Major Castlevania revisions

[Ultima_Reality]

As for all the top tiers, they will be upgraded to 2-C thanks to the Time Reaper's feat who threatened to erase all the Castlevania timelines The thing that makes this feat 2-C and not Low 2-C for those of you that are curious is the fact that in the game, Cornell is a playable character and one of the chosen warriors picked by Aeon to stop the Time Reaper. Cornell is from the Nintendo 64 Castlevania games, which aren't canon to the main timeline of the series.

This argument doesn't quite work here, because in the context of Castlevania Judgement, Cornell is treated as living in the same world as all of the other characters, which is evidenced by how he is among the heroes that Dracula remembers having fought in the past, as shown by his battle dialogue against him and Simon. Obviously, Dracula can't remember events from two different universes entirely, so that much already puts a dent in the proposal.

If this was not enough, though. I could point out an explanation given by IGA himself:

Fan: You mentioned Legend of Cornell was an alternate continuity. However, Cornell appears in Castlevania Judgment, which I believe is not an alternate continuity. How does that work? is he from a different universe than the other characters? It is not really explained in the game itself so I was hoping you could give some clarification on the issue.

IGA: Judgment is a work that surpasses space and time and brings them together.
Without thinking about it too deeply, he has simply been chosen because he’s a character that pervades the series. I don't know if that's the kind of answer you were looking for, but that's about the size of it.

Fan:I get it. So, is the explanation I suggested in the previous reply possibly correct?

IGA: I don't think it's exactly correct. Judgment is a work born of thinking it would be fun to remove all the hedges and bring characters that appeared throughout the series together. I think that you need to view it as an event from another world which does not consider things like timelines or parallel dimensions at all.

As one can gather, Igarashi is basically saying that Cornell was chosen for Judgement's roster for the sole reason that he is a popular character, and in the same answer, he even notes that his appearance is not really something we're supposed to think too deeply about. Further, he also directly states that the fan's suggested explanation (That Cornell is from another universe than the other characters) is not really correct, and that Judgement's setting doesn't really take into account things like alternate timelines at all, because they self-admittedly made the game itself as an excuse plot made for the one purpose of fanservice and dumb fun, without concerning themselves with the logic behind it all.

Given the above, the Time Reaper's feat is not really 2-C, no, and you could also use the same reasoning to make an argument for Judgement being non-canon, especially taking into account the last part of Igarashi's answer. Given Adi Shankar's statement, though, this is questionable, and that on its own also opens up the possibility of Judgement just taking place relative to an alternate timeline where Legacy of Darkness happened alongside the main games.

One more thing: Why exactly are powers and showings from Lords of Shadows being applied to characters from the main continuity?

Now, onto other things:

Type 1 Abstract Existence for Death: None of the scans linked in the sandbox suggest Type 1. This is just a word salad text throwing out a bunch of intimidating titles for him, this just says that he governs the death of all living things (Something that is not above the paygrade of a Type 2 Abstract), this is just the narration talking about Olrox sensing his presence, and this is nothing. Death having Type 1 AE at all is also heavily contradicted by the fact he quite clearly has a physical form in nearly every game in which he appears, and in the one time he is fought in an intangible form, there is a clear visual indicator of that in the form of him being translucent, something which is absent from every other game. Same applies to Dracula, really; Dracula X Chronicles' opening even refers to him as "evil made flesh."

High-Godly Regeneration: This scan is not really something I would take literally, given that Death was not erased from existence neither in Aria nor in Dawn, as evidenced by how you absorb his soul afterwards in both occasions.

Mid-Godly Regeneration: This is not evidence of Mid-Godly, in particular because the screen directly states that the Innocent Devils revert to a "soul form" after losing health and can return to a material form from that state with Hector's help, which is just Low-Godly. I also don't really know how this shows Devils can reform themselves? It just seems like it's talking about the process through which they are created.

Acausality: Is there any evidence that this is a natural characteristic of all creatures of Chaos, and not just of the Navigators in particular?

Type 1 Conceptual Manipulation: Can Death even be said to be independent from reality? Olrox directly states that he will just live on for as long as humanity itself exists, which Death agrees to by commenting that he will die out once he no longer has any reason to exist. Further than that, both Alucard and Olrox state that Chaos is born from the hearts of humans. Of course, there could be some retroactive element here, but I don't think there's any direct evidence of that being the case.

Resistance to Quantum and Spatial Manipulation (Can resist the effects of magic, which can warp Quantum Space barriers, which is stated to be a paranormal Phenomena, which makes it common for even creatures of the night)

I fail to see how the first thing means any creature of the night has Quantum Manipulation, nor how it equates to the Belmont resisting it.

Law Manipulation and Physics Manipulation (Can resist the inverted castle's warpings on the laws of everything that functions in the castle)

As far as I am aware, there is nothing showing that the Inverted Castle applies its nature to anyone who a sets a foot inside of it. The place was literally created in that state; that's just how it naturally is.

Resistance to Plot Manipulation (They are capable of resisting the effects of Chaos which can rewrite the entire narrative it's in to ensure it being the winner, and overwriting all of reality):

"Overwriting all of reality" is not something that's even remotely suggested by that scan. All this states is that, eventually, the chaotic power in the Grimoires would eventually overflow into reality, and the only effect this would bring about, as Alucard explains, is monsters starting to materialize in the real world.

As for the Plot Manipulation itself: The only time this has ever been demonstrated is when it altered Grimoires, and as far as I am aware, the same never really happened in the real world. As mentioned above, the only effect that the chaotic magic overflowing from the books and into reality would have is causing monsters to start materializing, and not much else, so I think we should note that it's very, very limited in application.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Bobsican Creating an entire universe would have to involve making an entire axis of time as well. Last time I checked that was accepted to be the bare minimum with creating universes.

there is an abyss in Lords of Shadow, they make it pretty clear it exists.

great job on ignoring my point, they’re two alternate worlds with their own different time flow. That’s the argument I’m making.

 

[Chariot190]

@Chariot190 Olrox literally dodges the move in the very scan Death kills distance. Same with virtually every single character who dodged his sickle ability he spams as that’s a basic thing he does.

He might've, or he might not, It doesn't actually say he dodged, it just says Death hit an afterimage.

Also his first instinct against someone who opposes Dracula is to use his same sickle attack that he always does in the series, this time however we can hear from his perspective on what he does when using the sickle moves. That’s the only thing remotely different about how he uses these same moves, that we see it from Death’s perspective on what he does. Richter has a cutscene of dodging these moves in Dracula X chronicles

That's being extremely presumptuous, like it or not, no matter how you slice, it, we do not know, pretending to know or saying "yeah he's actually always doing this" is conjecture, sure he might be, or he might not be, matter of the fact is we do not know.
He's using his sickle move yeah in both cases, but is he literally killing distance in both cases? That we do not know, doubly so given he also killed sound in the instance against Olrox and he sure as hell isn't killing sound 99% of the other times he uses that move, what's the difference between sound and distance? Why is distance assumed to be always used when we simply do not know and the other facet of what he did isn't always used? Sorry lad but you can't say it as a hard fact, you objectively can not.

I don’t really understand what you’re arguing here when Olrox even has showings of physically moving while the afterimages happen. He only makes afterimages when he’s already moved, so he has to have at bare minimum reacted.

That isn't even true, Olrox moving leaves afterimages sure, but that doesn't mean he couldn't have started moving ahead of time. After all, the afterimages last for a second or so and we're dealing with what is essentially a teleporting attack, it'd hit the afterimage no matter how long it lasted. Again, it never says he dodged, he could've dodged and flatout reacted, or he could've started moving a slight moment faster and got behind Death while Death struck the afterimage.

Unless you bring hard confirmation he always does, which, mind you, isn't an inherent automatic quality of the move, but something he manually does, and hard confirmation that Olrox dodged and avoided it after distance was killed, not before, you can not, 100% say, objectively, anything is Infinite, at best it's a mere possibility, I could agree to a possibly, but flat out? Well that's being way to generous and not at all taking into account the variables and potential interpretations of a nondirect scene we don't even have visuals of.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Unless you bring hard confirmation he always does, which, mind you, isn't an inherent automatic quality of the move, but something he manually does, and hard confirmation that Olrox dodged and avoided it after distance was killed, not before, you can not, 100% say, objectively, anything is Infinite, at best it's a mere possibility, I could agree to a possibly, but flat out? Well that's being way to generous and not at all taking into account the variables and potential interpretations of a nondirect scene we don't even have visuals of.

That's being very ignorant to Death's behavior on the series and his relation to his enemies. He is directly agressive to every enemy against his Master once his plot goes into motion and their time to fight begins (The notable exception being Alucard, thanks to his connection to Dracula), fought against many of them in mortal battles that were going to decide the fate of the world and ur assuming death is not going all out and using his best attacks ? He literally has zero reasons to not use it. As Glass said, the attack is the very same he uses on every encounter we see, the main difference is being on his own perspective, you expect we to have him saying "go kill distance" on every time he launches his most common attack in order to scale the feat ? That's, again, completely ignorant to Death's behavior and completely reverses the burden of proof asking something far beyond the reasonable. It's you who has to prove that Death, despite always being directly agressive against Dracula's enemies and fighting final battles against 80% of the cast, NEVER used such common attack on the same potency he used against Olrox, someone far from the strongest hunters in terms of power, and that his own description of his most common attack only applies to this battle

 

[Chariot190]

That's being very ignorant to Death's behavior on the series and his relation to his enemies.

No it's me going "hey let's not assume he uses this specific hax literally every time he throws an attack because nothing actually indicates he does no matter how much you think he should be doing it", like it or not, that's how this wiki works, you don't just assume shit because "oh well that makes some sense".

He is directly agressive to every enemy against his Master once his plot goes into motion and their time to fight begins, fought against many of them in mortal battles that were going to decide the fate of the world and ur assuming death is not going all out and using his best attacks ?

Yes I am, because nothing says or shows that he is, that is why. It doesn't ******* matter if you THINK he SHOULD be doing it, we do not know, don't pretend you know, because you don't. Why doesn't Death do half the shit he could do but doesn't in a fight? It's because who gives a shi fact is he just doesn't and that's what matters.

He literally has zero reasons to not use it.

He has zero reasons not to use half his hax either. You're arguing out of disbelief and holding a character up to some sort of standard that "oh shit he has this type of hax, that hax is pretty useful so that must mean he MUST ALWAYS BE USING IT". No, not how it works, for any verse on the wiki, unless we're told he uses it all the time or are directly shown that, we do not assume that. This is no different than the dozens if not hundreds of other verses where things like character's don't get resistances to other character's specific moves or something or abilities because we don't know if they actually used them or not even though we know they have them and it would make sense for them to, because, like it or not, we don't assume shit here based on personal biases.

As Glass said, the attack is the very same he uses on every encounter we see, the main difference is being on his own perspective, you expect we to have him saying "go kill distance" on every time he launches his most common attack in order to scale the feat ?

Ignoring the fact it specifies it isn't his usual shit, I expect it to show him killing distance every time or it saying he does it often at the very least, we have neither of that. What we have is a single line in a relatively obscure novel where Death kills distance to try and land an attack and this ability is never mentioned at or hinted at in any other piece of Castlevania media literally ever. It doesn't matter if he can do it, we need to know he does it every time. And again, it being the """"same attack"""" is a completely nonexistent point, because this distance killing hax isn't an inherent quality of the scythe attack, it's something disconnected from it he did to amplify the scythe attack. It's no shit like arguing Goku's Instant Kamehameha was instant speed so that means all his Kamehameha's would be instant, no, it wouldn't, the instant factor of it, the teleportation aspect, in both cases, is the result of something unrelated to the attack itself, merely used in conjunction. We do not know if he does this every time, saying it again and again isn't gonna make it anymore not wrong. >other verse example.
Yes, if the shoe fits.

That's, again, completely ignorant to Death's behavior and completely reverses the burden of proof asking something far beyond the reasonable.

I don't give a damn if you think he should do it and it'd fit his character, what matters is if he actually does do it, not because you think he should.
Here.
1. Visual evidence he kills distance in his scythe moves in any other fight.
2. A statement saying he kills distance quite often or he uses it at least sometimes. (I'm not asking every time, just that he does it often enough).
3. Confirmation that this is actually completely automatic inherent quality of the move.

Pick one, that's all you need, 2 especially should be easy if this is actually the case. If none can be shown, then no, you can't say or pretend it's a certain way based on personal beliefs, we need actual evidence, thinking he should do it doesn't mean he does do it.

It's you who has to prove that Death, despite always being directly agressive against Dracula's enemies and fighting final battles against 80% of the cast, NEVER used such common attack on the same potency he used against Olrox, someone far from the strongest hunters in terms of power, and that his own description of his most common attack only applies to this battle

You're conflating his hax and his attacks to be one and the same, they aren't, and it's not on me to prove a negative, you're making the claim he always uses the move despite no such statement or visual indication existing to my knowledge, if there does exist such information or proof, post it, untill then you can not, by virtue of how we do things on this website, claim he is ALWAYS using this hax with his attacks, regardless of if logically, it would be quite useful. Do you know how many characters and verses would get upgraded to hell and back if we assumed a dude who has a nice hax is actually using it in every fight because "well it'd make sense if he was".

Post hard evidence, or settle with a very generous possibly infinite, at best, there is no world were a hard infinite is gonna be happening unless you post sauce.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

The Low 2-C part comes from the fact that when Menace dies, the entire castle collapses as a result, which is an entire world with another dimension below it

Forgot to address this, but I am of the opinion that the Abyss' collapse is just High 3-A. Low 2-C would imply that it was destroyed throughout all of past, present and future, which very clearly is not what happens here.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Ultima_Reality Dracula is fully aware of alternate realities given he's 100% familiar with Aeon the moment he meets him in the story mode, so him being aware of Cornell and Simon isn't much of a questionable thing. Hell even Death is fully aware of alternate realities as when he talks to Aeon, his first response is asking if the era's on the verge of collapse.

Also no, Cornell is very clearly from the N64 games, his character ending explains the prologue of his own game. Something that's never once justified to be canon to the main timeline at all. So it wouldn't make sense for this Cornell to be in the same world as the main timeline if he follows his N64 timeline to a T.

The powers of Chaos from LoS is applied to the main continuity since they share the same world view and lore, on top of being in the same multiverse as stated by numerous WoG. And considering LoS has so many things in common with the main lore, such as Dracula's immortality, his castle, chaos, etc. They would cross scale with the bare minimum chaos powers.

I don't understand how being the Sin of Death itself is flowery language given the character we're talking about. Also he has avatars to represent himself as shown in Lords of Shadow, that's not something a type 2 abstract can do. Also Death's scythe is stated to not be physical at all. And his scythe is an extension of himself, so there's more than just Aria to prove he has a non-physical state.

Except for after you defeat chaos and all the souls vanish from Soma's body. The EE happening there isn't much of a contradiction if it happened there given what happens to Chaos at the end of the game.

I literally have a scan of Lyudmill regenerating his soul in the Drama CD in my reasoning. Not only that but all the monsters from Aria come back despite having no bodies like Balore, Persephone, etc. So they can form their bodies back as well as their souls.

Ghosts, numerous monsters, etc. Have similar characteristics of the navigators like having several bodies at once. Being unable to feel pain like the White Dragon, or other creatures of chaos being free from gravity related limitations like in the circus area in Portrait of Ruin with the warped gravity.

Death comes from chaos, and Chaos predates reality as it's the opposite to god, who made the entire multiverse. So yeah he should be type 1 for coming from something that predates the existence of man.

Every single boss monster in Portrait of Ruin has control over the entire quantum space in each painting, as shown when Jonathan and Charlotte defeats Dullahan they notice the flow of power from the paintings is cut off from Brauner. Add to the fact that anyone adept with magic can do this, like the Lecardes, Charlotte, Brauner, and the fact it's compared as a paranormal phenomenon, something normal monsters have in their bestiary, it shouldn't be a stretch to assume that this cross scales to any creature of chaos. Also the belmonts have resistance to magic as shown in their bestiary where they can no sell holy magic, and several others.

Already addressed this on discord, Legion's corpses is affected by the Inverted castle as you can see them in the ceiling as opposed to the floor. Not only that but the candles which are affected are stated by Igarashi in an interview to be souls. So it's not merely affecting only the castle, it's affecting the residents inside of it.

Actually it does happen in the real world given the magic books can do just that. So no, it's not limited to the books they're in.

The Low 2-C part is referring to the entire castle which is an alternate world collapsing, though I wouldn't really care if it got nuked since I have it as possibly.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Indeed, they are born with only one power of the many Drac had and, unlike the others, Graham (and later Soma) absorbed all the powers of Dracula. That's the whole plot of AoS, reaching the throne room to get Drac's powers.

So? He just absorbed all the power of Chaos the fake castle had. This isn't like AoS when Soma absorbs Drac's powers on top of getting more dark powers continuously. And no, Julius just says "He's grown so powerful" as a Dark Lord, meaning he is stronger than his normal self which considering he already is stronger than both of them seems like a fine statement.

And you are ignoring how Soma didn't even want to fight in the first place so there isn't much of a comparison here. Both admitted Julius was holding back, yes, but so was Soma. Julius even speaks highly of Soma during the pre fight with chaos saying "The man who defeated me, I expect much from you". And again, Soma is continuously getting more power, the Soma that defeated Julius doesn't compare to the one that faced Chaos.

Except, you know, the fact that in Aria only Julius fights Soma while in Dawn there are 3 of them. Once again this is a 3v1, against a Soma who isn't as strong as AoS by a long shot. Also, not canon

The difference here lays once again in the fact that AoS Soma had control over the powers of Dracula, he wasn't a Dark Lord yet and was going to fight Chaos. DoS Soma doesn't have dracs powers, he isn't constantly getting more dark powers, he only absorbed the powers of chaos that are in the castle and he only got turned into a dark lord because of his dark emotions. Also, the statement is "He's grown so powerful", not "He is growing so strong" which implies he is constantly getting stronger which isn't the case here.

He has less power because he doesn't have the powers Drac had (which are still sealed in an eclipse mind you). He wasn't getting stronger this time around as there was no need for Chaos to constantly pump more into him in hopes of turning him into a Dark Lord as he accepted the position out of anger and grief. Remember in Aria he is getting more power and both he and Arikado knows that it is meant to make him a dark lord, a puppet of chaos. Also, Dark Lord Soma doesn't get more power and there aren't any statements for that (that I know of)

It isn't, Soma all through both games gains all the abilities dracula had but that doesn't make him a dark lord not to mention that Dracula's powers are specifically sealed in an eclipse and were kept there at the end of AoS. Yeah he uses the same abilities as dracula because through the game he has gained them thanks to the power of dominance and killind demons and all that stuff but this isn't the monstruos power of Dracula.

A scan saying he is massively nerfed would be good, since a failed copy of soma's powers is already enough to slap him away like a fly.

Julius losing to Dario is a massive outlier, nothing more nothing less. The fact Dmitrii failed to contain Menace who sustains the Abyss should be in your face and I've already addressed this in the stats in the OP.

Just saying outlier won't cut it out. He is a dark lord candidate, Graham easily overpowered and almost killed Yoko (who going by your logic would scale way higher since she fights Dark Lord Soma) while he doesn't even have Dracula's powers. Dario specifically fused his soul with a demon to get more power, not regen or immortality but more power which is what Soma cuts off/destroys. Wrong, Dmitrii wasn't capable of sustaining Soma's power, not menace, that's why he becomes Menace.

So? the main feat (meance and the abyss) puts them at H3A-L2C level but scaling puts them higher, easy fix. Also, also, why did you use AoS to justify the fake castle created by the cult?

 

[Theglassman12]

@Tony_di_bugalu Again, Dmitrii and Dario having dracula's powers too means he didn't get all of the powers of Dracula.

It's still chaos powers and he still grew stronger as a result so yeah, not really a good argument to stand on.

And yet Soma believes that Julius is strong enough to take him down as the Dark Lord, which is heavily implied to be true as Julius comes back to finish the job.

Again, the fact Julius and Alucard's remotely comparable to Dark Lord soma to the point they can win is proof that Julius is strong enough to beat him. Also Yoko's not as comparable as the other two since she got wounded by Graham.

He literally does get Dracula's powers, what do you call transforming into the same Demon dracula does? Also the wording doesn't change the fact Alucard decided to get so strong and team up with Julius to not risk any failures.

You do realize there's more than one way to channel chaos' powers in the series right? Dawn of Sorrow is blatant proof of it, which debunks your claim on Chaos not pumping him with energy. The same thing happens to him in Dawn of Sorrow, he's turning into the Dark Lord, that's literally Celia's entire motivation in the game.

He never gained the ability to turn into the same demon Dracula turns into, also he gains dominance over monsters he hasn't fought yet, like Gaibon and Abaddon, they come way after the dark lord moment.

Sure, here they are.

No, I didn't scale Yoko above or even comparable to Soma, her being around Graham is kind of an anti feat for her scaling to DL Soma, also he did get dracula's powers, you literally posted a scan saying just that. A dark lord candidate that can't handle the power of dominance and the monsters inside of him, yeah how impressive of a DL candidate compared to Graham. Julius literally says he's able to kill the boss monsters with their higher tier immortality, and admit that he can't do the same to Dario.

Which part are you talking about with the fake castle?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Dracula is fully aware of alternate realities given he's 100% familiar with Aeon the moment he meets him in the story mode, so him being aware of Cornell and Simon isn't much of a questionable thing. Hell even Death is fully aware of alternate realities as when he talks to Aeon, his first response is asking if the era's on the verge of collapse.

The issue is that Dracula isn't just aware that Cornell exists, but he also remembers having fought him in the past ("It's coming back to me," after all, is something you say when you remember something). Saying that Cornell is from an alternate timeline within the context of Judgement would imply that this means Dracula can remember events from two different univeses as if he had experienced both himself, which is a degree of Cosmic Awareness he never demonstrated once. Even the examples you gave with Death and Dracula only involved the former noticing that the timeline was about to collapse and the latter being aware that Aeon is a time traveller, which doesn't do much to support your point.

Also no, Cornell is very clearly from the N64 games, his character ending explains the prologue of his own game. Something that's never once justified to be canon to the main timeline at all. So it wouldn't make sense for this Cornell to be in the same world as the main timeline

I never said he wasn't. My point is that Igarashi quite directly says that Cornell is not supposed to be from a different universe than the other characters in Judgement, because, again, his appearance there is not something we're supposed to think too deeply about, which is hammered home even further when you look at how he also says Judgement doesn't take into account things like parallel dimensions whatsoever, nor does it concern itself with the logistics of it all.

The powers of Chaos from LoS is applied to the main continuity since they share the same world view and lore, on top of being in the same multiverse as stated by numerous WoG. And considering LoS has so many things in common with the main lore, such as Dracula's immortality, his castle, chaos, etc.

I thought we were very directly against cross-scaling between alternate universe counterparts unless there was something directly demonstrating them to be identical in this regard. I recall that being a standard that was applied to a few Marvel profiles, at least.

.

I don't understand how being the Sin of Death itself is flowery language given the character we're talking about.

Flowery language is not my point, and that is not what the text says:

He is Death. Death portrays utter fear. That is to say, he is the absolute presence, the sin, the religion, and the dark god. Of course, those who oppose a god never survive

^ This is a vague word salad that has no meaning beyond what you chose to interpret it as. As said, it's just throwing out intimidating titles for him with no context at all, and even if we chose to humor that, him being called "the absolute presence" or "the sin of death" would not be indicative of Type 1 in any way. It's on you to explain how it would, in fact.

Also he has avatars to represent himself as shown in Lords of Shadow, that's not something a type 2 abstract can do.

Why not? All this says is that the Reapers are corporeal manifestations of him; as in, they are manifestations that are corporeal. It doesn't necessarily mean he is not himself a corporeal being; Avatar Creation is an ability that a character can have regardless of whether or not they are physical.

Also Death's scythe is stated to not be physical at all. And his scythe is an extension of himself, so there's more than just Aria to prove he has a non-physical state

This just seems like it refers to the tiny scythes that Death creates in every single boss fight of his. It's just talking about an object that he created through his magic. His scythe itself being non-physical would also contradict Aria of Sorrow, where the whole gimmick of his first phase is that it is tangible, but he isn't, and so you have to attack it until he is forced to assume material form.

Except for after you defeat chaos and all the souls vanish from Soma's body. The EE happening there isn't much of a contradiction if it happened there given what happens to Chaos at the end of the game.

Clearly not what the excerpt is referring to, given it says that Death was erased because Soma used the Power of Dominance, not because Chaos was defeated.

Ghosts, numerous monsters, etc. Have similar characteristics of the navigators like having several bodies at once. Being unable to feel pain like the White Dragon, or other creatures of chaos being free from gravity related limitations like in the circus area in Portrait of Ruin with the warped gravity.

None of this proves that the statement about the Navigators applies to all Creatures of Chaos. Having similar characteristics doesn't mean that the root cause of those characteristics is the same between all of them. For instance, the White Dragon feeling no pain could very well be because the thing is just a skeleton, not because it's conceptually nonexistent.

I literally have a scan of Lyudmill regenerating his soul in the Drama CD in my reasoning. Not only that but all the monsters from Aria come back despite having no bodies like Balore, Persephone, etc. So they can form their bodies back as well as their souls.

Dracula's legions are very much physical monsters, though. That much is evident throughout every game, and the fact that they have souls that exist separately from their bodies just hammers that point further.

I haven't really seen any scan showing that creatures of chaos can reform their bodies from complete destruction, either. The only thing that suggests as much is the Innocent Devils being able to return to a material form with Hector's help, but I haven't seen anything showing the same applies to Vampires.

Death comes from chaos, and Chaos predates reality as it's the opposite to god, who made the entire multiverse. So yeah he should be type 1 for coming from

Again, though. Chaos and Death both come from humanity, and the latter will explicity die out once all humans do. They can't really predate reality under those premises, unless humanity created them retroactively, which is never stated to be the case.

Every single boss monster in Portrait of Ruin has control over the entire quantum space in each painting, as shown when Jonathan and Charlotte defeats Dullahan they notice the flow of power from the paintings is cut off from Brauner. Add to the fact that anyone adept with magic can do this, like the Lecardes, Charlotte, Brauner, and the fact it's compared as a paranormal phenomenon, something normal monsters have in their bestiary, it shouldn't be a stretch to assume that this cross scales to any creature of chaos. Also the belmonts have resistance to magic as shown in their bestiary where they can no sell holy magic, and several others.

All the boss monsters do in Portrait of Ruin is act as channels for the power of Dracula's Castle alongside the paintings. They never really control or sustain them, or anything of the sort.

"A quantum space-barrier is described as a paranormal phenomenon, and normal monsters can do paranormal phemomena, therefore they can replicate such a barrier" is a massive stretch because it also assumes that monsters can accomplish all paranormal phenomena. That's the same as saying that, since everything we do as humans is a physical phenomenon, then we can replicate all physical phemomena in existence. Does not follow at all.

Already addressed this on discord, Legion's corpses is affected by the Inverted castle as you can see them in the ceiling as opposed to the floor. Not only that but the candles which are affected are stated by Igarashi in an interview to be souls. So it's not merely affecting only the castle, it's affecting the residents inside of it.

Legion was already a part of the Castle, and so are the souls trapped inside of the candles, so they natually would be created in that inverted state alongside everything else inside of it. It still doesn't prove the Inverted Castle instantly inverts anyone who enters it.

Actually it does happen in the real world given the magic books can do just that. So no, it's not limited to the books they're in.

This is from Lords of Shadows, and not Grimoire of Souls, so it doesn't really address my points.

 

[Theglassman12]

What exactly about him having cosmic awareness remotely debunks the point that he's aware of alternate realities? Dracula's a being far beyond human comprehension with what he has given he has knowledge beyond what anyone at the time knows given what he can create in his castle, and the fact he has access to the passage of time as stated in his story mode, it's not a weird assumption that he's aware of alternate timelines given what his castle has.

It doesn't take into account parallel dimensions because they're all thrown in the same dimension to stop the time reaper, that's what it means given what happens to everyone in the story. Also Igarashi is wrong on Cornell being in the same universe as the others because the in game story mode contradicts this by giving him the same backstory as Legacy of Darkness, unless you have proof that Igarashi and the rest of Konami went back on their statements on the N64 games being non canon.

Scaling to the same stats sure, but the basic lore stuff that exists across the series cross scales easily. It's why we have every version of superman have the same normal kryptonian powers. Castlevania games are all in the same multiverse with the same lore, and again, Chaos exists in Lords of Shadow given the nature of dracula's powers and other statements of chaos existing inside certain beings, so the bare minimum chaos stuff can cross scale.

A sin isn't tangible at all, it's a mere idea/concept that exists in the world, and Death is that Sin itself as stated in the arcade.

Corporeal manifestation of death and are also spirits, AKA not physical objects anyone can't normally interact with.

It's not a contradiction for the scythe to be non-physical unless there's statements on the scythe having a physical form. It just means Soma's capable of interacting with a non-physical object, unless you wanna say ghosts being non-physical is contradicted by everyone hitting them. Also the fact that Death's true form is not physical whatsoever since he was able to move on out of his old body in the novels in spirit form as his body's meaningless for him to function.

Over the souls of monsters, which he loses them all after his fight with Chaos. It's not a contradiction for the event to happen there when again, Soma beats chaos, the source of all the monsters.

You haven't explained why this doesn't apply to those who's had their warped gravity kick in. And again, this happens to a being that's corrupted by the powers of chaos as that's Dracula's magic and the castle's magic. So anyone and everyone that becomes a creature of chaos would scale to this.

You're not understanding my point, all of them loses their body when Soma gains their souls, and in Dawn of Sorrow we literally see them back with their bodies, meaning they regenerated from their soul at bare minimum.

Chaos is God's opposite, that's stated numerous times in Dawn and Aria of Sorrow, and God made the universe. There wouldn't be a natural order to begin with if God can exist without the balance, which is a main plot point in Dawn of Sorrow.

The bosses are stated to be the core of the magic in the painting. Destroying them cut the painting's powers off from Brauner which is the entire goal of Portrait of Ruin. This applies to literally every single boss in the game, it's not something limited to very specific monsters.

No he isn't a part of the castle, he's an entire creature who's an amalgamation of corpses. Also by your logic why doesn't Death get inverted when he's stated to be a part of the castle? He's supposed to be a part of it and yet functions normally, so by your logic it should've flipped him over.

I did address this with the whole multiverse stuff.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I don't really understand how quotes like "don't take it too seriously" and stuff like that really mean something here ? Igarashi may be saying that to the fans just to make them stop asking questions and enjoy the game but that's not what we are doing here, if Cornell is there, then something happened and we know that for a fact because his games take place in an Alternate Timeline

I wanted to ask, what characters remember facing Cornell in the game ?

 

[Shmooply]

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[Ultima_Reality]

What exactly about him having cosmic awareness remotely debunks the point that he's aware of alternate realities? Dracula's a being far beyond human comprehension with what he has given he has knowledge beyond what anyone at the time knows given what he can create in his castle, and the fact he has access to the passage of time as stated in his story mode, it's not a weird assumption that he's aware of alternate timelines given what his castle has.

Not in the slightest what my point was. My point, to reiterate, is that Judgement Dracula specifically remembers having faced Cornell before, which is not really possible if the latter belongs to an different timeline from the rest of the cast.

It doesn't take into account parallel dimensions because they're all thrown in the same dimension to stop the time reaper, that's what it means given what happens to everyone in the story.

Not really the case, no. The fan asking the question asks how Cornell can appear in Judgement alongside the canon characters, and further questions if that's because he is just from a parallel universe instead of being outright non-canon. In the later post, he then asks if this suggested explanation was correct, and Igarashi replies that this isn't exactly the case. Cut to the rest of what I explained about that exchange.

Also Igarashi is wrong on Cornell being in the same universe as the others because the in game story mode contradicts this by giving him the same backstory as Legacy of Darkness, unless you have proof that Igarashi and the rest of Konami went back on their statements on the N64 games being non canon.

I don't need to prove that, because Igarashi himself already explained that Cornell only appears in Judgement because the game doesn't concern itself with the logistics of him being there. The whole thing is just meant to be fanservice and something you should consume with your brain turned off. There is no in-universe explanation here, which you can see by the "he has simply been chosen because he’s a character that pervades the series. I don't know if that's the kind of answer you were looking for, but that's about the size of it."

Scaling to the same stats sure, but the basic lore stuff that exists across the series cross scales easily. It's why we have every version of superman have the same normal kryptonian powers. Castlevania games are all in the same multiverse with the same lore, and again, Chaos exists in Lords of Shadow given the nature of dracula's powers and other statements of chaos existing inside certain beings, so the bare minimum chaos stuff can cross scale.

I suppose that's fine. Unless there are glaring contradictions here. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one.

A sin isn't tangible at all, it's a mere idea/concept that exists in the world, and Death is that Sin itself as stated in the arcade.

Doesn't mean anything. Reminder that a Type 2 Abstract can still have a close enough relationship to the abstraction that it embodies to be referred to as being it. The ability itself isn't just for characters who have a connection with a concept.

Corporeal manifestation of death and are also spirits, AKA not physical objects anyone can't normally interact with.

That whole argument already has a massive dent on it for the sole fact that they're referred to as being corporeal, which by definition implies they're physical.

It's not a contradiction for the scythe to be non-physical unless there's statements on the scythe having a physical form. It just means Soma's capable of interacting with a non-physical object, unless you wanna say ghosts being non-physical is contradicted by everyone hitting them.

That seems fairly unlikely considering that, again, the game goes out of its way to highlight Death's intangibility with a visual indicator (e.g Him being translucent), which it does not do for the scythe. Furthermore, as I said in the point you neglected to answer, the "did not physically exist" in the novel seemed to refer to the small scythes that Death tends to manifest through his magic, which shouldn't really impact on the matter of his physiology at all.

Also the fact that Death's true form is not physical whatsoever since he was able to move on out of his old body in the novels in spirit form as his body's meaningless for him to function.

I mean, yeah, that's just his soul. All monsters have them.

Over the souls of monsters, which he loses them all after his fight with Chaos. It's not a contradiction for the event to happen there when again, Soma beats chaos, the source of all the monsters.

Irrelevant to my point. The novel fairly directly says that Soma erased Death using the power of dominance. Trying to stretch that into "Actually, it's saying Death ceased to exist because Soma beat Chaos" is something that has no backing.

You haven't explained why this doesn't apply to those who's had their warped gravity kick in.

I don't understand this point.

And again, this happens to a being that's corrupted by the powers of chaos as that's Dracula's magic and the castle's magic. So anyone and everyone that becomes a creature of chaos would scale to this.

Why would Castlevania's influence have the exact same effect on everyone mutated by it? That's something for you to prove.

Now, correct me if I am wrong, but from a quick Google search, it seems like this characteristic of the Navigators is, in fact, treated as something particular to them, so much so that, once they died out, the power to instantly move from one part of the Castle to another that they provided was forgotten:

Your father used the power of the Navigators to move swiftly between different areas of the castle. When they died, its power was forgotten in time.

You're not understanding my point, all of them loses their body when Soma gains their souls, and in Dawn of Sorrow we literally see them back with their bodies, meaning they regenerated from their soul at bare minimum.

That's resurrection, and not regeneration, and even then, this not really a good support for your argument because the logic behind it is that members of Dracula's legions naturally reside in the Abyss as spirits, return there once they are killed, and can be summoned back from there as many times as needed through magic. It's not something they inherently have, so much as it is someone else resurrecting them. The one time this was actively exploited was in Dawn of Sorrow, where the With Light cult opened several gates to the Abyss near the sites where you fight the boss monsters, which allowed them to freely return to the physical world once you defeated them for as long as the portals remained open. An exception, not the rule.

You also haven't really provided any reason as to why this process applies to all Vampires. Dracula's armies always return alongside him because they are a part of him, much like Castlevania itself is. And so, once he returns, so do they. Not all Vampires are members of the legions of Chaos, however.

Chaos is God's opposite, that's stated numerous times in Dawn and Aria of Sorrow, and God made the universe. There wouldn't be a natural order to begin with if God can exist without the balance, which is a main plot point in Dawn of Sorrow.

God can exist without Chaos to contrast him. It's just that, without the latter, his goodness is meaningless.

The bosses are stated to be the core of the magic in the painting. Destroying them cut the painting's powers off from Brauner which is the entire goal of Portrait of Ruin. This applies to literally every single boss in the game, it's not something limited to very specific monsters.

Yeah. They're just there to act as centerpoints for the drained power. Their existence has no impact on the structure of the paintings themselves.

No he isn't a part of the castle, he's an entire creature who's an amalgamation of corpses. Also by your logic why doesn't Death get inverted when he's stated to be a part of the castle? He's supposed to be a part of it and yet functions normally, so by your logic it should've flipped him over.

The castle's architecture, I mean. My point is that only things that were already a part of the scenery were flipped over, and nothing else. Death is part of the Castle in the more metaphysical sense, in that his existence stems from Dracula's power, and is therefore connected to its physical manifestation.

I did address this with the whole multiverse stuff

Still different showings. What's in Grimoire of Souls is one thing, and what's in Lords of Shadows is another. You can't exactly treat them as the exact same when the scales in which they operate are demonstrably different.

 

[Shmooply]

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[ItalianGuy1234]

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[Shmooply]

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[XXKINGXX69]

For Lifting Strength, the 4-A characters will upscale from the Twinkle Rod's ability to pull down a star from orbit, granting them all Stellar level Lifting Strength

Why does scale to every single 4-A character? And we clearly see that the star is tiny as hell. It can just be lowering its size to that level or the stars are really that small and its fodder

 

[Theglassman12]

@XXKINGXX69 that doesn't change the lore explanation of a star being taken from orbit. Also it's game mechanics to argue the star is tiny as hell in lore when the lore explains the entire gimmick of the ID is to have star like motifs and be one with the stars.

@Ultima_Reality First off Dracula and Cornell never fought each other in their respective story modes, second Drac has access to Chaos who exists across the entire verse, considering Cornell is a part of Chaos him knowing a creature that's a part of the being he has access to isn't a stretch. Again not really proven in the game when the game sticks to Cornell's original backstory instead of giving him a new one to prove he is in the main timeline. There is an in-universe explanation. Aeon; a time watcher that's a part of Saint Germain's group, gathers all the warriors across the series to aid him.

You do realize we have several statements of embodiment for lower tier monsters right? If Death was just an embodiment they would've mentioned that in any of his bestiary logs.

They're not physical, they're shown to be literal spirits. Also the corporeal part is to explain how they represent death itself, not them having a literal physical body.

Those small scythes soma and anyone else can affect, which doesn't debunk it lacking a physical form, it's just more NPI for them.

No monster has the ability to shed their physical body as they don't need it to the extent that Death has. He can do anything without a body as that's his true form, so yeah he can exist in a non physical state and interact with the world as he sees fit.

He used the power of dominance against chaos to retrieve the souls when he fights Chaos, are we gonna ignoring that part? And again chaos is the source of them all so them being erased there makes more sense as he's using his powers against chaos.

The warped gravity, you haven't tackled my point on this as that's one of the traits of the navigators being affected by dracula's magic.

The castle always has done the same effect, look at every single soul or every single monster that has the statements of being warped the castle's magic and having the same results of being transmuted, being trapped in the castle, etc.

The powers of the navigators were gifted to them by the results of dracula's magic, and their powers being forgotten in time was because Dracula was in a coma for a long time with no chance for his powers to rise until Alucard's plan to bring him back came to fruition. Alucard due to his long time of mastering the ins and outs of the castle can bring the navigators back to form.

Resurrection doesn't automatically grant you the ability to reform your entire body when it doesn't exist. That "someone else" is the powers of darkness/chaos, something they all have. Also wrong the gates aren't doors that let them come back, it's literally just to give them more darkness/chaos powers, as them being exposed to it makes them invincible as they constantly regenerate, as stated by Julius. Since when are any of the creatures of the night not a part of chaos? You do realize that Dracula got his powers because of Walter right? Who existed prior to Dracula being a thing? Same with the medusa, the succubus, golem, etc? The novels states that they're all aspects of chaos, even those that don't remotely align themselves with Dracula like Olrox.

And Alucard agrees with Celia that there would need to exist the evil to maintain the balance.

They are the centerpoint of the paintings as Charlotte mentioned destroying the painting itself wouldn't work, and the only way you can affect the painting is to destroy the monster who's controlling the painting's power. Hence why they enter the paintings and fight the bosses. Not only that but she has to align her magic with the quantum space barriers to enter them, that's something every single person that's adept with magic can do, as shown with the Lecardes doing the same thing.

You do realize the castle is not a normal architecture right? Also death doesn't need to rely on Dracula's existence to live as he not only was there prior to Mathias being Drac, but also can exist just fine when Soma was not the dark lord and the castle was still sealed away.

It being different showings is irrelevant as your base argument is: "As for the Plot Manipulation itself: The only time this has ever been demonstrated is when it altered Grimoires" This is completely wrong as they have effects outside of the grimoires, the magic books being a prime example of them working outside of the Grimoires.

 

[Shmooply]

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[DarkDragonMedeus]

I still agree more with what Glass is saying

 

[XXKINGXX69]

@XXKINGXX69 that doesn't change the lore explanation of a star being taken from orbit. Also it's game mechanics to argue the star is tiny as hell in lore when the lore explains the entire gimmick of the ID is to have star like motifs and be one with the stars.

Why is the visual a game mechanic? There's an animation of it, it should be part of the lore

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Why is the visual a game mechanic? There's an animation of it, it should be part of the lore

There is an animation for pretty much everything in the game, that doesn't tell us much

 

[XXKINGXX69]

There is an animation for pretty much everything in the game, that doesn't tell us much

Yeah, so those are canon too

 

[KLOL506]

I still agree more with what Glass is saying

Same. I discussed the feats with him before hand. The star appearing small is nothing more than graphical limitations of the time-era of the game being made.

 

[Bobsican]

@Bobsican Creating an entire universe would have to involve making an entire axis of time as well. Last time I checked that was accepted to be the bare minimum with creating universes.

there is an abyss in Lords of Shadow, they make it pretty clear it exists.

great job on ignoring my point, they’re two alternate worlds with their own different time flow. That’s the argument I’m making.

I'd reply to this but it seems Ultima covered my concerns on these areas better at this point, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyways, animation limitations for the star stuff isn't an argument, if they just were displayed like that in game but are actually of the size of proper stars it'd make no sense for them to be usable indoors (without considerable environmental consequences), let alone the AoE being larger than the planet and several other things that'd require way more assumptions.
So at best they're just very small stars, and so can't fit for tier 4. IIRC stars of that size are like tier 6.

 

[Stillwinston]

Following, agreeing with most of the stuff glad Aeon has that acasual stuff his story ending practically screamed it lol.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Yeah, so those are canon too

I hope you realize how absurd this claim is

Castlevania characters fall from a whole, go outside the screen and die, there is a very specific animation for this, is this canon ?

Any fodder night creature can kill the 2-C protagonists, regular castle traps can kill them, all have animation, are they canon ?

These examples can be found on Curse of Darkness and are obviously not canon, having an animation has nothing to do with canonicity, so let's not waste our time with this nonsense

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I also don't think graphical limitations is a valid argument here. Maybe if we see an updated version of the spell where they don't look like kiddy stars with faces like the summon does I'll actually call it a valid feat but there's so much against it that "graphical limitations" just sounds like a lazy excuse imo.

Actual stars no doubt exist in the verse, I'm not doubting that, but for this particular spell I'm doubting the validity of those "stars" as everything is working against them.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Bobsican tell that to literally every single JRPG ever that has spells that have over the top effects even indoors. It happening indoors doesn't debunk the ability existing. And there it is, the AOE fallacy, try something better since by this logic Dragon Ball characters don't go near planetary or above because they don't destroy that much area. Also congratulations you completely miss the point of what the twinkle star feat is used at all. It's used for speed and lifting strength, not actual AP since no one in the pages that we're revising is remotely being scaled to 4-C. So pay attention next time.

@Foxthefox1000 so your entire argument is that it looks kiddy... Ok, what the **** does that have anything to do with the lore of the twinkle Rod? Can you remotely elaborate how it having kiddy faces remotely debunks this at all? Because the lore of the abilities and the monsters take precedence when its the creators literally explaining how their abilities work.

Oh yeah, EVERYTHING is going against the star feat, the description of the Twinkle Rod where they want to become one with the stars, the in game description on how they take a star from orbit and drop it onto the foes, star motifs out the ass for the ID, yeah that's apparently anti-feats for the star feat. Actually try to argue and stop being vague for once since I have numerous examples to pull and scans in my own blog about the Twinkle Rod.

 

[Bobsican]

Yeah, and we just dismiss those as just fancy effects unless there's enought elaboration on it, which doesn't appear here. AoE fallacy would be valid here if it was clarified that those were legitimate stars (stars don't exactly "orbit" to begin with, planets are the ones that orbit around them, and for a series with a quite serious tone and aestetic, cartoonish stars of this sort can't be taken seriously) and were shrinked while retaining the same mass, which isn't the case either. And while it isn't being used for AP as everyone relevant scales to higher stuff and all, LS is still a physical stat, and in fact would require more justification than AP, as we don't give LS to characters by holding back an attack per site standards, we scale that to Durability instead.
If we were to claim that they're from space and are no different from "normal" stars beyond size, then one could still use them to scale to speed I suppose, if anyone can react to them to begin with of course, we don't just upscale every stat from fodder to a top tier just because they're "easy" to defeat and all.

 

[KLOL506]

as we don't give LS to characters by holding back an attack per site standards, we scale that to Durability instead.

Just a clarification, this depends heavily on context and was deemed to have been accepted that it should be done on a case-by-case basis. I was there when this was being discussed.

It depends on what the mass of the attacking object is. If it's human sized without the character having any LS value to work with, then it doesn't work. But if it's way larger like say a car, then you can work on the f=ma formula assuming there is a timeframe to latch onto in the first place. Or say, Character A has X LS and Character B stops punch from Character A and then visibly struggles and wrestles against Character A's arm pushing it further forwards. In that case, scaling Character B to Character A's LS absolutely works (Of course, it should be noted that Character A should have their own lifting strength feat first to begin with).

 

[Bobsican]

The star is human sized, so uh...

 

[KLOL506]

The star is human sized, so uh...

Isn't Castlevania's star situation a bit different based on what Glass just explained?

You wouldn't actually expect actual stars larger than our sun to just pop up on the screen and crash the game now, would you?

 

[Bobsican]

While there's several implications related to stars and all, most notably with them coming out of orbit, they still don't behave like stars, heat clearly isn't a factor in its portrayal, and neither is the size. At best we'd have to accomodate for its mass based on its size, rather than default for no good reason that it's as dense as the sun.
Plus IDK how it'd scale to LS to begin with, it doesn't seem it's physically pulled, but telekinetically, so even more of an argument would have to be made if it's based on pure scaling.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Im pretty sure stellar LS comes from pulling stars from orbit, not necessarily tanking them. But helps in consistency

 

[Bobsican]

Plus IDK how it'd scale to LS to begin with, it doesn't seem it's physically pulled, but telekinetically, so even more of an argument would have to be made if it's based on pure scaling.

Because of the above it seems it'd just be only with telekinesis unless this can be related to physical LS.

Also, for a "proper" sun, one would just make the screen flash white and just act as a screen wipe move or something among these lines, it isn't hardware exhaustive by far, in fact going with the cartoony portrayal takes way more effort : V

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

UES is applicable to Castlevania from what I see via magic. So i am pretty sure physical stats would scale.

 

[Bobsican]

UES? Universal Energy System? If so, then I guess it's fine, if everyone else is fine with them being "legitimate" stars in every single way for these purposes.

 

[Hellbeast]

Wait did UES guidelines get accepted officially now