Maou Gakuin (F) 2-A Removal.

[Dog3352]

Futures are physical/exist?

In a nutshell, yes, as it is clearly said, futures exist, Nafta is not able to see a future that does not exist, and the future is built by order.

Spoiler

“I will answer that,” Naphta said. “The order of the Goddess of the Future receives its power from the future. The future can only be seen if it exists. It’s a complex order, but to put it simply, it’s easier to see the future the further away it is from the present. The future with the end of the Selection Trial is close to this current point in time. There isn’t enough of the future left past the end of the Selection Trial for my Eyes to see into the darkness.”

Her explanation was solemn. “What this means is that the end of the Selection Trial is the beginning of the end of this world. The world will vanish and the future will cease to exist, so it will be impossible for me to see the path there."

Spoiler

“Gods are order. The proxy will be no different from them,” I explained. “The countless futures that Naphta sees are formed from that order. No matter how much power you gain, a god of order cannot overthrow another god of order.”

Honestly, I have never understood and will never understand why the hell there is a question about whether the futures are physical (they have a physical form), the futures are built by the order of Nafta, they have a physical form of crystals, which are constantly being destroyed by Anos during the battle and they are attacking him, I don't see how exactly anything said here has refuted this, they DO have a physical form, that's not even arguable.

They are built in order:

Spoiler

“Gods are order. The proxy will be no different from them,” I explained. “The countless futures that Naphta sees are formed from that order. No matter how much power you gain, a god of order cannot overthrow another god of order.”

Futures having a physical form (crystals):

Spoiler

“I, Naphta, swear to you that as long as we remain in the present, the future will resurrect no matter how many times you destroy it. In order to destroy the Future World Crystal, you must destroy all possible futures.” The crystal fragments rapidly increased in number and wrapped around us like a glittering sandstorm. “This is one more possible shape of the world. Sinner, you will now be condemned to exile in a restricted world.

The crystals attacking Anos and all of them being destroyed:

Spoiler

Countless crystal spears flew at me once again, but the moment they touched the black particles hanging in the air, they crumbled into pieces. Fire, water, lightning, earth, trees, the dome—every conceivable element attacked me. It was like witnessing a miracle. But I wasn’t deterred by the world that bared its fangs.

“Using origin magic, I borrowed the power of Militia, Goddess of Creation, Abernyu, Goddess of Destruction, and the Demon King of Tyranny of two thousand years ago.” I also added the magic of my current self. “This is a forbidden spell that can’t be used in any old place. Even I’ve only used it twice.”

Jet-black particles swirled around like they were alive, enveloping the magic cannon. The reverberations shattered all the crystals in the area, reducing them to dust. Naphta’s divine domain had cracked and was beginning to break down.

Crystals clearly have a physical form

Nafta's ability

The ability is not a simple "precognition", the functionality of Nafta's ability is vitally important, which the OP chose to completely ignore.

Nafta's ability is not simply "seeing the future", there is a Nafta at every point in time (past, present and future), each of them sees the present with their divine eyes, and this present (is the present from their perspective ) that they see is one of the futures/crystals that the Naphtha that exists at a point in the past can see.

Basically: Imagine that A, B and C are the past, present and future respectively.
The Nafta at point A (past) is able to see point B (presente) as one of the futures because there is a Nafta at point B, with the Nafta at point B seeing things in its own moment/time using its divine eyes, that moment/time that Naphtha at point B sees is seen as the future for Naphtha at point A. Meanwhile, Naphtha at point B sees point C as one of the futures because there is Naphtha at point C using its divine eyes.

Note: If Nafta at point B has his divine eyes injured and is no longer able to see with it, Nafta at point A would not be able to see point B as the future, this is Nafta's weakness.

Spoiler

Naphta nodded firmly. “The Goddess of the Future’s order is to govern the future. My existence itself maintains the order of the future. Thus, my Divine Eyes have a blind spot as well. The present which I cannot see will not appear as a future to my past self.”

She spoke in a solemn voice.

“In other words, a future where I don’t exist is different from a future where I do. And such a future cannot be reflected in my Eyes.”

Naphta’s order was a factor that decided the future. If she disappeared, so would this dire future.

So there is no way the future could be just/mere possibilities, if that were the case, there wouldn't be a Nafta in several different futures to see those futures, and the Nafta of the past (past in relation to the Nafta of the future) wouldn't be able to see no future.
As Nafta herself says, a future where she does not exist cannot be seen (or a future where her divine eyes have been injured to the point where she is unable to use it), which supports both the fact that futures exist and the fact that futures are not mere possibilities, because if they were just/mere possibilities, there would not be a Nafta in the future.

Futures are immutable, fixed and defined

Another thing that the OP is missing is that when we talk about the future being immutable, fixed or defined, we are not talking about the future of the world itself (Militia World), but rather about the futures that Nafta sees with its order, all these futures are defined and fixed, only the future of the world itself is not defined and can change, this is said by Nafta.

Spoiler

“If the Goddess of the Future’s Divine Eyes lose sight of the future, that means the future is constantly changing,” Naphta explained. “All clearly defined, fixed futures have disappeared, making my order one worthy of a future of hope.”

About 2° point

The first, second and third scans of the 2nd point are simply an absurd distortion of language, "Real World" refers to the Militia World, it is not a "world that exists", this argument is simply a distortion of words, obviously the World of Nafta would not be considered the "Real World", as it is simply a World (microcosms of the world) created by order, and none of this really shows that the world does not exist.

Sanctuaries are not created (materialized in reality), when a God/Order is born, a sanctuary materializes together with the Order/God, and begins to exist physically within the Blue Sky of the Gods, what the Gods do is invoke them , because sanctuaries are a "physical materialization of order", they are "created by order".

Spoiler

"Hmm, why did a city come into existence when you were trying to bring Enne-chan into the world?" Eleonore asked with a puzzled expression.

"Just like the land of traces possessed by the Trace God or Naphta's Restricted world, the order of Ennesuone materialized and created this city." I explained.

Spoiler

Misha points at what’s in front of her.

Scattered like stars across the vivid azure sky are golden volcanoes, white lakes, thorny lands, cities shaped like wheels, and a variety of colorful landscapes.

"This is the Azure Sky of the Gods. All the visible landscapes are divine domains."

They were the same as Ennesuone's budding divine city and Naphta's Restricted world.

Indeed, each and every one of them is radiating tremendous magic power.

As expected of the divine realm, they are probably able to exert their full power here.

"materialization"

There is also a lot of use here of the word "materialize", although none of the scans talk about the materialization of anything, the only moments that have anything close to the meaning materialize are talking about "the future that is yet to happen" and "the world being created ", and there is also a addition of the the word "materialize" when talking about NAFTA futures.

I already talked about the world being created above.

Talking about "a future that has yet to happen", he is simply talking about the future that can happen in the Real World (Militia World), which in no way refutes the futures of the Nafta World.

And about the addition of the word "materialize" when talking about the futures, I don't even know where that came from, as there is no scan that says anything related to the Nafta World is "materialized".

Summary:

• Futures exist;
• Futures are immutable, fixed and defined;
• They have a physical form (crystals).
• Futures are not mere possibilities, because if futures were just possibilities, there would not be a Nafta in several different futures to see the future, and the Nafta that exist in the past (past in relation to the Nafta of the future) would not be able to see the future.
• Futures are built and happen for order;
• Sanctuaries are not created or materialized into reality, they are simply invoked. When a God/Order is born, his sanctuary comes into physical existence ("is born") at the same time as the God, and this sanctuary is there in the Blue Sky of the Gods.

 

[StorytellingDemonKing]

I think the opposition has presented better arguments so far, so I disagree with the downgrade FRA.

 

[ROZAN-U]

Disagree FRA
also this just seems to be wrong usage of "Possible" and "Possibility".
I only see possibilities used once for future world, yet in the OP , I see every mention of "Possible" written as "Possibility" , both can result in different thing specially in the context.

like future world is the countless future , no mention of "possible" yet.

“The Future World Crystal is the countless futures of this world; it is the shape of the world itself. What you are doing is competing to see who gets destroyed first between the world and yourself. The result should be clear as day.”

It is mention in this context , where if you want to destroy the crystal world you must destroy "all possible" future ,Possible as in all the "Alternate" way those countless future would be in. Possibility doesn't fit the context. It does fit the next context.

“I, Naphta, swear to you that as long as we remain in the present, the future will resurrect no matter how many times you destroy it. In order to destroy the Future World Crystal, you must destroy all possible futures.”

Now the next context and the only time possibilities is used in the context of future itself is this here.

Naphta, who was holding the Future World Crystal in her hands, had both eyes open. As the god that governed the order of the future, she couldn’t allow the world’s possibilities to be closed off. In order to restrict Egil Grone Angdroa, she had gazed at all the futures she could.
by which you would have
-countless future
-all the alternate ways those countless future could be happening = Possible future
-all the things that can happen in a particular Possible future - World's possibilities

My two cents for this thread

 

[Godsatoshi23]

Disagree FRA

 

[PrinceofPein]

I have only so far read Volume 6, but an interesting thing is what was in Volume 7. Anyway, I am done arguing anyone who thinks possibilities means reality, the texts are clear.
In fact there was a statement that said, "the future exist as a possibility and her power allows her to limit it" in the text, I just haven't gotten to that part yet.

“ I’m limiting it ,” the voice of the goddess of the future came from Gaddez and the possibility of drawing the sword completely disappeared.

Despite the fact that Nafta limits the future, she is not able to completely control my actions. After all, if I decide to go forward and actually take a step, it will cease to be the future, but will become the present and the past. And the powers of the goddess of the future do not extend to them.

However, the sword of the almighty, drawn by "Veneziara", is always a possibility. And if I do not keep the Leviangilma in its sheath and actually draw it, then its power will destroy my body in the past, present and future. And existing only as a possibility, it will always be weaker than the powers of the goddess of the future, no matter what power it possesses. She will simply continue to limit the future to the one in which I did not draw the sword.

This is a statement that explicitly says, the future exists as a possibility and she limits it, him drawing the blade exists as a possibility and she simply has the power to limit it.
This was stated in the work and the fact that no one has been able to tackle the core arguments in the OP (@Dog3352 you did not, I saw this scan which was why I did not bother replying to you anymore, naphta simply cannot see a future in which she does not exist that's all or her divine eyes has been destroyed, but if you feel like that is not satisfactory, when I have time i will reply you)
Anyway with this scan, I will like to believe that the argument that his futures are not possibilities is unfounded and simply makes no sense to ignore the numerous evidences that says otherwise.
The scan is from Volume 7 chapter 36, for anyone who wants to verify it.

see the

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[Dog3352]

I have only so far read Volume 6, but an interesting thing is what was in Volume 7. Anyway, I am done arguing anyone who thinks possibilities means reality, the texts are clear.
In fact there was a statement that said, "the future exist as a possibility and her power allows her to limit it" in the text, I just haven't gotten to that part yet.

This is a statement that explicitly says, the future exists as a possibility and she limits it, him drawing the blade exists as a possibility and she simply has the power to limit it.
This was stated in the work and the fact that no one has been able to tackle the core arguments in the OP (@Dog3352 you did not, I saw this scan which was why I did not bother replying to you anymore, naphta simply cannot see a future in which she does not exist that's all or her divine eyes has been destroyed, but if you feel like that is not satisfactory, when I have time i will reply you)
Anyway with this scan, I will like to believe that the argument that his futures are not possibilities is unfounded and simply makes no sense to ignore the numerous evidences that says otherwise.
The scan is from Volume 7 chapter 36, for anyone who wants to verify it.

The text you pinned is talking about the "Vaneziara" spell, not the skill, you say exactly the opposite of what is written.

Anos says that a mere possibility (Vaneziara) does not compare to the powers of the goddess of the future, in fact this is a clear statement of the difference from a mere possibility to the powers of Nafta (future).

“ I’m limiting it ,” the voice of the goddess of the future came from Gaddez and the possibility of drawing the sword completely disappeared.

Despite the fact that Nafta limits the future, she is not able to completely control my actions. After all, if I decide to go forward and actually take a step, it will cease to be the future, but will become the present and the past. And the powers of the goddess of the future do not extend to them.

However, the sword of the almighty, drawn by "Veneziara", is always a possibility. And if I do not keep the Leviangilma in its sheath and actually draw it, then its power will destroy my body in the past, present and future. And existing only as a possibility, it will always be weaker than the powers of the goddess of the future, no matter what power it possesses. She will simply continue to limit the future to the one in which I did not draw the sword.

And focusing on the word "possibility" doesn't really help, multiple futures of a universe being called "possibilities" is normal, since in this case, the words are interchangeable, it's no wonder it's called a "possible future", it won't counts the scale, and does not in any way refute the evidence that the future actually exists and has physical form.

 

[Godsatoshi23]

I have only so far read Volume 6, but an interesting thing is what was in Volume 7. Anyway, I am done arguing anyone who thinks possibilities means reality, the texts are clear.
In fact there was a statement that said, "the future exist as a possibility and her power allows her to limit it" in the text, I just haven't gotten to that part yet.

This is a statement that explicitly says, the future exists as a possibility and she limits it, him drawing the blade exists as a possibility and she simply has the power to limit it.
This was stated in the work and the fact that no one has been able to tackle the core arguments in the OP (@Dog3352 you did not, I saw this scan which was why I did not bother replying to you anymore, naphta simply cannot see a future in which she does not exist that's all or her divine eyes has been destroyed, but if you feel like that is not satisfactory, when I have time i will reply you)
Anyway with this scan, I will like to believe that the argument that his futures are not possibilities is unfounded and simply makes no sense to ignore the numerous evidences that says otherwise.
The scan is from Volume 7 chapter 36, for anyone who wants to verify it.

I guess this is what happens when someone lacks proper knowledge about the verse and tries to use the scans, which leads to several misinterpretations. Well, I won’t bother correcting it; I’ll let the staff handle it. Or Someone else (like tatsumi) will explain better later. Though, the previous thread alreday clarified everything.

Any point I would make will get negated either way.

Edit: @Dog3352 already clarified. This clearly shows OP didn't bother to check the previous thread OP where it clearly mentioned the difference between Vaneziara and Goddesses of future.

 

[PrinceofPein]

The text you pinned is talking about the "Vaneziara" spell, not the skill, you say exactly the opposite of what is written.

Anos says that a mere possibility (Vaneziara) does not compare to the powers of the goddess of the future, in fact this is a clear statement of the difference from a mere possibility to the powers of Nafta (future).

Please read the full text, Anos says since it is a possibility she will just limit it. He says him drawing the sword is a possibility and his spell that allows two things to happen no matter how contradictory will simply get limited by her.
I read it well, did you?
Just one of the many scans of it referring to her limiting possibilities. But this was an actual example of what it means.
The scan was clear, the spell is something that either draws the sword or it remain sheathed hence a possibility, she uses her power to limit it to the future it never gets drawn.

By continuing to limit the chance of drawing the Levingirma from its sheath, he deprives himself of the option to influence other aspects of the future.

 

[Dog3352]

Please read the full text, Anos says since it is a possibility she will just limit it. He says him drawing the sword is a possibility and his spell that allows two things to happen no matter how contradictory will simply get limited by her.
I read it well, did you?
Just one of the many scans of it referring to her limiting possibilities. But this was an actual example of what it means

Anos says that Vaneziara, cannot compare to the powers of Nafta, he literally says that "the sword of the almighty, drawn by 'Veneziara', is always a possibility" and "existing only as a possibility, it will always be weaker than the powers of the goddess of the future" (a mere possibility does not compare to the powers of Nafta), he literally makes clear the difference between Nafta's powers and a mere possibility, making it clear that both are different and that Nafta's powers are not mere possibilities

Nafta limits the future to a future where Anos just drew his sword, making it impossible for both possibilities to exist at the same time, furthermore, Anos made it clear that Nafta's order is superior to a mere possibility and that both are different things

 

[PrinceofPein]

Anos says that Vaneziara, cannot compare to the powers of Nafta, he literally says that "a mere possibility does not compare to the powers of Nafta", he literally makes clear the difference between Nafta's powers and a mere possibility, making it clear that both are different and that Nafta's powers are not mere possibilities

Because she has power over the possibility, this cannot be that hard

By continuing to limit the chance of drawing the Levingirma from its sheath, he deprives himself of the option to influence other aspects of the future.

There is meaning in the prophecies announced by the prophet. You wanted to convince me that using Livaingirma is useless, because even the goddess of the future cannot limit everything before me.

Although Diedrich tries to swing the Greatsword of the World Future with all his might, in a pure contest of strength there are not many opportunities to limit the future. The crushed greatsword crashed to the floor with a thud.

The spell was limited the moment I cast it, and the future was entirely occupied by the possibility that I would continue to hold the sword in its sheath. But this was the moment I had been waiting for. And while that moment continued to flow, I pulled the Levayingirma out of its sheath. But despite the shimmer of the silver blade of the almighty sword, I was not erased from existence by its power.

The tactic was simple preoccupy the future with the fact that the sword is in the sheath so as not to see his real intentions.
The point was this, something that exists as a possibility (spell, attack) are futures and naphta can limit them.

This is going in circle and I will stop replying now

 

[Dog3352]

Because she has power over the possibility, this cannot be that hard



The tactic was simple preoccupy the future with the fact that the sword is in the sheath so as not to see his real intentions.
The point was this, something that exists as a possibility (spell, attack) are futured and naphta can limit them.

This is going in circle and I will stop replying now

Venaziara makes it so that two possibilities exist at the same time, Nafta limits this to a future where only one of the two possibilities occurs, explain to me how this makes them both equal.

Vaneziara: It manifests two possibilities at the same time in the rrality, and they continue to exist only as possibilities.

Nafta Ability: Limits things and a future of your choosing.

Why on earth does this explanation/use of both abilities make them both the same?

 

[Godsatoshi23]

Because she has power over the possibility, this cannot be that hard



The tactic was simple preoccupy the future with the fact that the sword is in the sheath so as not to see his real intentions.
The point was this, something that exists as a possibility (spell, attack) are futures and naphta can limit them.

This is going in circle and I will stop replying now

Atleast try to understand how Veneziara works.

Probability Manifestation

“Veneziara is a spell that realizes possibilities."
“Realizes possibilities? What are you saying?"
“Don’t you understand? When Levyngilma is in its sheath, there is a possibility for it to be drawn and a possibility for it not to be drawn. Using Veneziara, I made both of those possibilities come to be at once.”

---

“Veneziara.”

My shifting body crossed positions. There was a brief moment of silence. Then, part of the God of Traces’ body started to slide. His divine body had been split into two. Leviangilma was still in its sheath, but its blade of possibilities had slashed apart the Heaven Splitter and enemy before me.

---

“Running now would only guarantee Jiorhaze’s destruction.” I held out my hand and Arcana handed me Leviangilma. “Veneziara.”

My body started moving in a wave, swaying to and fro. The body of possibilities leaped from the ground and flew towards the falling earthrain.

One flash later, Leviangilma cut through the falling boulders.

Of course, the result was what had occurred. In reality, I never moved from where I stood in Jiorhaze. The falling earthrain was reduced to dust that scattered in the air.

---

I activated Veneziara and approached him with the choice between my hand and my sword. He was still caught off-balance, so whichever option he chose to defend himself against would result in the other striking him.

“Heh.”

Ceris laughed, then cast a spell—the spell Veneziara. His body shifted between two possibilities, erasing the possibility of both my hand and my sword.

---

“Veneziara.”

Magic circle crossed with sword for the briefest moment, spell formula and sword stance shifting faintly. Ceris was required to read my next move from the constantly changing possibilities of the future. If his Eyes misread my strike, he would promptly be cut down.

Immediately after, a fatal strike was drawn out of the multiple possibilities of my blade.

Out of all the possibilities, Ceris chose to use the freely adjustable length of the Sword of a Thousand Bolts to aim for the moment when I drew Leviangilma. Gauddigemon sent bolts of purple lightning up Leviangilma’s sheath, repelling my Veneziara. Possibilities canceled out possibilities, erasing the chance of Leviangilma being unsheathed.

---

The spherical magic circle was sliced apart, and the Sword of a Thousand Bolts was split in two. Ceris’s smile didn’t falter, but his gaze became harsher.

“Huh... Was that the Veneziara you used earlier, perhaps?” he asked.

“Well spotted. I cast Veneziara on the Veneziara you deflected earlier.”

Ceris had used the possibilities of the Sword of a Thousand Bolts to repel me and seal Leviangilma. But to think of this another way, in contrast to the reality in which I was right beside him, there was a possibility that I had been repelled and moved a short distance away. That possibility normally would have disappeared, but I had used Veneziara on it to turn it into reality.

All the scans are from the previous thread.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Venaziara makes it so that two possibilities exist at the same time, Nafta limits this to a future where only one of the two possibilities occurs, explain to me how this makes them both equal.

Quote where I said it is equal. I said this further shows that naphta limits possibilites, which is essentially what you have said, not that that both abilities are equal, please if you will strawman my argument, I will prefer you do not reply to them

 

[Dog3352]

Quote where I said it is equal. I said this further shows that naphta limits possibilites, which is essentially what you have said, not that that both abilities are equal, please if you will strawman my argument, I will prefer you do not reply to them

Literally your entire OP is about the ability of Nafta and her crystals to be mere possibilities.

As I said earlier, multiple futures of a universe can be called possibilities, since in this specific case, both words are interchangeable, but, when Anos talks about Vaneziara (mere possibilitys), and compares them with the order of the future (future), he makes it clear that the two are essentially different, always mentioning Veneziara as a mere possibility and creating a "language barrier" between Vaneziara/mere possibilitys and the order of the future/future.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Literally your entire OP is about the ability of Nafta and her crystals to be mere possibilities.

Read it again, it is about the fact that the countless futures are possibilities and her power which allows are to see them and limit them

 

[Dog3352]

Read it again, it is about the fact that the countless futures are possibilities and her power which allows are to see them and limit them

Literally your entire OP is about the ability of Nafta and her crystals to be mere possibilities.

Right...

 

[PrinceofPein]

Right...

Her Crystals are real since they project the possibility she picks.
Possibilities = futures yet to occur.
Crystal = A restricted world creating a world out of the possibilities.

Honestly, please read the OP.

 

[Dog3352]

Her Crystals are real since they project the possibility she picks.
Possibilities = futures yet to occur.
Crystal = A restricted world creating a world out of the possibilities.

Honestly, please read the OP.

You literally said that crystals/futures are just possibilities several times, especially in the OP.
But it's not like I'm exactly saying that they're not possibilities (from a "universal" point of view), from a universe's point of view, "possibilities" and "futures" can be used interchangeably, so in a way they they are possibilities/futures/possible futures, but the point is that they are not just/mere possibilities.
An example is Anos himself making clear a difference between mere possibilities (Vaneziara) and the future (order of the future).

But that doesn't matter anyway, the point is that everyone's arguments have come to an end, and the only thing to do is wait for an evaluation from the CRT.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Futures até physical/exist?

In a nutshell, yes, as it is clearly said, futures exist, Nafta is not able to see a future that does not exist, and the future is built by order.

Spoiler

“I will answer that,” Naphta said. “The order of the Goddess of the Future receives its power from the future. The future can only be seen if it exists. It’s a complex order, but to put it simply, it’s easier to see the future the further away it is from the present. The future with the end of the Selection Trial is close to this current point in time. There isn’t enough of the future left past the end of the Selection Trial for my Eyes to see into the darkness.”

Her explanation was solemn. “What this means is that the end of the Selection Trial is the beginning of the end of this world. The world will vanish and the future will cease to exist, so it will be impossible for me to see the path there."

Spoiler

“Gods are order. The proxy will be no different from them,” I explained. “The countless futures that Naphta sees are formed from that order. No matter how much power you gain, a god of order cannot overthrow another god of order.”

Honestly, I have never understood and will never understand why the hell there is a question about whether the futures are physical (they have a physical form), the futures are built by the order of Nafta, they have a physical form of crystals, which are constantly being destroyed by Anos during the battle and they are attacking him, I don't see how exactly anything said here has refuted this, they DO have a physical form, that's not even arguable.

They are built in order:

Spoiler

“Gods are order. The proxy will be no different from them,” I explained. “The countless futures that Naphta sees are formed from that order. No matter how much power you gain, a god of order cannot overthrow another god of order.”

Futures having a physical form (crystals):

Spoiler

“I, Naphta, swear to you that as long as we remain in the present, the future will resurrect no matter how many times you destroy it. In order to destroy the Future World Crystal, you must destroy all possible futures.” The crystal fragments rapidly increased in number and wrapped around us like a glittering sandstorm. “This is one more possible shape of the world. Sinner, you will now be condemned to exile in a restricted world.

The crystals attacking Anos and all of them being destroyed:

Spoiler

Countless crystal spears flew at me once again, but the moment they touched the black particles hanging in the air, they crumbled into pieces. Fire, water, lightning, earth, trees, the dome—every conceivable element attacked me. It was like witnessing a miracle. But I wasn’t deterred by the world that bared its fangs.

“Using origin magic, I borrowed the power of Militia, Goddess of Creation, Abernyu, Goddess of Destruction, and the Demon King of Tyranny of two thousand years ago.” I also added the magic of my current self. “This is a forbidden spell that can’t be used in any old place. Even I’ve only used it twice.”

Jet-black particles swirled around like they were alive, enveloping the magic cannon. The reverberations shattered all the crystals in the area, reducing them to dust. Naphta’s divine domain had cracked and was beginning to break down.

Crystals clearly have a physical form

Nafta's ability

The ability is not a simple "precognition", the functionality of Nafta's ability is vitally important, which the OP chose to completely ignore.

Nafta's ability is not simply "seeing the future", there is a Nafta at every point in time (past, present and future), each of them sees the present with their divine eyes, and this present (is the present from their perspective ) that they see is one of the futures/crystals that the Naphtha that exists at a point in the past can see.

Basically: Imagine that A, B and C are the past, present and future respectively.
The Nafta at point A (past) is able to see point B (presente) as one of the futures because there is a Nafta at point B, with the Nafta at point B seeing things in its own moment/time using its divine eyes, that moment/time that Naphtha at point B sees is seen as the future for Naphtha at point A. Meanwhile, Naphtha at point B sees point C as one of the futures because there is Naphtha at point C using its divine eyes.

Note: If Nafta at point B has his divine eyes injured and is no longer able to see with it, Nafta at point A would not be able to see point B as the future, this is Nafta's weakness.

Spoiler

Naphta nodded firmly. “The Goddess of the Future’s order is to govern the future. My existence itself maintains the order of the future. Thus, my Divine Eyes have a blind spot as well. The present which I cannot see will not appear as a future to my past self.”

She spoke in a solemn voice.

“In other words, a future where I don’t exist is different from a future where I do. And such a future cannot be reflected in my Eyes.”

Naphta’s order was a factor that decided the future. If she disappeared, so would this dire future.

So there is no way the future could be just/mere possibilities, if that were the case, there wouldn't be a Nafta in several different futures to see those futures, and the Nafta of the past (past in relation to the Nafta of the future) wouldn't be able to see no future.
As Nafta herself says, a future where she does not exist cannot be seen (or a future where her divine eyes have been injured to the point where she is unable to use it), which supports both the fact that futures exist and the fact that futures are not mere possibilities, because if they were just/mere possibilities, there would not be a Nafta in the future.

Futures are immutable, fixed and defined

Another thing that the OP is missing is that when we talk about the future being immutable, fixed or defined, we are not talking about the future of the world itself (Militia World), but rather about the futures that Nafta sees with its order, all these futures are defined and fixed, only the future of the world itself is not defined and can change, this is said by Nafta.

Spoiler

“If the Goddess of the Future’s Divine Eyes lose sight of the future, that means the future is constantly changing,” Naphta explained. “All clearly defined, fixed futures have disappeared, making my order one worthy of a future of hope.”

About 2° point

The first, second and third scans of the 2nd point are simply an absurd distortion of language, "Real World" refers to the Militia World, it is not a "world that exists", this argument is simply a distortion of words, obviously the World of Nafta would not be considered the "Real World", as it is simply a World (microcosms of the world) created by order, and none of this really shows that the world does not exist.

Sanctuaries are not created (materialized in reality), when a God/Order is born, a sanctuary materializes together with the Order/God, and begins to exist physically within the Blue Sky of the Gods, what the Gods do is invoke them , because sanctuaries are a "physical materialization of order", they are "created by order".

Spoiler

"Hmm, why did a city come into existence when you were trying to bring Enne-chan into the world?" Eleonore asked with a puzzled expression.

"Just like the land of traces possessed by the Trace God or Naphta's Restricted world, the order of Ennesuone materialized and created this city." I explained.

Spoiler

Misha points at what’s in front of her.

Scattered like stars across the vivid azure sky are golden volcanoes, white lakes, thorny lands, cities shaped like wheels, and a variety of colorful landscapes.

"This is the Azure Sky of the Gods. All the visible landscapes are divine domains."

They were the same as Ennesuone's budding divine city and Naphta's Restricted world.

Indeed, each and every one of them is radiating tremendous magic power.

As expected of the divine realm, they are probably able to exert their full power here.

"materialization"

There is also a lot of use here of the word "materialize", although none of the scans talk about the materialization of anything, the only moments that have anything close to the meaning materialize are talking about "the future that is yet to happen" and "the world being created ", and there is also a addition of the the word "materialize" when talking about NAFTA futures.

I already talked about the world being created above.

Talking about "a future that has yet to happen", he is simply talking about the future that can happen in the Real World (Militia World), which in no way refutes the futures of the Nafta World.

And about the addition of the word "materialize" when talking about the futures, I don't even know where that came from, as there is no scan that says anything related to the Nafta World is "materialized".

Summary:

• Futures exist;
• Futures are immutable, fixed and defined;
• They have a physical form (crystals).
• Futures are not mere possibilities, because if futures were just possibilities, there would not be a Nafta in several different futures to see the future, and the Nafta that exist in the past (past in relation to the Nafta of the future) would not be able to see the future.
• Futures are built and happen for order;
• Sanctuaries are not created or materialized into reality, they are simply invoked. When a God/Order is born, his sanctuary comes into physical existence ("is born") at the same time as the God, and this sanctuary is there in the Blue Sky of the Gods.

I will only speak on the point whether the 2-A futures are possibilities or actualized (so any form of scaling to this I will remain neutral since I'm not familiar with how they scale to this at all); after reading the conversation, it seems pretty clear-cut to me that these futures do exist. Or at least, the ones Nafta visuallizes, because as it's stated, they exist as long as they are being watched.

That being said, the text does suggest some futures (the ones Nafta doesn't see) would be mere possibilities, so Pein is right on that.

 

[Godsatoshi23]

I will only speak on the point whether the 2-A futures are possibilities or actualized (so any form of scaling to this I will remain neutral since I'm not familiar with how they scale to this at all); after reading the conversation, it seems pretty clear-cut to me that these futures do exist. Or at least, the ones Nafta visuallizes, because as it's stated, they exist as long as they are being watched.

That being said, the text does suggest some futures (the ones Nafta doesn't see) would be mere possibilities, so Pein is right on that.

For detailed info about that is in the point 5 of the previous thread. For about Nafta's eyes.

Thread 'Maou Gakuin: 2-A Future World Downgrade Rebuttal'

Dec 28, 2024

INTRODUCTION​

This thread is will serve to counter this one this one which downgraded the Future World last year. The OP never really countered the main arguments provided against their reasoning and constantly stonewalled the main point what we were trying to pass across by generalizing the mechanics of an ability and appealing to general fiction. Coupled with the fact it was derailed to hell and back by unrelated points being brought up, the thread was passed and closed before one could even give a final response.

In light of a recent trend...

• Tatsumi504
• #maou gakuin no futekigousha 2-a divine domains future world maou gakuin tier 2-a
• Replies: 93
• Forum: Content Revision

• 

Edit: it's kinda complicated to explain, so I think it will be better if you read the whole OP of it.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

The Main problem I have about the OP is the fact that
Anos is still required to destroy all possibilities.
Whether they exist physically or not, the fact that they need to be destroyed shows that they have a semblance of existence, just not in a traditional physical setting.

As Timelines are mostly just flag-points from one point to another and unless we strictly follow a block universe (which we don't) we don't need the unnecessary scrutiny to prove whether the future physically exists like a block universe (like somehow time traveling to the future to show it exist and will not if the present spacetime ending scenario happens. Which is relatively dumb to do storywise as it can be done by simply saying they exist despite not showing proof that they already physically exist). we just need to know it can exist and be destroyed and despite not being physical is equivalent in terms of durability/difficulty to destroy to those of regular spacetimes
now the fact that Anos needed to destroy all possibilities to crack Nafta and not just one possible future the future can take shape on proves that they already exist and must be destroyed.

now this is a problem just because they are in an abstract or incorporeal form we don't grant it tier for destroying existing futures that are contained and need to be destroyed.

So if a verse somehow contextualized universes like they are palish or immaterial compared to the real reality like a dream or a spirit world suddenly they no longer qualify?

I find this kinda dishonest to verses if that is the case and as there are no proper policies regarding such. I'm free to argue that
no, I don't think that's logical or reasonable.

The story wouldn't specifically say he needs to destroy all possibilities if they do not exist in some form.
and it doesn't matter what form it is taking as long as it is something that can be tangible to some degree or existing enough and is equivalent or comparable in terms of how the necessity to destroy them is of the same requirement as a regular spacetime.

therefore I disagree with the OP

And you're gonna rebuttal that this is simply just probability hax and Fate hax. then you're purposely misunderstanding the point of the story. and refuse to entertain this tangent of discussion

 

[DemonKing021]

That being said, the text does suggest some futures (the ones Nafta doesn't see) would be mere possibilities, so Pein is right on that.

I can't argue much due to having a important exam one month later but Tatsumi's previous thread clarified it.

Naphta not being able to see certain futures was the weakness of Naphta from volume 6/7. So the futures she saw were described as countless.

Naphta (after her order being distorted by love) from volume 10 onwards however can see infinite branching possibilities.

Chase, the wiki translator personally checked the translation.

Correction.
I was playing Biohazard 4 and got distracted, but it says that endless possibilities spread through the love of Naphta

Her being able to see the future is irrelevant because future world crystal is literally the future itself. She can only restrict the future she sees but it doesn't affect the future world crystal in anyway. Current Naphta doesn't have the weakness of the former Naphta and she can actually see infinite branching possibilities.

I advise you to read Tatsumi's previous thread if you're curious, everything is explained beautifully with scans. Pein is simply misinterpreting the quotes in my opinion.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Naphta not being able to see certain futures was the weakness of Naphta from volume 6/7. So the futures she saw were described as countless.

Naphta (after her order being distorted by love) from volume 10 onwards however can see infinite branching possibilities.

I am not disagreeing with that, tho?

 

[DemonKing021]

I am not disagreeing with that, tho?

I apologise if i misinterpreted your post but you said this.

That being said, the text does suggest some futures (the ones Nafta doesn't see) would be mere possibilities, so Pein is right on that.

The futures Naphta doesn't see is no different than the ones she sees. Future World Crystal contains all of them.

The problem was Naphta (V6 and V7) couldn't see those futures because of her Divine Eyes having a blind spot. So she didn't knew the existence of these futures. So to her they will be possibilities.

V10 Naphta Specifically restricted a future which would have been impossible for her former self to see. So yeah she can now see the infinite branching possibilities and Future World Crystal contains them.

We as audience know things that characters from volume 6/7 don't. Pein is using those quotes without adding further context from future volumes. He even says he only read volume 6.

So I assume you disagree with the thread?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I apologise if i misinterpreted your post but you said this.

The futures Naphta doesn't see is no different than the ones she sees. Future World Crystal contains all of them.

Except the text brought by Dog3352 says otherwise. But ultimately it doesn't matter, we end up with 2-A anyways. Which is why I said:

I will only speak on the point whether the 2-A futures are possibilities or actualized (so any form of scaling to this I will remain neutral since I'm not familiar with how they scale to this at all); after reading the conversation, it seems pretty clear-cut to me that these futures do exist. Or at least, the ones Nafta visuallizes, because as it's stated, they exist as long as they are being watched.

The problem was Naphta (V6 and V7) couldn't see those futures because of her Divine Eyes having a blind spot. So she didn't knew the existence of these futures. So to her they will be possibilities.

V10 Naphta Specifically restricted a future which would have been impossible for her former self to see. So yeah she can now see the infinite branching possibilities and Future World Crystal contains them.

And as Nafta says, things they can't see can't be actualized by how these futures are (by being observed). There's no contradiction there. Nafta simply gained the ability to later on actualized them anyways with what you are saying.

So I assume you disagree with the thread?

Partially. We end up with 2-A futures regardless, as Nafta is indeed able to see "countless" (on which I'm trusting that the application of infinite is correct here) futures, which means they do exist. But the fact that until they gain the ability to see all of those they couldn't, there are some that are mere possibility remains.

 

[Orioreeem]

Since this has been rejected numerous times now, can we have a disscusion rule against it?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Since this has been rejected numerous times now, can we have a disscusion rule against it?

Can you show how frequently this topic comes up?

 

[Orioreeem]

Can you show how frequently this topic comes up?

I'll try to find all the threads

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

Partially. We end up with 2-A futures regardless, as Nafta is indeed able to see "countless" (on which I'm trusting that the application of infinite is correct here) futures, which means they do exist. But the fact that until they gain the ability to see all of those they couldn't, there are some that are mere possibility remains.

The futures do exist but not as realities or spacetimes but as pontentialities or outcome ,whether they exist or not is not the point ,evidence is needed to
prove that the possibilities are actual realities
The OP is not saying that the futures don't exist ,its saying they exist as merely pontentialities

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Can you show how frequently this topic comes up?

Atleast 4 threads atleast with numerous pages back and forth. IIRC. Pain is just obsessed with this topic in all 4 threads and don't see him stopping with his misinterpretations unless there is a discussion rule.

 

[Dog3352]

I don't remember how many topics there are about the World of Nafta, but my main problem with this topic coming back is that there are certain things that should NOT be argued, because they are too obvious.

An example of this is whether futures exist (physically), how many attempts have been made to argue that they do not exist (physically), despite them having the physical form of crystals (which in itself should be enough), being destroyed, having the need to be destroyed, to be built by order (which clearly exists), to attack and hit enemies, etc. There is VERY clear evidence that these futures exist and have a physical form, and attempts to argue against this are simply absurd.

 

[DemonKing021]

Can you show how frequently this topic comes up?

In my opinion a discussion rule will help a lot, especially in saving time for both parties.

Here are the threads in case you wanna check them out:
1st Upgrade (18 Page)
1st Downgrade (14 Page)
2nd Upgrade (3 Pages)
Now the current one trying to downgrade it again..

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Atleast 4 threads atleast with numerous pages back and forth. IIRC. Pain is just obsessed with this topic in all 4 threads and don't see him stopping with his misinterpretations unless there is a discussion rule.

The amount of threads isn't really what matters, but the frequency in which these threads come up. If those 4 threads were made back to back in a single month, then a rule may be warranted. But if they were made with a couple of months in-between? A rule is not needed.

I don't remember how many topics there are about the World of Nafta, but my main problem with this topic coming back is that there are certain things that should NOT be argued, because they are too obvious.

An example of this is whether futures exist (physically), how many attempts have been made to argue that they do not exist (physically), despite them having the physical form of crystals (which in itself should be enough), being destroyed, having the need to be destroyed, to be built by order (which clearly exists), to attack and hit enemies, etc. There is VERY clear evidence that these futures exist and have a physical form, and attempts to argue against this are simply absurd.

Difference of opinion, plain and simple. As the comment made by The_Golden_and_silver highlights, you could ask further evidence to show the proper existence of these timelines. I don't personally believe we need this so spelled-out, but it isn't incorrect to demand such evidence.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

In my opinion a discussion rule will help a lot, especially in saving time for both parties.

Here are the threads in case you wanna check them out:
1st Upgrade (18 Page)
1st Downgrade (14 Page)
2nd Upgrade (3 Pages)
Now the current one trying to downgrade it again..

Yeah, I definitely disagree a rule is warranted at this point. First two are so spread apart I wouldn't call this topic spammed.

 

[Dog3352]

Difference of opinion, plain and simple. As the comment made by The_Golden_and_silver highlights, you could ask further evidence to show the proper existence of these timelines. I don't personally believe we need this so spelled-out, but it isn't incorrect to demand such evidence.

I have no problem asking for evidence on certain things, like The_Golden_and_silver comment, but the problem is arguing against the OBVIOUS and asking for evidence that ALREADY EXISTS.

As I said in my comment, there are all these proofs that I mentioned about the (physical) existence of futures and even more, and we have already shown and talked about them, but they kept arguing about futures not having physical form and about it not existing even so, I even put up a video that shows crystals existing in physical form.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I have no problem asking for evidence on certain things, like The_Golden_and_silver comment, but the problem is arguing against the OBVIOUS and asking for evidence that ALREADY EXISTS.

Tbf, the evidence for the scaling may exists and it be obvious, but since I don't know about it, I would also ask for it if it weren't accepted already

 

[Tatsumi504]

Makes sense to me.

It only makes sense considering you didn't read the other thread and pain is leaving out the main arguments behind it.
For one we are given direct confirmation the futures exist. To see the future, those futures must exist.

“Gods are order. The proxy will be no different from them,” I explained. “The countless futures that Naphta sees are formed from that order. No matter how much power you gain, a god of order cannot overthrow another god of order.”

“There’s only one future that Naphta can’t see to the end,” he said quietly. “Not a blind spot, but a future of darkness—the end of the Selection Trial. Naphta’s Divine Eyes can’t see anything past the beginning of the end.”

“That means the Goddess of the Future, with her Divine Eyes, once saw past the end of the Selection Trial. Why can’t she see that future anymore?”

“I will answer that,” Naphta said. “The order of the Goddess of the Future receives its power from the future. The future can only be seen if it exists. It’s a complex order, but to put it simply, it’s easier to see the future the further away it is from the present. The future with the end of the Selection Trial is close to this current point in time. There isn’t enough of the future left past the end of the Selection Trial for my Eyes to see into the darkness.”

Her explanation was solemn. “What this means is that the end of the Selection Trial is the beginning of the end of this world. The world will vanish and the future will cease to exist, so it will be impossible for me to see the path there.”

Pain has also conveniently left out her clairvoyance as against standard precognition. She doesn't see the future, the present that she is currently looking is what her past self is seeing. Without looking at the present, her past self is unable to see the future hence she cannot see futures where she doesn't exit and where her eyes are destroyed. Destroying her eyes hid that entire timeline from earlier versions of herself.

Naphta nodded firmly. “The Goddess of the Future’s order is to govern the future. My existence itself maintains the order of the future. Thus, my Divine Eyes have a blind spot as well. The present which I cannot see will not appear as a future to my past self.”

She spoke in a solemn voice.

“In other words, a future where I don’t exist is different from a future where I do. And such a future cannot be reflected in my Eyes.”

Naphta’s order was a factor that decided the future. If she disappeared, so would this dire future.

~Light Novel Official English Translation. Vol 7 Chapter 31​

“Wasn’t Naphta’s blind spot the future where she didn’t exist...?” Diedrich asked.

“Look carefully into Naphta’s abyss with your Magic Eyes,” I said. “The present which Naphta cannot see, will not appear as the future to the Naphta of the past.”

I repeated what Naphta herself had said earlier.

“The future we’ve reached is one where a part of Naphta doesn’t exist—her Divine Eyes. In other words, this is the blind spot to the Naphta of the past.”

It was terribly simple logic: once the Divine Eyes were destroyed, the future containing their destruction would be hidden—even from the past. But since Diedrich and Naphta relied on the Divine Eyes to see the future and trusted that what they saw would be the future, they failed to ever consider such a notion.

~Light Novel Official English Translation. Vol 7 Chapter 36​

It is most likely because of this gimmick that Naphta can see type 2 & 4 Acausals. The point in time they exist in, being outside causality doesn't matter. As far as Naphta sees them in the present, it is transmitted to her past self. The one person who resists her precognition is through a special power that blinds her divine eyes as well.
Multiple presents being seen from the past is a clear indicator multiple worlds exists.

---

Future: time regarded as still to come. (a period of time following the moment of speaking or writing)
Possibility: a thing that may happen or be the case. (A likelihood)
Probability: the quality or state of being probable (Probable: likely to happen or be the case.)
Happen: take place; occur
Reality: the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.

Past: Time that has already taken place, events which have already happened
Present: Time which is currently taking place
Future: Time regarded as still to come.

Naphta uses "future", "possibility", "possible futures" interchangeably not for the reason that she materializes possibilities but for the reason that the future is something that is yet to come to pass and for that reason it remains a possible future (abstract) needless to say she never once used "probability".
3 time Gods exist, Eugo La Raviaz who is a Keeper whose job is to safeguard time and then there's Revalschnedd and Naphta the two main Gods of time. The former governs the past and the latter the future, their powers have to do with time and not possibility.

Terminology of "Possibilities" in Text
The text explicitly refers to "possibilities" rather than physical alternate worlds. This implies that these are potential outcomes, not existing entities.
And the phrase "Yet to pass" suggests these possibilities are abstract constructs waiting to be actualized

They are physical alternate worlds and not potential outcomes, "possible futures" and "yet to pass are in reference to the future generally being an abstract period of time that hasn't taken place.

This is seen where characters who can actually interact with possibilities are unable to touch Kandaquizorte for the reason that it is the future itself. To avoid confusion, Kandaquizorte has incorporeality for being the future itself, Anos attempts to grasp it with a special spell and it further uses it's powers to restrict the future to one where it's not held.

“Kandaquizorte is the future itself. There is no way for you to touch the future.”

“Oh?”

I drew a layered magic circle and passed my right hand through it. With my fingertips stained bluish-white with Ygg Neas, I gave it another try, but they still failed to grasp the crystal shaft. The order of Kandaquizorte meant there was no way to touch it, and its power to restrict futures allowed it to slip past my hand.

Overlord Veaflare struggled to reach for Leviangilma’s blade. She grabbed onto the invisible blade and tried to draw it, but blood merely flowed from her hand instead.

That's the first iteration of a difference between possibilities and the futures Naphta sees. In the second one, we get a full comparison between both powers

“I, Naphta, restrict the future.”

The Goddess of the Future’s voice came out of the Gaddez and erased the possibility of Leviangilma being drawn. But even though Naphta could restrict the future, she couldn’t control my every move. Once I decided to take a step and walk forward, that would no longer be the future, but the present and the past. Her power as the Goddess of the Future could no longer impact those actions.

However, using Veneziara on Leviangilma was nothing more than a possibility. The blade had to remain sheathed or its power would erase my past, present, and future self. No matter how powerful it was, a mere possibility couldn’t best the powers of the Goddess of the Future. She could just continue restricting the future to make it one where I didn’t draw the blade.

You can manifest/materialize a possibility of doing something as long as you wish but it's useless when Naphta just restricts time to the future where you didn't take that action.

Naphta's ability to "choose" or "restrict" futures also suggests these possibilities are simply one of the many possible futures rather than independent realities already playing out.

She doesn't choose she restricts the world to any future of her choosing.

"One more possible shape of the world" Again, these are all possibilities, and the crystal can actualize them and create a world made of crystals.

Still waiting on a single scan that shows materialization or actualization as this is currently claiming.

Mechanics of Actualization
The crystal serves as a medium through which Naphta can actualize a specific possibility. This process implies that the possibility doesn't exist in a physical sense until it is materialized in the real world.
If the possibilities were pre-existing worlds, there would be no need for a process of materialization. Hence the "make that happen" meaning something that does not exist and yet to occur.

Naphta doesn't actualize possibilities, she restricts the world in the direction of a future of her choosing in other words, to one out of countless branches. Not once is it ever said she materializes possibilities and continuous mention of this is nothing but falsehood.
Make it happen if said by Naphta would only mean it is yet to occur in reference to time and Naphta's powers can make it happen regardless of how others act. You keep using Anos assumption on what she did to try to prove a point. This is an assumption on Anos part about how the powers of a God he has never met nor analyzed works, an assumption which Naphta didn't say is true.

Nature of the Crystal Domain
The text describes the crystal world as "made entirely of crystals," emphasizing its artificial nature. This suggests that it is not an alternate universe but rather a simulated environment created by Naphta's power. Even people(humans) in it are made from crystals, meaning again, this is not the real world like the supporters claim since everything is made up of crystals.

This point again? The theme the author chose for Naphta's domain doesn't make it not real. People are not even found in the domains of Gods as it's made out of order and there's nothing there to sustain them. A world made of crystals is still a world "crystals" where just chosen as the gimmick for it. Revalschnedd's is a wasteland with bookshelves, Ennesuone's is a city with it's own theme, Anahem's is a white dessert, Wenzel's is an ocean with a gigantic tree situated in it, Dilfred's is a spiraling forest with shifting dimensions etc. Being made of crystals, so what? Crystals are still substance and is something real so like I said, this point is stupid. A God's domain cannot be the real world after all.

Also, it was directly stated, "A world created by......." If it was a world already playing out and existing as its own physical reality, it would not need to be created again, and it sure as hell will not be made of crystals. This further buttresses my point 1, which is that these worlds are possible futures that have not yet been materialized.

You're just choosing to ignore the thread to favor your headcanon. The domain of every God exists in the world of the Gods. Gods can drag you into it, manifest it around you or like Naphta's sublime world does, layer it over the mortal realm.

"Hmm, why did a city come into existence when you were trying to bring Enne-chan into the world?" Eleonore asked with a puzzled expression.

"Just like the land of traces possessed by the Trace God or Naphta's Restricted world, the order of Ennesuone materialized and created this city." I explained.

Who ever said Naphta's domain was one of the countless futures she sees in the first place? It sure as hell can be created from crystals too as the futures she sees are constructed from her order

The crystal was referred to as not real but rather restricted world and the real world was still called the "real world"

Universe/World in Maou Gakuin
Mortal Realm: Where mortals reside

• Outer space where mortals cannot survive, Celestial bodies (Stars, Planets)​
• Dimensions created via magic (Dimensions within Ennunien, Azesith dimension, the dark world etc.)​

Divine Realm: The World of the Gods

• The gate to the world of the Gods (Allows travel between both realms otherwise requiring one to distort/tear through space-time to do so)​
• Domains in between the the gate and the azure sky​
• The Azure Sky (A collection of at least a billion dimensions which contain the domains of the Gods)​
• Celestial Sphere of Creation, the domain of the Goddess of creation which is possibly outside the mortal realm and azure sky as one can view both realms simultaneously from there.​

Quit this flimsy distortion

“So when you open those Divine Eyes of yours, make sure you restrict things properly. Once I release this spell, Kandaquizorte’s world will be annihilated at best.” The Goddess of the Future faced me in stunned silence.“ If you don’t restrict things, the real world will perish alongside this one.”

This simply means Egil Grone Angdroa's destruction will spread beyond the Future World and consume the entire universe. (would send another scan of this happening if needed).
Best case scenario: Naphta manages to restrict the destruction to the futures she sees which will destroy the future world
Worst case scenario: She cannot restrict the destruction to those futures and the destruction will spread and consume the entire world of Militia. Newsflash, the best happened but in turn led to Naphta being destroyed, her body wasn't failing because of Anos destruction spell but rather that in all futures where she faces Anos she will be destroyed and as an orderly God her existence adhered to that.

Also, the phrase "holds the shape of the world" refers to possibilities rather than an existing, tangible world. As it is talking about the countless futures the world could have. The Kandaquizorte has the power to shape the world's future.

"Holds the shape of the world" was never said what was is "this is another shape of the world"

The fact that the Kandaquizorte’s world is made up of possibilities is further buttressed by this text

Naphta, who was holding the Future World Crystal in her hands, had both eyes open. As the god that governed the order of the future, she couldn't allow the world's possibilities to be closed off. In order to restrict Egil Grone Angdroa, she had gazed at all the futures she could.
"In other words, this match is over."
Naphta nodded quietly. Cracks ran across her body. "I, Naphta, declare defeat. No matter how much the future is restricted, zero cannot become one. There is no world in which you can be defeated."

Funny how this scan doesn't say this at all. It says Naphta cannot allow the worlds possibilities (futures) to be closed off. This is in reference to Anos previously noting how Naphta wasn't fighting seriously as her eyes were closed, closing her eyes lets her limit the amount of futures she sees if not stops her from seeing it all together. All of this, I covered in my thread.

The worlds possibilities being closed off is talking about the worlds destruction because "As long as the present is here, the future will continue to rise again even if destroyed". In order to not let EGA destroy the world, Naphta got serious and gazed into every future she could see and limited the destruction to them.

Before the flames of doom, the restricted world was reduced to jet-black ash. The ash was whisked away by a wind to reveal reality. Naphta and I were standing before the sacred door.

“Hmm. It seems you’ve finally gotten serious.”

Naphta, who was holding the Future World Crystal in her hands, had both eyes open. As the god that governed the order of the future, she couldn’t allow the world’s possibilities to be closed off. In order to restrict Egil Grone Angdroa, she had gazed at all the futures she could.

~Light Novel Official English Translation. Vol 6 Chapter 18​

Until you cast the die, rolling a 1 or 2 is not actualized until you cast the die, just a possible future, which is precisely what this is.
Nafta is the god of the order of the future, and the future is filled with numerous possibilities from where she can pick the future she wants. So is it possible for these futures to exist? Yes, they can become the next thing that happens. Are these futures already physically playing out in a different timeline? not at all.
These futures are not in her mind; there is an order that allows for numerous possible futures, and she gets to pick any she wants.
unless she picks one, none of the future are actualized

The crystal is a vessel for these possibilities, which are potential outcomes rather than pre-existing worlds. Naphta's domain, made entirely of crystals, is a constructed environment used materialize these possibilities. These factors collectively support the conclusion that the crystal contains abstract possibilities that can be made real by Naphta, not physical alternate realities.

All headcanon till you bring scans that remotely imply this.

All scans were gotten from Chapter 17 and 18 of Volume 6, anyone who is interested in reading it, I will gladly provide the entire chapters, they are about 6 pages

So just willingly ignore volume 7 where her powers were actually fleshed out in detail? Interesting but that is your style ig

 

[DemonKing021]

Yeah, I definitely disagree a rule is warranted at this point. First two are so spread apart I wouldn't call this topic spammed.

That's fine. I didn't know the discussion rule is warranted based on the frequency of the discussion.

Tbf, the evidence for the scaling may exists and it be obvious, but since I don't know about it, I would also ask for it if it weren't accepted already

I think users asking for evidence should ask them in Maou Gakuin discussion thread. It's easier for knowledgeable members to answer them.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I will wait for Pein to give further comments if they want, but seeing as 4 staff members disagree with the thread, I think thread is concluded at this point.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Since this has been rejected numerous times now, can we have a disscusion rule against it?

This is the first rejection, if i will say that. The other thread were thread trying to Upgrade it to 2-A not remove 2-A.

I will wait for Pein to give further comments if they want, but seeing as 4 staff members disagree with the thread, I think thread is concluded at this point.

I will like to give a remark in some hours just to address what is on ground that's all. Currently busy and on mobile. but in some hours when I am home, i will like to address you and tatsumi, that's all.