make the reverse apply in this case.

At this point I might just be done with this thread. Not only does it go against standard, it's trying to discredit an ability without actually discrediting what the ability is which boils down to "Yes this ability is X but I don't like that term, it can be encompassed by Y ability on a higher degree so it isn't actually X".

As it this thread possibly exists because no character resists this ability so reduce it to X ability the character resists. Funny thing is one of the arguments before this thread was that "Logic Manipulation is a subset of law manipulation hence is weaker and can be resisted by resistance to law manipulation" now it's "Logic manipulation is just some higher form of Law manipulation". This has got to be the height of pettiness for those who actually agreed solely for this reason and I feel sorry for clover who I believe didn't make this thread for that reason.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I will begin updating the tally, then I'll work on responding to Dereck's post (I'm not expecting an immediate response afterwards since he said he's working for most of March, but I would like to get out my thoughts on his counterarguments)

 

[Planck69]

But there were explanations, the justifications provided anything one could ever need. I guess we'll just have to concentrate on making it a standard P&A number of users be damned

You say this when various pages that is basically the same with another exist. Fear Manipulation still exists because it's more common than general empathic manipulation, have more users that manipulate fear itself. Physics and mathematics manipulation are specific powers which according to this thread is covered by law manipulation so why exactly should they exist?

Y'all have failed to do one thing and that is prove logic is just law as a power. Power null via causality manipulation doesn't stop discredit the manipulation of causality. A power is indexed according to what it can do, effect it derives.
This power is manipulating logic directly not laws. Just as physics and maths is just one part of what we consider law, the same applies to logic. We don't give those who affect physics, maths directly law manipulation for this reason same applies to resistance (resisting physics and math manip ≠ resisting law manip, reverse also applies) yet y'all are going against procedure, trying to make the reverse apply in this case.

At this point I might just be done with this thread. Not only does it go against standard, it's trying to discredit an ability without actually discrediting what the ability is which boils down to "Yes this ability is X but I don't like that term, it can be encompassed by Y ability on a higher degree so it isn't actually X".

As it this thread possibly exists because no character resists this ability so reduce it to X ability the character resists. Funny thing is one of the arguments before this thread was that "Logic Manipulation is a subset of law manipulation hence is weaker and can be resisted by resistance to law manipulation" now it's "Logic manipulation is just some higher form of Law manipulation". This has got to be the height of pettiness for those who actually agreed solely for this reason and I feel sorry for clover who I believe didn't make this thread for that reason.

I saw the justifications. They were good showcases of Law Manipulation. I dunno why the argument is even going on. I'm not saying the justifications don't exist. They're just being labelled as something beyond what they are.

Argue for the deletion of Fear Manipulation then. I'm not even particularly in agreement to its existing. Physics Manipulation is the manipulation of physics and how objects follow its laws and fairly specific usually. I'm ambivalent to Mathematical Manipulation, and so on. Once again, "but what about X" isn't really an argument.

We don't have to prove something listed as a direct application on the Law Manipulation page is Law Manipulation. That it trumps other instances of itself doesn't change that fact.

That no character resists it in the setting is just a testament to its potency, nothing more. Or should I give Kratos Hope Manipulation, given no one in the setting (including a higher order being) can resist it?

 

[deonment]

I mean (for our purposes) Laws=Axioms=Logic, mentions of reason are kinda funny cause logos which is the root word of logic means reason as in the literal "reason" of reality, why things are the way they are
All this just means is that laws, as the verse speaks of them, are more "potent" than the laws other verses would use, in a similar manner to type 2 concepts being more potent than type 3 concepts, and type 1 concepts being more potent than type 2 concepts
So I agree with the OP in that logic manip should just be listed as law manip, because that is just what it is, any specification beyond that can be explained in the profile with greater law manipulation or justifications or what have you

I'm just gonna bump this and say yet again, logic manip is just law manip, there is no difference between the two on a fundamental level, the only real difference one could argue is how they do things

 

[Tatsumi504]

That no character resists it in the setting is just a testament to its potency, nothing more. Or should I give Kratos Hope Manipulation, given no one in the setting (including a higher order being) can resist it?

Who was talking about in the setting? Eseseso grievance is no character on the wiki resists it.
If hope is a power that isn't an amalgamation of various others then go ahead