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Maou Gakuin Downgrades are Back Again (For the Second Time)

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That isn't really saying gods don't have emotions, just that said emotions are useless because gods are only meant to fulfill order. The text also seems to attribute gods not having fear to them not being alive, which seems more like they have no fear of death (since they can't die) rather than being absent of fear entirely.
 
Deceived3596 said:
Before dropping my opinion on if sources are universal concepts or not, and more specifically Type 1 Concepts.

I'd like to ask a question in regards to this statement from @Tatsumi504



Does this create a pseudo duplicate of this person, and if so, are both bounded by the same source/concept?, like if you were to destroy the original person's source, causing them to die, or lose this "individual-ness". Would it cause that duplicate to die as well?, or are these entirely separate entities, with separate sources, meaning the death of the original wouldn't do anything to the duplicate?.
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@Dereck03 Could you possibly answer this question, since it's very pertinent for my analysis of this verse's CM rating.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
That isn't really saying gods don't have emotions,
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"So, does that mean we have no emotions?"

"Immortals beings like us don't need them
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
just that said emotions are useless because gods are only meant to fulfill order
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They are useless for them, therefore they have no emotions.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
The text also seems to attribute gods not having fear to them not being alive, which seems more like they have no fear of death (since they can't die) rather than being absent of fear entirely.
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Don't twist the text, they make it clear that they lack any kind of emotion whether it be fear, pride, sadness, kindness, etc. Then they make it clear that they are not even alive and they are immortal, don't put together the lack of all that emotion and attribute to them that they are only absent of fear of death, because clearly they said any kind of emotions aren't necessary for them, it is clearly shown in the scan of Anos making Nosgalia feel fear despite not having any emotions.
 
Dereck03 said:
"So, does that mean we have no emotions?"

"Immortals beings like us don't them
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What the **** does "don't them" mean? That feels like it's a typo, so can you ask for a correction?

Dereck03 said:
They are useless for then, therefore they have no emotions.
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Not how that works. Just because something is useless to you doesn't mean you can't have it.

Dereck03 said:
Don't twist the text, they make it clear that they lack any kind of emotion whether it be fear, pride, sadness, kindness, etc. Then they make it clear that they are not even alive and they are immortal, don't put together the lack of all that emotion and attribute to them that they are only absent of fear of death, because clearly they said any kind of emotions aren't necessary for them, it is clearly shown in the scan of Anos making Nosgalia feel fear despite not having any emotions.
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"I give you wisdom to you whose are not enlightened yet. We are nothing. We have no anger, no sorrow. God is immortal and therefore we are not even alive. Therefore, we have no fear, but only continue to be the reason of this world." This is clearly saying that gods not being alive is the cause of them not having fear.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
What the **** does "don't them" mean? That feels like it's a typo, so can you ask for a correction?
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Fixed.

"Immortals beings like us doesn't need them, they are only given to mortals in order to survive"
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Not how that works. Just because something is useless to you doesn't mean you can't have it.
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They clearly state that they do not have it.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
"I give you wisdom to you whose are not enlightened yet. We are nothing. We have no anger, no sorrow. God is immortal and therefore we are not even alive. Therefore, we have no fear, but only continue to be the reason of this world." This is clearly saying that gods not being alive is the cause of them not having fear.
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They are immortal and are not alive therefore they do not have the emotions that a mortal has, they were simply discarded and you ignore all the previous context where it is emphasized that they simply do not have emotions?

As they say, a being without emotions cannot feel anything. Whether he is immortal or not, even more proof is that Nosgalia never felt fear of Anos when he could destroy his source (and when he did) and thus destroy the world, he never felt fear of venuzdonoa that Nosgalia said could kill him permanently, because they had no emotions and only when Anos decided to instill fear then was where this feat was demonstrated.

Anyway not debating this anymore and i'll wait for @Deagonx's evaluation.
 
Dereck03 said:
@Deagonx How would we categorize a feat of anos making someone who has immunity to fear manipulation feel fear.
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Based on the context it’s just them lacking fear
So it is worth nothing other then fear manipulation (that works on being without fear naturally)
I can list examples of similar stuff and it doesn’t really change anything in terms of the potency of it
 
Deceived3596 said:
@Dereck03 Could you possibly answer this question, since it's very pertinent for my analysis of this verse's CM rating.
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Kek... You leave me a little screwed, as far as I remember Misha was only part of Sasha that would disappear after 15 years, practically the 2 were the same individual born from a single source. So if you were to destroy Sasha's source, Misha would die. It is worth noting that despite sharing the same source, the two individuals were completely different. Having different characteristics, emotions, feelings, etc.

This is only what I remember, @Tatsumi504 could clarify better or correct me if i'm wrong in something.
 
Dereck03 said:
Fixed.

"Immortals beings like us doesn't need them, they are only given to mortals in order to survive"

They clearly state that they do not have it.
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Right, so gods don't need emotions. Which is what I've been saying the entire time, and is different than them just not having it.

Dereck03 said:
They are immortal and are not alive therefore they do not have the emotions that a mortal has, they were simply discarded and you ignore all the previous context where it is emphasized that they simply do not have emotions?
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Why would being immortal completely strip you of fear and emotions?

Dereck03 said:
Kek... You leave me a little screwed, as far as I remember Misha was only part of Sasha that would disappear after 15 years, practically the 2 were the same individual born from a single source. So if you were to destroy Sasha's source, Misha would die. It is worth noting that despite sharing the same source, the two individuals were completely different. Having different characteristics, emotions, feelings, etc.

This is only what I remember, @Tatsumi504 could clarify better or correct me if i'm wrong in something.
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Do you have scans of this?
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Right, so gods don't need emotions. Which is what I've been saying the entire time, and is different than them just not having it.
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Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Why would being immortal completely strip you of fear and emotions?
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They do not need them and they clearly say that emotions are something useless for them (and it does not refer only to fear but to all kind of emotions) and emotions are something that are given to mortals not to gods.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Do you have scans of this?
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The anime itself explains it, but in a limited way in chapter 4 iirc.... And I'm not the best person to ask for scans since I only read novels in Spanish and not in English. Tatsumi should be able to give scans.
 
I bet you didn't even read the counterargument made by Deagonx on Info 2 in which we agreed and neither the one about Resistance Negation which seems to be no problem to keep it. And besides if you agree, in the case of Mid-Godly, what do you agree with? Keep it as regeneration or turn it into immortality and resurrection?
 
As much as I also want Glass to elaborate on that, let's not turn this into a thread where MG supporters harass him for 5 pages, mmkay?
 
Dereck03 said:
They do not need them and they clearly say that emotions are something useless for them (and it does not refer only to fear but to all kind of emotions) and emotions are something that are given to mortals not to gods.
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Something being useless to you doesn't mean you don't have it.

Dereck03 said:
The anime itself explains it, but in a limited way in chapter 4 iirc.... And I'm not the best person to ask for scans since I only read novels in Spanish and not in English. Tatsumi should be able to give scans.
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Well, let's wait for the scans then.
 
Let it be clear that this is the first time I ask glass to elaborate correctly, I am not tatsumi or elde.

Another one I would like you to elaborate on would be planck on the MGR issue, and the new Info 2 and Resistance negation arguments but even though they are called out they never come back to clarify.
 
@Dereck03 You mean the part that hardly sounds much different than type 1 information manipulation? Yeah I’ve seen it and I’m not sold on that argument. Also he literally said he’s not sure about the resistance negation, plus is there any elaboration on how he bypassed Jerga’s resistance or not? If not we don’t assume resistance negation, at best that’s just layered hax. In regards to the mid godly it just sounds like resurrection to me.
 
Dereck03 said:
Bruh, you are clearly ignoring the full context now where it is said that the gods "Have no emotions and even say so many times", "are useless to them" and that emotions "Are only given to mortals not gods".
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Seems extremely blatant too. Just feels like stonewalling at this point.

"Are only given to mortals not gods" 100% implies that they literally do not have emotions.
 
image0-10-2-2.gif

Neutral.
 
Theglassman12 said:
Also he literally said he’s not sure about the resistance negation, plus is there any elaboration on how he bypassed Jerga’s resistance or not?
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Deagonx said:
Having read the full scans, I agree. Venuzdonoa seems to be responsible for the change. I am not sure that it's best characterized as resistance negation, but I think that's probably acceptable for now.
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Dereck03 said:
Yeah, venuz simply does the feats by simply being present and destroying the reason/logic. And simply negating the immunity of someone who is immune to holy magic and thus making him so that holy magic can affect him is clearly Resistance Negation... Soon there will be more Resistance Negation feats but they are still untranslated.
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He said he agreed and although he wasn't completely sure but was acceptable and then I clarified that exactly negating the resistance of something that makes you immune to X power and having that power affect you is textbook Resistance negation.

Heck, even fujiwara counted his vote as disagreeing with removing it.
Theglassman12 said:
In regards to the mid godly it just sounds like resurrection to me.
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So immortality 8 (Due to reliying on source) and resurrection (Resurrection stuffs in term of regeneration would be MGR in case you don't know).
Theglassman12 said:
You mean the part that hardly sounds much different than type 1 information manipulation? Yeah I’ve seen it and I’m not sold on that argument
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Well, fair.

And what about the fear stuffs?
BestMGQScalerEver said:
Seems extremely blatant too. Just feels like stonewalling at this point.

"Are only given to mortals not gods" 100% implies that they literally do not have emotions.
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Exactly, lol.
 
Theglassman12 said:
plus is there any elaboration on how he bypassed Jerga’s resistance or not?
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Not elaboration, it just sort of alludes to the notion that the presence of Venuzdonoa has some sort of reality warping effect that can override certain logic/order.

This scan and this scan are the important ones. In the first, Jerga explains that the sword won't affect him because he is made of the same holy power as it. He's shocked when it hurts him anyways, and then it reveals that the casle Delsgade, which contains Venuzdonoa, was transported above their area. This is spoken about as a reveal that explains why the sword hurt him, and it reads "Venuzdonoa, the Abolisher of Reason, was eroding the order of this place." Then Jerga curses him for "coming for justice itself."

So, I agree that this doesn't constitute resistance negation, I am not sure what it is, maybe some type of law manipulation? That overwrites the basic fact that a holy sword can't hurt a holy being. The logic/order/reason of that fact was overridden by the sword. So we should maybe put that under law manip.

Theglassman12 said:
In regards to the mid godly it just sounds like resurrection to me.
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I agree it's better as resurrection than regen, but whether it's LG or MG is still pertinent as both abilities use the same scale. So I think MG res is fine.

Theglassman12 said:
You mean the part that hardly sounds much different than type 1 information manipulation?
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Well, I am not sure if it's type 2, but I am certain that it isn't type 1. I'm honestly not sure the two "types" should be in the same category because they're really different, not like a lesser or higher form of each other.

Type 1 is manipulating knowledge, like making something unknowable, restricting the flow of information, etc.

Type 2 is manipulation information as a fundamental building block of reality. It can have really extreme applications but the page does explicitly say: For some it might just be the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities

From that perspective, the way that this ability is presented in the verse gives me a bit of friction. Like a "kinda, but also not entirely" but it's close enough that I think it's probably the most appropriate way to represent the ability.
 
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Passive abilties for venuzdonoa eh...

Just to make sure that logic/reason in verse is far different from order in verse, is the most powerfull abilitie in verse that's not Cm, nor law manipulation but logic manipulation, but since we don't have that abilty here we list it under a very powerfull law manipulation.

What about fear manip stuffs deagon?
 
Dereck03 said:
What about fear manip stuffs deagon?
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After reading the scans. I agree with your interpretation that the scan is fairly explicit that these beings do not have emotions. He seems surprised/initially dismissive of the experience as its happening to him, like he's in denial, and asks for an explanation. They said gods don't have emotions, and that emotions are given to mortals in order to survive.

I would agree that it constitutes fear manipulation.
 
Okay, the scan will suffice for gods to have inmunity to abilities such as Fear manip and empathic manip. There will be more when it is translated, for now that's all.

So anos' fear hax works on beigns with inmunity.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Dereck03 You mean the part that hardly sounds much different than type 1 information manipulation?
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Why i am not surprised with you. Can you show me where practically drawing formulas is information type 1? Crazy information type 1 is only limited to knowledge. Also here information manipulation is given to practical spells not to the things they are creating which is still valid for information manipulation type 2 because they are acting as building block of reality of whatever they creates. Do I need to copy paste the explanation from the information manipulation page so that you can understand the difference between both types.
 
@Dereck03 Immune is used a lot in fiction, that would need to be elaborated a bit more like Anos using a basic level holy magic that Jerga already resists only for him to get affected easily for it to be resistance negging.

Can you post the scans regarding the fear hax?

@Deagonx so just more Reason destroying stuff for Venuzdonoa, got it.

I mean controlling formulas sounds like controlling the knowledge itself as opposed to changing something that binds reality itself.
 
Theglassman12 said:
I mean controlling formulas sounds like controlling the knowledge itself as opposed to changing something that binds reality itself.
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How TF controlling formula = controlling knowledge 😭.
With formulas he is not changing knowledge. He is altering/creating things in the reality. Formula works as building block of reality for whatever they affect.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Dereck03 Immune is used a lot in fiction, that would need to be elaborated a bit more like Anos using a basic level holy magic that Jerga already resists only for him to get affected easily for it to be resistance negging.
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No, Evansmana which is a Holy weapon way too haxed to even kill Anos could not affect Jerga, after venuzdonoa destroyed that reason then Evansmana could be able to affect Jerga.
 
Theglassman12 said:
so just more Reason destroying stuff for Venuzdonoa, got it.

I mean controlling formulas sounds like controlling the knowledge itself as opposed to changing something that binds reality itself.
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So there are 4 scans in the album linked for the info manip, but only the second one matters at all.

Can cut throw the magic blueprint/spell formula that allows it to function, which nullifies the spell. For me, given the way magic is so deeply embedded in the verse, being able to slice through the formula itself is close enough to "For some it might just be the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities" that I think we have at least something to work with.

It'd be stronger if we had some statement that more directly addresses the nature of magic in the world, though. If there is a strong rejection of this idea, I don't feel so strongly about it that its a hill I want to die on, but I think there's something to it, at least.
 
Dereck03 said:
So if you were to destroy Sasha's source, Misha would die.
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Well not entirely true, because by default they root is different (militia's root and aberneyu's root). But if it happen to different person, yes if the root destroyed he and his copy will get erased
 
Fixxed said:
Well not entirely true, because by default they root is different (militia's root and aberneyu's root). But if it happen to different person, yes if the root destroyed he and his copy will get erased
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Leave the CM type 1 for sources for later the changes already applied to profiles.
 
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