Maou Gakuin Downgrades are Back Again (For the Second Time)

[Vietthai96]

The only thing i could agree with this thread is about Info 2 since it is Power Modification, i could however understand on why peoples interpreting it as Info 2 hax though, still my opinion is i disagree on that. Is there more context regarding magic formula being akin to Info???

 

[Dog3352]

The only thing i could agree with this thread is about Info 2 since it is Power Modification, i could however understand on why peoples interpreting it as Info 2 hax though, still my opinion is i disagree on that. Is there more context regarding magic formula being akin to Info???

Probably the explanatiin in the IM page

2. Fundamental: These characters can manipulate information, which serves as fundamental building block of reality. This can allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims, often by programming it much like they would a virtual reality. These manipulation can come on many levels. For some it might just be the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities, while others can rewrite information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature.

 

[Vietthai96]

Probably the explanation on the IM page

Bro the bolded words

For some it might just be the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities

I'm gonna be honest here, quoted the Information Manipulation page not gonna do thing, because those exist as general guideline, we still need to evaluate feats, contexts, statements in-verse on why they meet requirement/standard, not arguing sematically, word-by-word using power & abilities page

 

[Tatsumi504]

Okay, but that isn't fear manipulation just because they instinctually fear great magic power, and the reason it didn't affect Anos wasn't because he has "resistance to fear manipulation" it is because he is far stronger than her. So why would Anos have "resistance to fear manipulation?"

Not that they instinctually fear great magic, the magic power is what is causing the fear just by existing.

Anos wasn't affected because his resistance to magic is higher than theirs. Their magic resistance is so low that in Anos case they wouldn't just feel fear, they will die. It's not about how much power both of you have, it's about how high your magic resistance is.
It's why Anos gets surprised at Misha and Sasha being able to look into his abyss. They're also not affected even when in the face of a god- beings with nigh infinite magic power compared to Ivis.

TL;DR If your magic resistance is high you won't get affected. If your magic resistance is low even if you possess the same amount of power you're getting haxed.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Simply because a physical attack fails against a barrier while a magically infused one doesn't, doesn't mean that barrier will inherently ignore all physical damage regardless of strength. That is the textbook definition of an NLF.

Anos is a 6-C to High 6-B physically, his opponent is Low 7-C probably High 7-C. Anos with a plain sword no matter the amount of force cannot break said barrier. If his sword clashes with one with magic it breaks. It's made plainly clear that without magic nothing can break it which is why he said his chance of victory is effectively sealed

Except that's ignoring how Agronemt works. As per Anos' own words, it specifically returns his source to the state it was in before being attacked. Which means, after casting Agronemt, his source is reverted to a state wherein it was never harmed by Evansmana, and therefore never had its regen "negated". Literally the entire basis of the spell is reversing something that happened, so claiming otherwise seems extremely odd.

Explain how his source is still affected despite being rewound then causes it's clearly stated that despite resurrecting, Evansmana is negating his source abilities cause it pierced him.

For the first link, I would say the fact that it explicit details that his magic is infused into his words, resulting in compulsion, that this is legit. It's not really fear related though. More like mind control.

In the second link, he calls it an intimidation "tactic" not like a manip spell that he cast. So I am not seeing a great reason to consider him as having "fear manipulation"

It seems you're not noticing how all the fear tactics work because the opponents don't have sufficient magic resistance

 

[Tatsumi504]

Before dropping my opinion on if sources are universal concepts or not, and more specifically Type 1 Concepts.

I'd like to ask a question in regards to this statement from @Tatsumi504



Does this create a pseudo duplicate of this person, and if so, are both bounded by the same source/concept?, like if you were to destroy the original person's source, causing them to die, or lose this "individual-ness". Would it cause that duplicate to die as well?, or are these entirely separate entities, with separate sources, meaning the death of the original wouldn't do anything to the duplicate?.

They Will still have the same source. It's why Sasha can break a magic contract with Misha without consequences because it's a contract made with her self.
Using "Original person" in this sense is contradictory as both are the same. It's not original and duplicate, it's Original and Original. If you were to destroy one the other won't be affected until the time limit of the spell that split them apart is reached. So once the time limit elapses, yes the other half will inevitably die.

Edit: Scans if needed
You'd find a rather interesting case with Kaihilam and Jiste. Two separate personalities, memories, sources but still have only one source.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

They Will still have the same source. It's why Sasha can break a magic contract with Misha without consequences because it's a contract made with her self.
Using "Original person" in this sense is contradictory as both are the same. It's not original and duplicate, it's Original and Original. If you were to destroy one the other won't be affected until the time limit of the spell that split them apart is reached. So once the time limit elapses, yes the other half will inevitably die.

Edit: Scans if needed
You'd find a rather interesting case with Kaihilam and Jiste. Two separate personalities, memories, sources but still have only one source.

For the last time do it in a different CRT changes has been already applied. Do you still not remember what UMR said ?

 

[Deagonx]

@Theglassman12 @Dereck03

We have enough voting power between us to settle the matter and I think we should try to prevent this from dragging on.

It seems like we all agree on most things. I am neutral leaning towards agreeing with Type 2 Info, but not unbendable. I think Venuzdonoa's ability isn't best described as resistance negation given that it was more messing with the logic that prevent Evansmana from hurting Jerga.

Dereck how strongly do you feel about the above matters and are we able to all come to an agreement about the rest and get the changes made? I don't know much about how concepts are classified so I haven't said anything in that regard

 

[Reiner04]

I don't know much about how concepts are classified so I haven't said anything in that regard

I'll cover up the concept stuff in another crt in the future as it should be better after it got settled in RvR. The Important arguement for it is that everyone in maou has source, including gods who are Type 1 concepts themselves, etc.

 

[Deagonx]

@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara

Are you okay with shelving the concept discussion for another thread? So we can get the rest of your proposals handled?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara

Are you okay with shelving the concept discussion for another thread? So we can get the rest of your proposals handled?

I mean Changes has been already applied to profile based on Bambu and DDM request in RVR. It shouldn't have even brought up here.

 

[Reiner04]

@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara

Are you okay with shelving the concept discussion for another thread? So we can get the rest of your proposals handled?

Basically in the previous crt of her, all the discussion was ended to that source being CM type 1 wasn't addressed in any CRT and got added even tho it was downgraded to Type 3. So basically downgrading it is of no point when it shouldn't be existing in the profile rn in the first place.

 

[Deagonx]

I mean Changes has been already applied to profile based on Bambu and DDM request in RVR. It shouldn't have even brought up here.

Oh that's good then. So we can focus on the rest.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara

Are you okay with shelving the concept discussion for another thread? So we can get the rest of your proposals handled?

I'm okay with that, yeah.

 

[Tatsumi504]

For the last time do it in a different CRT changes has been already applied. Do you still not remember what UMR said ?

I'm just giving the evidence he wanted. Not doing anything here

 

[StrymULTRA]

Btw @Mr._Bambu did agree with what I said about Mid Godly, just that he doesn't want to go in this CRT as he dislikes the verse.

So @Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara you can add an agreement.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yeah I don't really add staff opinions unless they come in the thread itself to comment. Nothing stopping him from dropping in to say "I agree" and then unfollowing.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Well, it just confirms what I said about Mid Godly to be true though.

Regardless, if Mid Godly level stays, better if they add scans for the mind too in justification.

 

[ImmortalDread]

This guy-

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yeo, my job here is to prevent MG getting what other verses don't.

Regardless, if Mid Godly level stays, better if they add scans for the mind too in justification.

And I'm getting generous from giving this tip.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Ya I aint arguing further.

@Deagonx Please do something with this

 

[StrymULTRA]

I only made only a suggestion lol.

If the source includes mind, include that in scans as well, easy as that

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Dude is persistent

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

This guy-

Just report him in the RVR. even after we posted the scan and Tatsumi, deagonx and dereck explained it he is just showing his bias for no reason. This shit should be report worthy.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Just report him in the RVR. even after we posted the scan and Tatsumi, deagonx and dereck explained it he is just showing his bias for no reason. This shit should be report worthy.

If the source includes mind, include that in scans as well, easy as that

...

 

[Reiner04]

Oh well, guys chill it out, no need for RvR. Anyway, just give strym what he is asking for, not that it will change anything but if it's there then just give him, he may just want bit clearance in this regards from his perspective.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Oh well, guys chill it out, no need for RvR. Anyway, just give strym what he is asking for, not that it will change anything but if it's there then just give him, he may just want bit clearance in this regards from his perspective.

His ignorance is something else

...

Already posted the scans several times you kept on ignoring. Atleast Pay attention next time.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/maou-gakuin-downgrades-are-back-again-for-the-second-time.152860/post-5692908

 

[StrymULTRA]

His ignorance is something else

Already posted the scans several times you kept on ignoring. Atleast Pay attention next time.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/maou-gakuin-downgrades-are-back-again-for-the-second-time.152860/post-5692908

Sorry man, couldn't skim through all of that and just wanted to be sure.

Now it's fine.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Anyways, here's the vote tally for what stays and what goes:

Mid-Godly Regeneration goes and is replaced with resurrection, Limited Invulnerability goes, Resistance Negation goes, Immortality Negation goes, and Resistance to Fear Manipulation, Attack Reflection, and Immortality/Regeneration Negation all go.

Fear Manipulation stays.

I'm unsure if Information Manipulation should go, since Deagon agrees but is also neutral on its removal.

Type 1 CM has already been replaced with type 3 and a new thread will be made to upgrade it appropriately.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Anyways, here's the vote tally for what stays and what goes:

Mid-Godly Regeneration goes and is replaced with resurrection, Limited Invulnerability goes, Resistance Negation goes, Immortality Negation goes, and Resistance to Fear Manipulation, Attack Reflection, and Immortality/Regeneration Negation all go.

Fear Manipulation stays.

I'm unsure if Information Manipulation should go, since Deagon agrees but is also neutral on its removal.

Type 1 CM has already been replaced with type 3 and a new thread will be made to upgrade it appropriately.

Mid godly is still in discussion.

 

[Vietthai96]

tbf, from Mid-Godly, resurrection and regeneration isn't that much different, the argument to remove "regeneration" is pretty much sematically because the verse wrote resurrect instead of regenerate. So i disagree with removing Mid-Godly regen, it can be both regen and resurrect, since characters practically reform themselves

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

tbf, from Mid-Godly, resurrection and regeneration isn't that much different, the argument to remove "regeneration" is pretty much sematically because the verse wrote resurrect instead of regenerate

It used both actually

 

[Reiner04]

Mid godly is still in discussion.

Isn't Mid Godly resurrection is indeed better than regenration?

 

[Reiner04]

It used both actually

Oh yeah that as well. It's both.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Both are really instant, I don't get the difference in all honestly. Either way, the scan explicitly implied regeneration.

 

[Reiner04]

Both are really instant, I don't get the difference in all honestly. Either way, the scan explicitly implied regeneration.

You can just have both written actually. Mid Godly regenration and mid Godly resurrection, unless source is incapable of any from either (like anti feat?)

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

You can just have both written actually. Mid Godly regenration and mid Godly resurrection, unless source is incapable of any from either (like anti feat?)

No anti feats so far. Both seems fine

 

[ImmortalDread]

If it is written both, I don't mind.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

There is a slight mechanical difference, where resurrection is activated (in this case, using Ingall), while regeneration is passive. So if you can do something to prevent someone from using magic, it'd effectively negate their ability to resurrect, while the same wouldn't be true if it were regen.

 

[Vietthai96]

even without the word "regenerate" the feats and contexts blatantly show character reform themselves, that is Regeneration, and Regeneration from Mid-Godly onward isn't that different from resurrection, you could well interpreting Mid-Godly regeneration as Resurrection from different perspective. Resurrection have broad meaning