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Anos is Back, and so are Maou Gakuin Downgrades

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Also, uh, idk if this is a good time to bring this up, but this isn't really resistance negation. It's just layered hax.
okay maybe i should've held off because there are a few more weird additions i overlooked
 
ImmortalDread said:
But you guys could derail Elde's tooha downgrade thread for over 2 pages?
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The first page of the Touhou thread mentions spite twelve times.
We haven't even reached a page yet and the word "spite" has been brought up 24 times now.

And again, "but they talked about a lot about spite in this thread" isn't a valid excuse. Why stoop to the same level as your opponent instead of moving on and actually addressing the real arguments? This sea of trashtalking will make it harder for people to actually evaluate the counterarguments.
 
Crazy there are tons of verses has same shit where there is no explanation page and many people still uses q &A thread as a medium to get to know the verses and here people Desperate enough to show their bias towards single verse out of nowhere just because they don't understand a thing.
Blackcurrant91 said:
If your argument is genuinely 'we will explain this later' then it should be removed till said explanation is available regardless of if it is valid or not.
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EldemadeDityjon said:
Crazy there are tons of verses has same shit where there is no explanation page or and many people still uses A &A thread as a medium to get to know the verses and here people Desperate enough to show their bias towards single verse out of nowhere just because they don't understand a thing.
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I 'Don't understand a thing' because there is no scans or blog explaining said thing. You guys are just talking utter nonsense at this point.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Concept Manipulation (Type 1)

Anos has this because he can destroy sources. First of all, sources were never accepted as being type 1; The verse was deleted before the proposed upgrade ever passed. Secondly, sources were downgraded to type 3 concepts here. So there is no accepted basis for sources being rated this high, while there is a basis for them being rated much lower.
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Nothing to say here. The entire basis of the supposed "downgrade"- which was the source governing only 1 individual and is thus a personal concept- was rejected by Don'tTalk DT.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Immortality Negation

Anos resists immortality negation (types 3, 4, and 8) because he can survive the destruction of his source, which grants him that immortality. The only problem is, destroying the source isn't immortality negation; It's just how reliant immortality works in this case, where characters rely on their sources. So there's no "immortality negation" to speak of here; That'd be like saying Harry Potter has immortality negation from destroying Voldemort's horcruxes. The same logic applies to Anos' own immortality negation through Venuzdonoa, though in both cases it seems like HGR negation is fine to stay.
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Try to read it next time? Evansmana is a weapon forged specifically tonegate Anos powers.
A demon king whose source is pierced by Evansmana can't revive or reincarnate
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Despite this, Anos was perfectly capable of reviving abd regenerating his source even when Evansmana had already negated Jerga's regeneration
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Information Manipulation (Type 2)

The basis for this is that magical formulae are used to determine the properties of a spell. That's it. This is nowhere near enough for type 2 info hax; It is the equivalent of saying that a recipe is type 2 info, just because changing it changes the kind of food you make.

There are likely some minor things I missed, but these were the most eye-catching to me. However, I do think the profile is a big improvement overall, thank god, so at least there's that.
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At the core of every spell is a spell formula. A magical blueprint that allows it to function, determines the function. Changing the spell formula changes the properties of the spell.

Your analogy is wrong because the spell formula is what creates the spell. A recipe isn't doing the cooking it's just instructions to follow in preparing food. Spell formula aren't instructions it's what creates the spell and dictates the functions.

Also from the the Info manipulation page
These characters can manipulate information, which serves as fundamental building block of reality. This can allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims, often by programming it much like they would a virtual reality. These manipulation can come on many levels. For some it might just be the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities, while others can rewrite information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature.
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Blackcurrant91 said:
I 'Don't understand a thing' because there is no scans or blog explaining said thing. You guys are just talking utter nonsense at this point.
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Ever checked other verses here ? No one is so Desperate enough to drop a Downgrade CRT without even trying to ask supporters of course bs people are different.

Also scans are already in the profile where its stated Gods are order itself. It's OP Ignorance that's all.
Regeneration Negation (High-Godly. Can negate the immortality/regeneration of the gods[109], who can regenerate from source destruction[110]. Beings made of Order can reform themselves even after having their source destroyed by <Vebdoz>),
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"Beings Made up of order"
 
True, I only find it amusing and actually hilarious that when it comes to other threads of other verses, spite threads are getting derailed and also closed, but when it comes to one obvious like this where even OP declare it as one, we should keep silent and move on.

Double standard at its finest.

Anyway going back to the discussion, I have no words for source CM type 1 as there are couple of threads adjusting it. So not even sure what is CM type 1 or type 3 anymore.

But I will address tmr (as currently it is 2:20 am) about immo negation (funny how almost every verse works on this logic but you want to play the game as it is not the case) and information type 2 (will leave it rather to Tatsumi as he is the one suggested it)
 
Tatsumi504 said:
Nothing to say here. The entire basis of the supposed "downgrade"- which was the source governing only 1 individual and is thus a personal concept- was rejected by Don'tTalk DT.

Try to read it next time? Evansmana is a weapon forged specifically tonegate Anos powers.
Despite this, Anos was perfectly capable of reviving abd regenerating his source even when Evansmana had already negated Jerga's regeneration

At the core of every spell is a spell formula. A magical blueprint that allows it to function, determines the function. Changing the spell formula changes the properties of the spell.

Your analogy is wrong because the spell formula is what creates the spell. A recipe isn't doing the cooking it's just instructions to follow in preparing food. Spell formula aren't instructions it's what creates the spell and dictates the functions.

Also from the the Info manipulation page
Click to expand...
I'll respond to the rest later, but DT specifically states that a personal concept can only ever be type 3.
 
ImmortalDread said:
True, I only find it amusing and actually hilarious that when it comes to other threads of other verses, spite threads are getting derailed and also closed, but when it comes to one obvious like this where even OP declare it as one, we should keep silent and move on.

Double standard at its finest.

Anyway going back to the discussion, I have no words for source CM type 1 as there are couple or threads adjusting it. So not even sure what is CM type 1 or type 3 anymore.

But I will address tmr (as currently it is 2:20 am) about immo negation (funny how almost every verse works on this logic but you want to play the game as it is not the case) and information type 2 (will leave it rather to Tatsumi as he is the one suggested it)
Click to expand...
I love how you're Implying the Maou Gakuin supporters don't spite verses(Cough that entire Touhou CM thread cough), ya'll MFers ain't innocent either

TBH neither am I
 
Oblivion_Of_The_Endless said:
Quite hard to keep track of what's happening. Are people saying gods arent AE type 1?
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People are requesting sufficient evidence for the re-addition of type 1 concepts after the last thread regarding them was that they where changed to type 3. Currently the scans on the profile indicate that source is a type 1 concept without any explanation as to why it is a deeper concept then order.
 
Blackcurrant91 said:
People are requesting sufficient evidence for the re-addition of type 1 concepts after the last thread regarding them was that they where changed to type 3. Currently the scans on the profile indicate that source is a type 1 concept without any explanation as to why it is a deeper concept then order.
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Yeah but Elde said gods themselves, who are order/concepts, still have their own sources. Then Mokou said they dont (?)
 
Celestial_Pegasus said:
..
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Maverick_Zero_X said:
.
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I don't care about information manipulation type 2 but I will just address this Conceptual Manipulation Type 1. Gods are embodiments of Order and order itself and they are concepts type 1 and Source even fundamental concepts for Gods and everything in the verse. CM type 1 gods < Source (Fundamental Concepts). This is why source is listed as type 1 concept. Anyway scans were already in the profile. I am just copy pasting here. You can check the 3rd line.
Regeneration Negation (High-Godly. Can negate the immortality/regeneration of the gods[109], who can regenerate from source destruction[110]. Beings made of Order can reform themselves even after having their source destroyed by <Vebdoz>),
Click to expand...
 
EldemadeDityjon said:
I don't care about information manipulation type 2 but I will just address this Conceptual Manipulation Type 1. Gods are embodiments of Order and order itself and they are concepts type 1 and Source even fundamental concepts for Gods and everything in the verse. CM type 1 gods < Source (Fundamental Concepts). This is why source is listed as type 1 concept. Anyway scans were already in the profile. I am just copy pasting here. You can check the 3rd line.
Click to expand...
Put this into the concept manipulation section of the profile as well so its you know like clear and concise.
 
Tatsumi504 said:
At the core of every spell is a spell formula. A magical blueprint that allows it to function, determines the function. Changing the spell formula changes the properties of the spell.

Your analogy is wrong because the spell formula is what creates the spell. A recipe isn't doing the cooking it's just instructions to follow in preparing food. Spell formula aren't instructions it's what creates the spell and dictates the functions.
Click to expand...
That doesn't make it type 2, changing the parameters of a spell is not the same as changing reality itself, you are changing what the spell that will then go on to change reality does, not actually changing reality, using the comparison I said before, upcasting/using metamagic in dnd isn't the same as changing the magic system itself, one changes the behavior of a spell, which wouldn't be type 2, the other changes the logic and workings of all magical abilities altogether (not that dnd, has info manip based off this to my knowledge, but the comparison still holds water)
Tatsumi504 said:
Also from the the Info manipulation page
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That isn't what the intent there is, it is referring to verses where the magic system is based upon editing the underlying information of reality to produce magical effects, which is not the case here.
 
Blackcurrant91 said:
Why is this not on the profile? Some sort of explanation as to why sources are a deeper concept then Gods would be appreciated, especially as the last it was discussed sources where downgraded to type 3.
Click to expand...
A downgrade done by manipulating the vagueness of the CM description, nice.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
I'll respond to the rest later, but DT specifically states that a personal concept can only ever be type 3.
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And now you're trying to manipulate what DT said.
In the usual sense, a concept of x is expected to govern all x in the world.
A concept of fire governs all fire in the world at once.
A concept of water governs all water in the world at once.
And a concept of Naruto Uzumaki would govern all Naruto Uzumaki in the world at once, even if there is at the moment only one. If there were more, it would govern all.

In contrast, a personal concept doesn't govern all of something, but just one thing in particular.
If you point a weapon that destroys personal concepts at fire and destroy the fire concept with it, only that one fire will be erased. All other fire in existence is fine.

DontTalkDT once again;
A type 1 / 2 concept can only have a single object participate in it, but it would still be the universal concept. (As in, if a duplicate of the object were to be created, it would then participate in that same concept.)
Personal concepts are concepts which, by definition, only govern specific aspects about your personal existence, it doesn’t reference “scope” to mean a singular person, it’s referencing “scope” in the sphere of influence it defines, for an example; the personal conceptualization of emotions would be a considered as a Type 3 Concept since it only defines the emotions of someone, it wouldn’t define that person’s existence, ability of thought etc, nor define the personal emotions of everyone else. It’s by its sheer existence unable to be anything above Type 3 since it doesn’t define anything else within that “sphere of influence” of emotions.
What DT said is a concept that doesn't govern a set of things even if that set is only 1 thing but rather governs something very specific, then that concept is type 3.

The Source governs all aspects of the individual, its sphere of influence is the individual, the set it governs is the individual. It defines everything about the individual not something specific about it so it isn't type 3.
The source also fits the description for type 1 which alone proves it's not type 3.
 
Shmooply said:
Then ask for the profile to be deleted, then reupload it after it's made so threads like these don't end up being made again.
Click to expand...
There are plenty profiles in wiki which lacks explanation feel free to delete all of them instead of asking one profile which atleast has better scans to be deleted instead 🚬🗿
Blackcurrant91 said:
Okay we are just going in circles now. Thats not how this works. Why can we just not move literally any scan or explanation to the concepts section that show that sources are a deeper concept then Gods/Order. This would literally take a few minutes and make the profile so much more readable.
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I will ask Oblivion or dread to edit that then wait.
 
Tatsumi504 said:
A downgrade done by manipulating the vagueness of the CM description, nice.
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I am not being spiteful here, it's interesting how you suddenly consider this a downgrade now when you where saying type 1 isn't better then type 3.

All I am asking for is a sufficient explanation for type 1 which doesn't exist in the section where you mention it like its not hard to understand.
 
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