Flickering the Lights in Glass' House (Castlevania Downgrades, 1/???)

[Armorchompy]

Resistance to Ice Manipulation & Absolute Zero

• 𝔒𝔓 argues that a Werewolf (In one of the scans used for AZ) being one-shot by said ice magic disproves the idea of a blanket resistance, and that a couple characters using AZ magic is not enough to claim all ice magic in the series operates at AZ levels.
• 𝔒𝔭𝔭𝔬𝔰𝔦𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 counters that the Werewolf is just fodder, with top-tiers like Death and Carmilla being able to withstand such attacks, and points to Richter mocking the AZ magic as evidence it’s common.
• 𝔒𝔓 rebuts that this only supports the idea that the AZ resistance should be specific to those who’ve directly tanked it and that Richter’s comment can just be dismissed as teasing a fellow Vampire Hunter.
• 𝔒𝔭𝔭𝔬𝔰𝔦𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 responds by noting that the fodder don't have profiles and that items like the "Absolute Zero Ring" confirm the connection between ice magic and AZ.

Hm, Richter doesn't necessarily seem impressed with their methods but I wouldn't take it as "their means of attack specifically are weak". On the other hand, if these guys aren't particularly strong it'd make sense if superior ice users could match it, I'd generally assume temperature = power in cases like that. So I wouldn't mind keeping this one.

Immortality & Regeneration Negation

• 𝔒𝔓 point outs that Lucy's statement about not being able to destroy monsters is due to her lack of brute strength rather than immortality negation, and that creatures of chaos shouldn’t scale to exorcists who specialize in anti-chaos magic in the first place.
• 𝔒𝔭𝔭𝔬𝔰𝔦𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 counters by pointing out that creatures of chaos can kill each other (𝚂𝙲𝙰𝙽 𝙿𝙴𝙽𝙳𝙸𝙽𝙶) and disputes the idea that Lucy’s statement refers to brute strength.
• 𝔒𝔓 challenges the validity of the "monsters can kill each other" claim, arguing that the monsters respawning suggests they aren’t truly killed.
• 𝔒𝔭𝔭𝔬𝔰𝔦𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 responds by explaining that the monsters "respawning" is due to their sheer numbers rather than their immortality.

Monsters respawning is definitely just numbers but I don't think the evidence is very strong to begin with, the "destroying dark ones" stuff is hardly specifically regarding their resurrection and the Red Skeleton is one single enemy with a unique ability to rebuild itself, which almost every game's bestiary points out. Not really something I'd use to argue about every other monster.

On the other hand, if CoCs are capable of resurrections, and they can also negate that, then I don't see the point of the arguing. Just get decent proof of that and you don't need all this very indirect arguing.

Life Manipulation
𝔒𝔓 argues that the scan is misinterpreted, with “lose their life” simply meaning “die” in this context.
This has no push-back, but 𝔒𝔭𝔭𝔬𝔰𝔦𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 notes that the cast have other ways of resisting life manip.

Scans would be nice, if they aren't already on profiles, in which case no issue.

Paralysis Inducement
𝔒𝔓 argues that the passage’s use of "petrified" is metaphorical, especially since the character easily moves immediately afterwards.
𝔒𝔭𝔭𝔬𝔰𝔦𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 maintains that it's literal paralysis caused by Death’s magic, as the passage mentions the air being filled with his magic.

Yeah I wouldn't take this literally.

Resistance to Immortality Negation
𝔒𝔓 argues that Death does die, repeatedly even, but returns due to external factors like Dracula's resurrection and such, while 𝔒𝔭𝔭𝔬𝔰𝔦𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 asserts that Death can’t be permanently killed, as he comes back even when you kill him with the Vampire Killer (The holy magic in the franchise, and I relegated to mention this, but holy magic is the only thing that can negate a Red Skeleton's immortality).

If the Vampire Killer negs resurrection (I wouldn't know either way, but that doesn't seem to be in contention) and Death is killed by it and comes back (which happens in like, 20 different games), then that's Resistance to Immortality Negation, no? Don't see a reason to argue about conceptuality and stuff.

Non-Physical Interaction

• Elemental
  • 𝔒𝔓 argues that elemental intangibility doesn’t apply to slimes, as "gel" is not non-physical and can be interacted with like any other material.
  • 𝔒𝔭𝔭𝔬𝔰𝔦𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 pushes back, claiming that slimes are portrayed as intangible in fiction.
  • 𝔒𝔓 responds that slimes being intangible in other fictional works is irrelevant unless it can be proven that slimes in Castlevania are intangible. 𝔒𝔓 further asserts that most RPGs portray slimes as physical entities that can be damaged with ordinary weapons.
  • 𝔒𝔭𝔭𝔬𝔰𝔦𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 argues that RPGs where you hit slimes aren’t relevant, as those same games also let you hit ghosts.

Slimes are not universally portrayed as intangible (not even commonly, in my experience) and even if they were you'd still need to prove they are here. You'd need to even with literal ghosts as far as I'm concerned, plenty of fiction where those are tangible.

Aren't there living flame enemies in a few Castlevanias? That'd be a better avenue.

• Phasing
  • 𝔒𝔓 argues that the phasing ability in question only works on specific walls, so interacting with these characters shouldn't grant NPI.
  • 𝔒𝔭𝔭𝔬𝔰𝔦𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 points out that Shanoa (I think?) killed someone even while he was phasing through a wall with her glyph magic.
  • 𝔒𝔓 counters that Shanoa only did so by absorbing his powers rather than directly interacting with him (Basically arguing that Power Absorption of this type doesn’t require NPI to affect intangible beings).
  • 𝔒𝔭𝔭𝔬𝔰𝔦𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 asserts that Shanoa still did interact with the guy's essence, even the part that's inside the wall.

This is NPI, but not by interacting with the phasing, just because it's absorbing people's essence (what is that, souls? concept? i don't remember if they say in Ecclesia). I wouldn't assume the guy's soul becomes "more intangible" when that spell is used, it's already going to phase through walls by default and Shanoa can interact with it anyways.

• Nonexistent
  • 𝔒𝔓 argues that the Navigators are never fought, nor are they interacted with in a way that constitutes NPI.
  • 𝔒𝔭𝔭𝔬𝔰𝔦𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 counters that Dracula's and Alucard's magic can interact with Navigators, whose nonexistence is the result of the castle's influence, and that common ghosts, also affected by the same influence, can be harmed directly.
  • 𝔒𝔓 asserts that Alucard reviving the Navigators by reversing time isn’t NPI and disputes the idea that common ghosts share the same qualities as Navigators, as the Navigators are the only ones whose powers were forgotten when they died.
  • 𝔒𝔭𝔭𝔬𝔰𝔦𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 maintains that Alucard's magic had to directly interact with the Navigators to restore them and that their nonexistent state is due to them succumbing to the magic of Dracula's castle, which applies to all ghosts.

Not convinced by "succumbing to Dracula's magic and turning into a spirit" = "all spirits in the castle are the same", Castlevania's bestiaries are full of variations of basically every critter and even just peeking at the Ghost category on the wiki brings up over 30 pages (probably this isn't fully accurate, but you get my point), who I have no doubt don't share all of their abilities. As for the rest... I dunno, it's really just a question of "does rewinding time around a non-existing creature need to affect it to rewind it too?" No clue if it does, that's just site standards.

 

[Theglassman12]

Alrighty then, somewhat free for the time being so I'll try to respond to the points.

@Armorchompy The blood argument is that dracula's own blood is also a manifestation of his magic, especially in Lords of Shadow 2 where it manifests as his own dark side that is the castle itself trying to make him stay in the place. If this advance technology exposed to Dracula's own magic gets shut down immediately, then it's more proof that something like Dracula's magic can affect other forms of technology that isn't just visual based like the opposition suggested.

You can argue that to be somewhat gameplay limitations for the smoke stuff given how the entire point of the monster is that it cannot be seen normally, but that is the intent from the lore.

It's not just seeing through an illusion, with Alucard especially he's casted into a dream despite being wide awake and broke out of it both in SOTN and in the drama CD, somewhat similar to how Leon gets away to see through the illusions of the Succubus.

Except for the folklore with Incubus and Vampires, the ones most known for needing to consume blood, Magnus isn't remotely phased by the need for blood and he addresses "us" as in the monsters everyone fights in terms of not needing any blood or sustenance to live, and that killing humans is more entertainment than it is a necessity.

My point with the Absolute Zero wasn't that it was "weak", moreso that it's not as rare as it seems, because these two hunters are relatively green in the business, and when Richter sees what they do against a random werewolf, he's not at all impressed by what they have and implies that it's something really common for any hunter, which would imply the ice magic any of the noteworthy hunters have in the series have some merit to being on similar temperatures. The AZ ring and the frost demon being able to control absolute cold is more proof on how this seems to be something not as rare as it might look.

Yeah the red skeletons are used because they're very blatant examples from gameplay alone where the monsters normally resurrect but some specific powers are able to permanently end them, plus this immortality extends to all creatures of chaos because that's their entire gimmick that they answer to the chaos inside of humanity and would come back to life. Hell the vampire killer itself was feared by Olrox in the novel and when he realized one of the hunters didn't even have it, he calmed down a bit knowing it's not the holy weapon that has the highest chance to kill him for good.

The life resistance is in the profiles but it's from the general resistance of magic, which can affect life itself in other ways.

Ghosts in Castlevania are intangible given they always go through walls and floors to chase you down so this isn't really something that's a problem for this series. In Dracula's curse there are literal flame monsters that come out of candle flames and you can harm and kill them directly, so yeah they do exist.

If you mean the Glyphs then yeah, they are the essense of magic that all things in existence have, they're not directly called souls but with the lore of the series you can argue it.

I'm talking about the normal ghosts in the series that are literally apart of the castle itself, their fundamental existence is tied to the castle and they've lost everything, very akin to the Navigators as they also are a part of the castle itself and exists in numerous planes.

 

[Armorchompy]

Alrighty then, somewhat free for the time being so I'll try to respond to the points.

@Armorchompy The blood argument is that dracula's own blood is also a manifestation of his magic, especially in Lords of Shadow 2 where it manifests as his own dark side that is the castle itself trying to make him stay in the place. If this advance technology exposed to Dracula's own magic gets shut down immediately, then it's more proof that something like Dracula's magic can affect other forms of technology that isn't just visual based like the opposition suggested.

So like, first off I'm not convinced the blood thing here is tech manip to begin with, the object is hardly technological and seems to just be torn apart rather than hacked or anything. And again, the mechanics are just different, "Dracula's magic can affect various kinds of technology" is a different claim from "Dracula's magic passively affects various kinds of technology", and this doesn't serve the latter.

You can argue that to be somewhat gameplay limitations for the smoke stuff given how the entire point of the monster is that it cannot be seen normally, but that is the intent from the lore.

I would hardly consider a single line of description "lore", or glean much from its intent. Either way though I see the point.

It's not just seeing through an illusion, with Alucard especially he's casted into a dream despite being wide awake and broke out of it both in SOTN and in the drama CD, somewhat similar to how Leon gets away to see through the illusions of the Succubus.

If it's done while he's awake, that's not "being cast into a dream", it's just falling victim to an illusion (although given the trope of vampires sleeping in coffins and that you need to step into a save point to fall fictim to her, one could argue that Alucard is sleeping when she catches him).

As far as the game goes I also just wouldn't say he breaks out of it, he just kills her ass and that makes the magic effect fade.

Except for the folklore with Incubus and Vampires, the ones most known for needing to consume blood, Magnus isn't remotely phased by the need for blood and he addresses "us" as in the monsters everyone fights in terms of not needing any blood or sustenance to live, and that killing humans is more entertainment than it is a necessity.

Vampires sure, that is literally not a thing for incubi/succubi. Usually they feed on uh, different fluids. I don't deny that's Magnus' intention but that still doesn't mean they don't need other kinds of sustainment, and I don't think you've proved that they don't. At most I can see the ability just for vampires. Even then, Alucard literally eats normal food, so I wouldn't assume that normal vampires don't too.

My point with the Absolute Zero wasn't that it was "weak", moreso that it's not as rare as it seems, because these two hunters are relatively green in the business, and when Richter sees what they do against a random werewolf, he's not at all impressed by what they have and implies that it's something really common for any hunter, which would imply the ice magic any of the noteworthy hunters have in the series have some merit to being on similar temperatures. The AZ ring and the frost demon being able to control absolute cold is more proof on how this seems to be something not as rare as it might look.

Sure, I'd agree with that.

Yeah the red skeletons are used because they're very blatant examples from gameplay alone where the monsters normally resurrect but some specific powers are able to permanently end them, plus this immortality extends to all creatures of chaos because that's their entire gimmick that they answer to the chaos inside of humanity and would come back to life. Hell the vampire killer itself was feared by Olrox in the novel and when he realized one of the hunters didn't even have it, he calmed down a bit knowing it's not the holy weapon that has the highest chance to kill him for good.

No, the Red Skeletons' immortality is definitely unique, there wouldn't be a reason for bestiaries (which you yourself described as canonical "lore") to single them out as "the one that regenerates" if every other one could do that too. But if there's unrelated lore for blanket immortality, sure.

On the other hand, you are making a lot of claims and posting zero scans. That doesn't exactly win your arguments much favor, I don't have context for what you're talking about.

The life resistance is in the profiles but it's from the general resistance of magic, which can affect life itself in other ways.

It's outside of the thread's purview so I'm not going to look at it, sure.

Ghosts in Castlevania are intangible given they always go through walls and floors to chase you down so this isn't really something that's a problem for this series. In Dracula's curse there are literal flame monsters that come out of candle flames and you can harm and kill them directly, so yeah they do exist.

Ghosts, yeah, but I was making an example. But yeah I'd just switch the NPI justification to stuff like that, fire/water/air creatures rather than slimes.

If you mean the Glyphs then yeah, they are the essense of magic that all things in existence have, they're not directly called souls but with the lore of the series you can argue it.

Yeah I mean, whatever they are my point is Shanoa's ability to absorb them bypasses Phasing Invulnerability because it targets something that's always intangible, I wouldn't extend that to be a property of all her attacks.

I'm talking about the normal ghosts in the series that are literally apart of the castle itself, their fundamental existence is tied to the castle and they've lost everything, very akin to the Navigators as they also are a part of the castle itself and exists in numerous planes.

I would require proof of that.

 

[Theglassman12]

Magnus' abiility flat out said he's manipulating dreams and Alucard broke out of it, as for the SOTN thing, it's not just implied, he flat out IS in the dream world. Alucard mentions that right after he beats her and said "death in the dream world will leave your soul wandering for eternity", so yeah he is confirmed to be sleeping there.

The same Alucard also slept for hundreds of years straight with no sustenance, he only woke up during SOTN because he sensed something was wrong when Richter vanished, and he was gone after the events of Dracula's Curse to go into an eternal slumber. Food is just typical RPG stuff for healing despite the fact Alucard can sleep for centuries on end without eating.

Olrox in the novel sensed one of the hunter's holy power from the whip but realized it's not on the same level as the vampire killer. He's not a red skeleton but he still can come back even when his body is completely destroyed as shown when he's back in the novels despite dying to Alucard, and when Death kills him he said he'll come back. Multiple times in the novel they flat out describe creatures of chaos as immortal beings who would come back from the answer of humanity's chaos within them, Death being one of them and his body has been destroyed numerous times in the past and he always comes back, same with Dracula and several other high tier monsters in the series. Plus the fact that Lucy mentions she lacks the natural talent for destroying dark ones already implies that you need the innate ability to kill them. Lucy is also the same person who can cast Aurora to drain and nullify the powers of others, including creatures of chaos, but she needed the help of Alucard and all of the warriors across the timeline to remotely defeat him. Even with the red skeletons and red armor you have weapons like the Undead Killer (which is a holy weapon in game) used to destroy and permanently kill these monsters, and even creatures of chaos has access to holy magic that is designed to kill these creatures, plus again creatures of chaos that are normal summons in the franchise can fight and kill these monsters too.

Fine by me with the elemental stuff.

Why would it not when it's literally the most basic application of Glyph magic in the game? This isn't her doing a very very specific move that's different from everything else, this is Shanoa just doing the most basic application of Glyph magic.

Olrox's castle, which tries to replicate the effects of the original castle is comprised of the dead with even one's soul being binded to the castle, further backed up by practically every single soul lore where their existence is doomed to be a part of the castle for eternity and they even come out of the castle's interior when they try to attack you, similar to how the Navigators succumbed to the castle's magic and lost all traces of their existence and are a part of the castle. There's also some developer interviews from Igarashi (can't find the exact scan on me) where he said that all of the times you break things in the castle, you're essentially freeing the souls that are binded into the castle's existence and they give you items as aid for a reward.

 

[Armorchompy]

Magnus' abiility flat out said he's manipulating dreams and Alucard broke out of it, as for the SOTN thing, it's not just implied, he flat out IS in the dream world. Alucard mentions that right after he beats her and said "death in the dream world will leave your soul wandering for eternity", so yeah he is confirmed to be sleeping there.

Alright, I'm fine with this half of the debate then. What's the feat for the Belmonts resisting this?

The same Alucard also slept for hundreds of years straight with no sustenance, he only woke up during SOTN because he sensed something was wrong when Richter vanished, and he was gone after the events of Dracula's Curse to go into an eternal slumber. Food is just typical RPG stuff for healing despite the fact Alucard can sleep for centuries on end without eating.

Eh, hibernation isn't the same as actively moving about without issue. But it is still a fair thing to bring up, I dunno.

He's not a red skeleton but he still can come back even when his body is completely destroyed as shown when he's back in the novels despite dying to Alucard, and when Death kills him he said he'll come back. Multiple times in the novel they flat out describe creatures of chaos as immortal beings who would come back from the answer of humanity's chaos within them, Death being one of them and his body has been destroyed numerous times in the past and he always comes back, same with Dracula and several other high tier monsters in the series.

Sure, that seems fine to me.

Plus the fact that Lucy mentions she lacks the natural talent for destroying dark ones already implies that you need the innate ability to kill them.

Eh, "destroying" doesn't really imply that, could just mean she's not strong enough. But this is secondary, I don't need further proof of them resurrecting.

Lucy is also the same person who can cast Aurora to drain and nullify the powers of others, including creatures of chaos, but she needed the help of Alucard and all of the warriors across the timeline to remotely defeat him.

Those same warriors never really perma-killed him to begin with, I don't see why this is relevant regarding their ability to do so.

Even with the red skeletons and red armor you have weapons like the Undead Killer (which is a holy weapon in game) used to destroy and permanently kill these monsters, and even creatures of chaos has access to holy magic that is designed to kill these creatures, plus again creatures of chaos that are normal summons in the franchise can fight and kill these monsters too.

I assume the logic is "Vampire Killer > Undead Killer, so it too must be able to permakill CoCs"? I disagree with that, unless it also kills regenerating creatures in-game or has other feats of immortality negation of its own (it definitely has a lot of feats of not doing that...). Could just be a unique ability of the UK, rather than something directly related to its holy power.

(Admittedly, characters like Death & Dracula would probably get the resistance anyways if you can use the Holy Killer to defeat them)

Why would it not when it's literally the most basic application of Glyph magic in the game? This isn't her doing a very very specific move that's different from everything else, this is Shanoa just doing the most basic application of Glyph magic.

Because it's not just "a basic application", it's "the one application that affects glyphs". Like you're assuming there's a universal property here, rather than the spell being specifically meant to do that, even though there's literally no evidence of it.

Olrox's castle, which tries to replicate the effects of the original castle is comprised of the dead with even one's soul being binded to the castle, further backed up by practically every single soul lore where their existence is doomed to be a part of the castle for eternity and they even come out of the castle's interior when they try to attack you, similar to how the Navigators succumbed to the castle's magic and lost all traces of their existence and are a part of the castle. There's also some developer interviews from Igarashi (can't find the exact scan on me) where he said that all of the times you break things in the castle, you're essentially freeing the souls that are binded into the castle's existence and they give you items as aid for a reward.

Yeah but all you're proving here is that the various spirits in DC are trapped in it forever, which I don't question but that doesn't mean they all undergo the stuff the Navigator (which re-reading its entry seems to be one individual multiplied, rather than a reoccurring case) did.

 

[Theglassman12]

Mostly from being able to use dark magic without suffering from its ill effects, which involves inducing constant nightmares from the users, that's the main one for the dream resistance, the succubus with Leon is a secondary thing when he does something similar with Alucard with being able to see through the guise and breaking the spell as a result.

A normal hibernation doesn't involve sleeping for literal hundreds of years, there's a big difference between what Alucard did between Dracula's Curse and SOTN and what a normal bear does to survive the winter.

She flat out describes it as a natural talent, not something that involves brute force. Otherwise they would've explained that she just needed to be strong enough to kill these monsters, which even then you already accepted that creatures of chaos are immortal in the earlier post so why would this not grant immortality negation if you need the natural talent to kill these monsters that are stated to be immortal numerous times?

Those warriors still stand a chance against him and Lucy specifically knows how to drain and separate one's power. Despite being able to know that kind of spell she still says she lacks the natural talent for actually killing these monsters, implying that strength isn't enough and that she's inspired by these hunters who do have the power. Hell Shanoa even comments that her power of the glyphs is what allows her to kill creatures of chaos.

The vampire killer is THE HOLY WEAPON in the series. It permanently killed Joachim in its weaker state before it got amped by Sara's soul to become the vampire killer and Olrox, the guy who can come back from the dead feared a hunter who had a holy whip because he thought it was the vampire killer, why would he be scared of the vampire killer if it couldn't kill him? As for other regenerating creatures, Christopher with the vampire killer and other holy weapons can kill mud man who are described to have regenerative properties.

It literally is a basic application when it's like the first thing she learns about Glyphs and it's most basic thing with how all things in existence have some essence of magic and she ripped the guy's essence apart despite him phasing through the wall.

Both the navigators and the ghosts are subservient to the castle and literally become a part of the castle. The Navigators is literally done by being exposed to Dracula's magic, same with almost every other fodder tier monster who's lore is that they're under the influence of the castle's magic.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I pretty much fully agree with Armor here.

 

[Armorchompy]

Mostly from being able to use dark magic without suffering from its ill effects, which involves inducing constant nightmares from the users, that's the main one for the dream resistance, the succubus with Leon is a secondary thing when he does something similar with Alucard with being able to see through the guise and breaking the spell as a result.

Hold on I don't think I've seen much about the non-succubus half of that argument, could you give me a summary?

That said I really don't think Alucard is shown to be resisting the Succubus' ability there, it just kills her and therefore ends the effect.

A normal hibernation doesn't involve sleeping for literal hundreds of years, there's a big difference between what Alucard did between Dracula's Curse and SOTN and what a normal bear does to survive the winter.

Yeah, that's why I was unsure. Tentatively I'll ok the ability for vampires at least.

She flat out describes it as a natural talent, not something that involves brute force. Otherwise they would've explained that she just needed to be strong enough to kill these monsters, which even then you already accepted that creatures of chaos are immortal in the earlier post so why would this not grant immortality negation if you need the natural talent to kill these monsters that are stated to be immortal numerous times?

Sheer (magical) power can absolutely be a question of talent? I don't see what the issue is. "Kill" isn't "Permanently kill" either, you're gleaning a lot from an ambiguous statement.

Those warriors still stand a chance against him and Lucy specifically knows how to drain and separate one's power. Despite being able to know that kind of spell she still says she lacks the natural talent for actually killing these monsters, implying that strength isn't enough and that she's inspired by these hunters who do have the power. Hell Shanoa even comments that her power of the glyphs is what allows her to kill creatures of chaos.

No, it's what allows her to "defeat" them. Because it's literally what she uses to fight, she'd be basically defenseless without Glyphs. And the rest... Eh? You're admitting they can't negate his immortality and that they're recruited because of their ability to fight the monsters, not their ability to perma-kill them, and yet you argue that this is evidence that they can negate immortality? There's nothing here.

The vampire killer is THE HOLY WEAPON in the series. It permanently killed Joachim in its weaker state before it got amped by Sara's soul to become the vampire killer and Olrox, the guy who can come back from the dead feared a hunter who had a holy whip because he thought it was the vampire killer, why would he be scared of the vampire killer if it couldn't kill him? As for other regenerating creatures,

Yes, that doesn't mean it's got every ability of every other holy weapon in the series unless it's stated to, that's not how it works. I don't know if these other feats are valid given there's no scans, but the logic I've seen otherwise isn't.

Christopher with the vampire killer and other holy weapons can kill mud man who are described to have regenerative properties.

Literally wrong, "regenerating" here is just regaining its solidity after melting into mud, not healing from attacks, and it says it's vulnerable to conventional attacks while doing so. It ALSO says that Holy Water negates this process, which means that:

1 - The Vampire Killer isn't negating shit here
2 - Holy Water is BETTER than the VK at negating the alleged regeneration, meaning your logic of the VK being the best Holy weapon at doing it isn't right

It literally is a basic application when it's like the first thing she learns about Glyphs and it's most basic thing with how all things in existence have some essence of magic and she ripped the guy's essence apart despite him phasing through the wall.

Nothing here you said even vaguely proves that it applies to her conventional attacks. Just "it's something central to her fighting style" and "magic is universal", doesn't mean shit regarding her actual attacks' NPI. I'm getting pretty tired of you just gesturing at something that's vaguely universal and claiming it's a solid basis for an ability applying to literally everything.

Both the navigators and the ghosts are subservient to the castle and literally become a part of the castle. The Navigators is literally done by being exposed to Dracula's magic, same with almost every other fodder tier monster who's lore is that they're under the influence of the castle's magic.

"Under the influence of/Affected by the castle's magic" doesn't mean they all were in the same way. That should be obvious given the sheer variety of critters in the castle, they don't all get warped the same way.

I think I've discussed this enough to be comfortable with my votes being added to the OP. You're free to respond and I'll try to continue the discussion if you want to, but I'm fairly convinced regarding most of the abilities.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

.

Sorry for the ping, but would you be willing to just do a quick summary of your current vote? (Just what you agree and disagree with, no added text)
Since I feel like the OP is currently having some difficulties counting the votes. (What people agree and disagree on when they are split)

 

[Armorchompy]

You're right, gimme a bit

 

[Armorchompy]

Tech Resistance: Agree with OP
Enhanced Senses: Neutral, leaning towards Opposition
Dream Manipulation: To be determined, agree with OP based on information given
Healing: Agree with OP
Soul Manip: Haven't read through that yet.
Self-Sustenance: Might be fine for vampires (neutral/agree with opposition), not for other creatures (agree with OP)
Ice Manip/Absolute Zero: Agree with Opposition
Regeneration Negation: Agree with OP based on given data.
Life Manip Resistance: Some of the reasons it's on profiles have not been challenged, so agree with Opposition by default
Paralysis: Agree with OP
Incorporeality: OP seems to have conceded so agree with Opposition by default.
Resistance to Immortality Negation: Agree with OP based on given data.
Elemental NPI: Suggested Opposition to change justification, agree with Opposition if that is done.
Phasing: Agree with OP
Nonexistent: Agree with OP

 

[Theglassman12]

@Armorchompy it’s from the chaos magic section of the creatures of chaos page but the TL;DR version is that the dark magic that other folks use succumb to the ill effects of it and go mad, be obsessed with bloodlust and be inflicted with endless nightmares. The Belmonts like Trevor and Richter are able to use these dark powers and they suffer no ill effects from these.

My guy the spell broke before the fight started, him killing the succubus allowed him to leave the dream world.

She got them because they have the power to kill them in the first place, literally nothing about the process of killing creatures of chaos has any correlation to strength, otherwise they wouldn’t make a big deal out of their immortality being something they have to get through. Yes defeat as in kill them like she does in the game itself, literally what monster in the game gets knocked out and not flat out killed in Ecclesia? If it doesn’t have the ability to permanently kill monsters then explain why Joachim died and never came back or why Olrox feared the vampire killer over a random holy whip? You’re not really addressing the main feats the vampire killer has, especially when Olrox in the same novel mentions how he can come back from any form of conventional death.

The conventional attacks in question is the vampire killer, can you stop twisting the meaning of this phrasing? Especially with the holy water part as nothing said it’s better at killing the enemies, just that it’s an alternate solution you can use to kill these monsters.

What part of the glyphs is vaguely universal when the game goes out of its way to show everything and anything having traces of magic via glyphs? The game shoves it in your face with how the magic works.

Did you ignore the part where I said that the ghosts are literally a part of the castle itself? The same thing with the Navigators as they’re melded into the castle itself? Because they have more in common than a random owl that’s under the influence of the castle. And even if you want to disagree on the matter, Dracula’s magic still affects these creatures as he can control these nonexistent entities at will.

 

[Armorchompy]

@Armorchompy it’s from the chaos magic section of the creatures of chaos page but the TL;DR version is that the dark magic that other folks use succumb to the ill effects of it and go mad, be obsessed with bloodlust and be inflicted with endless nightmares. The Belmonts like Trevor and Richter are able to use these dark powers and they suffer no ill effects from these.

I assume this isn't the main evidence?

My guy the spell broke before the fight started, him killing the succubus allowed him to leave the dream world.

Not as far as I can see. He realizes it's an illusion, that doesn't mean he broke through the spell, he just noticed a logical flaw in it.

She got them because they have the power to kill them in the first place, literally nothing about the process of killing creatures of chaos has any correlation to strength, otherwise they wouldn’t make a big deal out of their immortality being something they have to get through. Yes defeat as in kill them like she does in the game itself, literally what monster in the game gets knocked out and not flat out killed in Ecclesia? If it doesn’t have the ability to permanently kill monsters then explain why Joachim died and never came back or why Olrox feared the vampire killer over a random holy whip? You’re not really addressing the main feats the vampire killer has, especially when Olrox in the same novel mentions how he can come back from any form of conventional death.

They never make a big deal out of their immortality in the scans from that game, you're connecting it to a very distant piece of lore.

I don't know what you're talking about regarding Olrox or Joachim, burden of proof is on you and as far as scans you've posted there's nothing viable there. I have no obligation to try to disprove things you're barely gesturing towards. But if you're just going to try going in circles about some vague interpretation bullshit I won't really bother responding any further.

The conventional attacks in question is the vampire killer, can you stop twisting the meaning of this phrasing? Especially with the holy water part as nothing said it’s better at killing the enemies, just that it’s an alternate solution you can use to kill these monsters.

Belmont's Revenge: "Falls like a droplet and takes on a human form, then moves straight ahead. Can only be defeated when in a muddy state, or by holy water at any time." Pretty straightforward, and I'm sure it works that way in-game too. And when I said conventional attacks I was also including other sub-weapons, but either way there's no reason to believe this is actual regen, words have more than one specific meaning (and also regeneration is different from resurrection, so this whole thing is quite pointless).

What part of the glyphs is vaguely universal when the game goes out of its way to show everything and anything having traces of magic via glyphs? The game shoves it in your face with how the magic works.

Nothing about Shanoa utilizing Glyphs to fight and to absorb other Glyphs means all of her attacks can do the latter. They're different functions, and nowhere is it implied she can strike at them directly (in fact that claim is directly contrary to OoE gameplay, where Glyphs can only be interacted with once the creature holding them is dead, and only with the absorption rather than attacks).

Did you ignore the part where I said that the ghosts are literally a part of the castle itself? The same thing with the Navigators as they’re melded into the castle itself? Because they have more in common than a random owl that’s under the influence of the castle. And even if you want to disagree on the matter, Dracula’s magic still affects these creatures as he can control these nonexistent entities at will.

No I didn't ignore it, I just didn't subscribe to your interpretation of it, and unfortunately you're going to have to accept that things on this website require proof, not possibility.

 

[CosmoDark38]

Nothing about Shanoa utilizing Glyphs to fight and to absorb other Glyphs means all of her attacks can do the latter. They're different functions, and nowhere is it implied she can strike at them directly (in fact that claim is directly contrary to OoE gameplay, where Glyphs can only be interacted with once the creature holding them is dead, and only with the absorption rather than attacks).

While i agree with everything else you said, not all glyphs need their holder to be dead for them to be absorbed like nova skeletons and wallman.

 

[Armorchompy]

While i agree with everything else you said, not all glyphs need their holder to be dead for them to be absorbed like nova skeletons and wallman.

Yeah you're right, I meant to add "or under specific circumstances" but forgot

 

[Theglassman12]

@Armorchompy no that's another scan for other dark magic, this is what I'm talking about.

The succubus literally says he broke free of her spell. It couldn't be more blatant than that.

This isn't a distant piece of lore when they talk about creatures of chaos and how they generally exist in the series due to the darkness of humanity. Plus you conceded that the creatures of chaos are immortal so why are you saying them slaying these same monsters has no correlation to immortality negation? Joachim is a vampire in Lament of Innocence and Leon killed him and he never came back, Olrox sensed a holy whip's power and feared it because he thought it was the vampire killer. Why would he be scared of the vampire killer if it couldn't kill him?

In the game you can kill him when he falls by landing the shots with the vampire killer so saying that's the only way to kill him despite it not being the case is unfounded.

You literally absorb their glyphs while they're attacking, there's numerous monsters and bosses that you absorb the glyphs from in the first place so that's not a good argument to make.

Right, we require proof and not possibility despite the fact we have ratings labeled under "possibly X tier" across numerous pages on the wiki, abilities are no different when we give "possibly X manipulation" too. Compromises have existed and happened before on this site so saying we strictly operate under an "all or nothing" mentality is ignoring the times we have allowed a possibility.

 

[Armorchompy]

@Armorchompy no that's another scan for other dark magic, this is what I'm talking about.

Eh, fair enough, I understand the issue others had was this could've just been regular non-magical insanity but I think either interpretation's valid, so I'll just call myself neutral in regards to that.

The succubus literally says he broke free of her spell. It couldn't be more blatant than that.

... Because he noticed an inconsistency with it. Like he doesn't just flex his power and break through it, he notices it doesn't make sense and that leads him to realize it's not a normal dream.

This isn't a distant piece of lore when they talk about creatures of chaos and how they generally exist in the series due to the darkness of humanity. Plus you conceded that the creatures of chaos are immortal so why are you saying them slaying these same monsters has no correlation to immortality negation? Joachim is a vampire in Lament of Innocence and Leon killed him and he never came back, Olrox sensed a holy whip's power and feared it because he thought it was the vampire killer. Why would he be scared of the vampire killer if it couldn't kill him?

"Slaying" isn't "permanently killing", I haven't seen any evidence that anyone's actually perma-killing these guys. Consider that there's like... three dozen named bosses in the series that return across multiple games. I can believe big shots like Dracula or Death resist Immortality Negation, it's a bit harder for me to say ******' Puwexil or Frankenstein or Slogra & Gaibon do, if all the "evidence" is hypothetical. If putting them under for a decade or a century is all you can do, then that's what a Belmont's gonna do. Hell, it's what they do to Dracula.

I dunno why you expect me to know why Joachim never came back, but when so many other random bosses do, him not having done so is not the slam dunk that you think it is. Hell, maybe he did but he just never showed up in any of the games, or maybe he had some random unexplained shit going on that prevented him from resurrecting (not exactly a worse assumption than like 30 bosses having random shit that allows them to ignore the immortality negation). Or, much more likely, it's just a minor inconsistency in a 30+ game series that hundreds of different people have worked on, either way it's not good enough proof of Immortality Negation, that's for sure. And I think it's pretty obvious why someone wouldn't want to be killed, permanently or not. Having your plans foiled and having to wait god knows how long before you're resurrected can't be fun.

In the game you can kill him when he falls by landing the shots with the vampire killer so saying that's the only way to kill him despite it not being the case is unfounded.

I literally never said it was the only way, I said that Holy Water is better at killing him than the VK, that is directly stated and shown in mechanics.

You literally absorb their glyphs while they're attacking, there's numerous monsters and bosses that you absorb the glyphs from in the first place so that's not a good argument to make.

Sure, this doesn't change the fact that "can absorb glyphs with a specific spell" is in no way enough to claim she can affect them with other kinds of attacks, when that spell, need I remind you, is literally made to interact with glyphs. While it may be true that "everything has a glyph" that has no bearing on the conversation of what parts of her skillset can actually affect them.

Right, we require proof and not possibility despite the fact we have ratings labeled under "possibly X tier" across numerous pages on the wiki, abilities are no different when we give "possibly X manipulation" too. Compromises have existed and happened before on this site so saying we strictly operate under an "all or nothing" mentality is ignoring the times we have allowed a possibility.

"Possibly" happens when there is actual evidence that something is true, and it is just either weak or inconsistent. You have brought forth no proof at all that Navigators and generic ghosts share their abilities, just the fact that they might. That is not enough.

 

[Armorchompy]

Also, I notice I (And UchihaSlayer) haven't been counted as an agreement in the OP, only as a disagreement. I would appreciate if that could be fixed as soon as possible.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Also, I notice I (And UchihaSlayer) haven't been counted as an agreement in the OP. I would appreciate if that could be fixed as soon as possible.

He is doing the same with @Mr. Bambu, Topaz seems to have a hard time counting the votes correctly... (when it's his own favour) That is why I proposed it to be updated in the first place in a simple setting.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Each ability should probably have its own Agree and Disagree sections, no one here agrees or disagrees with everything.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Each ability should probably have its own Agree and Disagree sections, no one here agrees or disagrees with everything.

That's actually wrong, but it shouldn't come as a surprise who is agreeing and who is disagreeing with everything...

 

[Topaz404]

He is doing the same with @Mr. Bambu, Topaz seems to have a hard time counting the votes correctly... (when it's his own favour) That is why I proposed it to be updated in the first place in a simple setting.

Perhaps i need to make myself clearer with this- i do not wish to continue on with this thread, given how it has caused me nothing but a headache and a fair amount of misery. I would prefer you do not try to drag me back into this. Thank you

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Perhaps i need to make myself clearer with this- i do not wish to continue on with this thread, given how it has caused me nothing but a headache and a fair amount of misery. I would prefer you do not try to drag me back into this. Thank you

Alright, thank you for at least making that clear.

Are you still gonna do a count for the last time, implementing the parts that have been accepted?

 

[Armorchompy]

I think it'd be better if someone else kept count.

 

[Topaz404]

Alright, thank you for at least making that clear.

Are you still gonna do a count for the last time, implementing the parts that have been accepted?

Given Armor's response, im gonna have to split what he agrees/disagrees with, but hopefully this retally will go well

After this, i will simply observe.

 

[Topaz404]

Took a while, but i believe everything has been fixed- if you need anything, please let me know (i did my best)

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Took a while, but i believe everything has been fixed- if you need anything, please let me know (i did my best)

Yeah, And sorry if I sound rude, my vocabulary in English is limited so I often sound a bit rude without trying to, so I apologize for that.

But yeah, this looks accurate the only thing I could find was that you forgot to remove the disagreement for immortality negation and its resistance from the disagreeing section.

Other than that great work, And I believe it should be sufficient to implement some of the accepted stuff no?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Other than that great work, And I believe it should be sufficient to implement some of the accepted stuff no?

Removing Life Manip from Death is literally the only thing that has enough of a majority that it can be removed at the moment.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Removing Life Manip from Death is literally the only thing that has enough of a majority that it can be removed at the moment.

And tech manipulation, since Empir also agreed to remove that. (unless I am reading his agreement wrong, he sees it as a resistance for the technology themself, and not the beings.)

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

And tech manipulation, since Empir also agreed to remove that. (unless I am reading his agreement wrong, he sees it as a resistance for the technology themself, and not the beings.)

Wouldn't count it as so, Empir still want to list the resistance on the profiles, just now specifying that it's for the tech itself rather than the Belmonts.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Each ability should probably have its own Agree and Disagree sections, no one here agrees or disagrees with everything.

Also by this, I meant having one of these under each respective ability, feel like it'd make it a bit easier to see where consensus is for each ability individually.

Spoiler: Resistance to Technology Manipulation

Agree: Mr. Bambu, Deagonx, Armorchompy, UchihaSlayer96, ActuallySpaceMan42 (5)
Disagree: Theglassman12, DarkDragonMedeus, Emirp sumitpo [For the Belmont's tech rather than the Belmonts themselves] (3~)
Neutral: Planck69 (1)

Spoiler: Enhanced Senses

Agree: Mr. Bambu, Deagonx, ActuallySpaceMan42 (3)
Disagree: Theglassman12, DarkDragonMedeus, Planck69, Emirp sumitpo (4)
Neutral: Armorchompy, UchihaSlayer96 (2)

Spoiler: Resistance to Dream Manipulation

Agree: Mr. Bambu, Deagonx, Armorchompy, UchihaSlayer96, ActuallySpaceMan42 (5)
Disagree: Theglassman12, DarkDragonMedeus, Planck69, Emirp sumitpo (4)
Neutral:

Spoiler: Healing

Agree: Mr. Bambu, Deagonx, Armorchompy, UchihaSlayer96, ActuallySpaceMan42 (5)
Disagree: Theglassman12, DarkDragonMedeus, Planck69, Emirp sumitpo (4)
Neutral:

Spoiler: Soul Manipulation

Agree: Mr. Bambu, Deagonx (2)
Disagree: Theglassman12, DarkDragonMedeus, Planck69 (3)
Neutral: Emirp sumitpo, ActuallySpaceMan42 (2)

Spoiler: Self-Sustenance

Agree: Mr. Bambu, Deagonx, Armorchompy, UchihaSlayer96, ActuallySpaceMan42 (5)
Disagree: Theglassman12, DarkDragonMedeus, Planck69, Emirp sumitpo (4)
Neutral:

• For Vampires

Agree: Deagonx, ActuallySpaceMan42 (2)
Disagree: Theglassman12, DarkDragonMedeus, Planck69, Mr. Bambu, Emirp sumitpo (5)
Neutral: Armorchompy, UchihaSlayer96 (2)

Spoiler: Resistance to Ice Manipulation & Absolute Zero

Agree: Mr. Bambu, Deagonx, ActuallySpaceMan42 (3)
Disagree: Theglassman12, DarkDragonMedeus, Planck69, Emirp sumitpo, Armorchompy, UchihaSlayer96 (6)
Neutral:

Spoiler: Immortality & Regeneration Negation

Agree: Mr. Bambu, Deagonx, Armorchompy, UchihaSlayer96 (4)
Disagree: Theglassman12, DarkDragonMedeus, Planck69 (3)
Neutral: Emirp sumitpo, ActuallySpaceMan42 (2)

Spoiler: Paralysis Inducement

Agree: Mr. Bambu, Deagonx, Armorchompy, UchihaSlayer96, ActuallySpaceMan42 (5)
Disagree: Theglassman12, DarkDragonMedeus, Planck69, Emirp sumitpo (4)
Neutral:

Spoiler: Resistance to Immortality Negation

Agree: Deagonx, Armorchompy, UchihaSlayer96 (3)
Disagree: Theglassman12, DarkDragonMedeus, Planck69, Emirp sumitpo (4)
Neutral: Mr. Bambu, ActuallySpaceMan42 (2)

Spoiler: Non-Physical Interaction

• Elemental [This is just for removing the Slime justification btw, not gutting Elemental NPI itself]

Agree: Mr. Bambu, Deagonx, Armorchompy, Theglassman12, UchihaSlayer96, ActuallySpaceMan42 (6)
Disagree: DarkDragonMedeus, Planck69 (2)
Neutral: Emirp sumitpo (1)

• Phasing

Agree: Deagonx, Armorchompy, UchihaSlayer96, ActuallySpaceMan42 (4)
Disagree: Theglassman12, DarkDragonMedeus, Planck69, Emirp sumitpo (4)
Neutral:

• Nonexistent

Agree: Mr. Bambu? Deagonx, Armorchompy, UchihaSlayer96, ActuallySpaceMan42 (5?)
Disagree: Theglassman12, DarkDragonMedeus, Planck69, Emirp sumitpo (4)
Neutral:

 

[Theglassman12]

@Armorchompy and the succubus literally said he broke free of the spell when he wasn’t under the influence of the dream. The fact he wasn’t succumbed to the dream whatsoever would imply he has a resistance to it.

So your only argument for Joachim is that we don’t know, despite the fact that other monsters like Carmilla or Dracula or Death have actual confirmation that despite being killed by other hunters, they never stayed dead? The monsters in the series that do resist immortality negation have it with the explicit evidence that they do. Also it being a minor inconsistency isn’t an argument when Leon flat out talks about the fact that he has the ability to kill the monsters that belong to the night and Julius literally kills these monsters, with Soma questioning how the hell that’s possible when he has to normally use seals to beat them. We also have numerous instances of monsters coming back from levels of destruction beyond something that a normal whip or dagger can deal with, and the fact that the normal monsters don’t come back at all despite being immortal is the evidence. This really comes off as you just not remotely accepting that Lucy describing herself to lack the natural talent to kill. If Olrox was only scared of that because he’ll just come back to life later, why did he not fear death whatsoever and instead just see him as a bygone era despite being able to kill him and he just flaunts that he can come back?

And the vampire killer can kill monsters like Olrox and the Dawn of Sorrow bosses, something Soma points out and questions how that’s remotely possible.

Yes, interact with glyphs, the thing that’s me of magic itself which lets her interact with a dude who’s phasing through a wall.

Wdym share the same abilities? The abilities of being under the influence of the castle? Their entire existence is tied to the castle and they’re literally a part of the castle itself. This isn’t a “they might” when they share the same fate of being a part of the castle itself.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Resistance to Technology Manipulation

• Belmonts currently resist tech manip cause Dracula's castle can disrupt satellite images, and they’re unaffected. 𝔒𝔓 points out that the Belmonts aren't satellites and have never used them, so this resistance shouldn't apply.
• 𝔒𝔭𝔭𝔬𝔰𝔦𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 argues that the Belmonts use a bunch of tech-based items (A scouter, positron gun and neutron bombs) and how they function normally in the castle.
• The counterargument points out that the castle’s tech manip has only been shown to mess with satellite images and nothing indicates it'd affect all technology.
• 𝔒𝔭𝔭𝔬𝔰𝔦𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 pushes back with Dracula’s blood shutting down a massive mechanical monstrosity.

Yeah, I don't see why this would apply beyond satellite imaging, agree with OP.

Enhanced Senses

• Phantoms can cloak themselves in darkness, becoming invisible. The Belmonts page claims that they can naturally see through this, but 𝔒𝔓 points out that Leon can’t actually see them (From his gameplay's perspective) and has to rely environmental cues like their glowing eyes, their visible reflection on the floor and the fact that they flicker in and out of their invisible state, to locate and fight them.
• 𝔒𝔭𝔭𝔬𝔰𝔦𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 argues that the Phantoms are explicitly stated to be invisible in the bestiary, yet Leon can still fight them without any special equipment.
• 𝔒𝔓 rebuts that Leon can just track the Phantoms with the previously mentioned cues.
• 𝔒𝔭𝔭𝔬𝔰𝔦𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 responds by arguing that Leon seeing the reflection is still a sign he has the necessary senses, since Phantoms "cannot be seen by the naked eye."

Split on this one, but leaning toward agreeing with OP based on what's seen in the game.

Resistance to Dream Manipulation

• 𝔒𝔓 points out that while Succubi have the ability to invade dreams, the Belmonts have never been shown fighting one while asleep.
• 𝔒𝔭𝔭𝔬𝔰𝔦𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 points out that Incubus can invade the minds of those who are awake and further argue that Leon seeing through a Succubus' spells suggests he has a resistance to said power. Moreover, dark/chaos magic is known to induce nightmares, but Trevor and Simon are unaffected by it.
  • Bambu suggests that dark/chaos' magic effects might be tied more to mundane psychological effects than an otherworldly power.
• Taking a “one justification at a time” approach, 𝔒𝔓 questions why Leon’s specific resistance should automatically scale to all Belmonts across generations.
• 𝔒𝔭𝔭𝔬𝔰𝔦𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 goes into more detail about the Succubus encounter and how the Belmonts' resistance to the dark influence of other creatures is built into their blood.

Agree with OP.

Healing [Mid-Low]
Basically, there's this one item that only appears in one of the games (Lament of Innocence) that gradually heals your HP. 𝔒𝔓 is arguing that it should just be an ability item that's listed on Leon's profile and not an all Belmont ability, but 𝔒𝔭𝔭𝔬𝔰𝔦𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 is arguing that it's actually one of the items that's been passed down, so the other Belmonts would have access to it with their item crashes.

Agree with OP.

Soul Manipulation
Half this thread is about this one, but the gist of it is, Mana/Magic is the Soul, but only a select few are actually able to target and actually attack someone's mana (Most notably imps) but the current page lists everyone who has mana/magic as being able to harm the soul.
That's I think the conclusion we arrived to?

The arguments around it start from here, I believe.

Neutral.

Self-Sustenance [Type 2]
Monsters currently have Self-Sustenance cause Magnus tells us that they don't strictly need to drink blood (Human blood to be exact), but they do it for pleasure anyways. 𝔒𝔓's argument is that “we don’t need blood to survive” doesn’t exclude literally any other piece of food in existence. 𝔒𝔭𝔭𝔬𝔰𝔦𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 is arguing that since these monsters are based on classic horror and mythological creatures known for their insatiable bloodlust, means that blood is their sole source of nourishment.
It's really late, so I'll finish this tomorow.

Agree with OP.

Resistance to Ice Manipulation & Absolute Zero

• 𝔒𝔓 argues that a Werewolf (In one of the scans used for AZ) being one-shot by said ice magic disproves the idea of a blanket resistance, and that a couple characters using AZ magic is not enough to claim all ice magic in the series operates at AZ levels.
• 𝔒𝔭𝔭𝔬𝔰𝔦𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 counters that the Werewolf is just fodder, with top-tiers like Death and Carmilla being able to withstand such attacks, and points to Richter mocking the AZ magic as evidence it’s common.
• 𝔒𝔓 rebuts that this only supports the idea that the AZ resistance should be specific to those who’ve directly tanked it and that Richter’s comment can just be dismissed as teasing a fellow Vampire Hunter.
• 𝔒𝔭𝔭𝔬𝔰𝔦𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 responds by noting that the fodder don't have profiles and that items like the "Absolute Zero Ring" confirm the connection between ice magic and AZ.

I see no reason to extrapolate AZ to every form of ice magic.

Immortality & Regeneration Negation

• 𝔒𝔓 point outs that Lucy's statement about not being able to destroy monsters is due to her lack of brute strength rather than immortality negation, and that creatures of chaos shouldn’t scale to exorcists who specialize in anti-chaos magic in the first place.
• 𝔒𝔭𝔭𝔬𝔰𝔦𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 counters by pointing out that creatures of chaos can kill each other (𝚂𝙲𝙰𝙽 𝙿𝙴𝙽𝙳𝙸𝙽𝙶) and disputes the idea that Lucy’s statement refers to brute strength.
• 𝔒𝔓 challenges the validity of the "monsters can kill each other" claim, arguing that the monsters respawning suggests they aren’t truly killed.
• 𝔒𝔭𝔭𝔬𝔰𝔦𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 responds by explaining that the monsters "respawning" is due to their sheer numbers rather than their immortality.

Neutral.

Life Manipulation
𝔒𝔓 argues that the scan is misinterpreted, with “lose their life” simply meaning “die” in this context.
This has no push-back, but 𝔒𝔭𝔭𝔬𝔰𝔦𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 notes that the cast have other ways of resisting life manip.

No problem with removal, and being replaced with a better feat.

Paralysis Inducement
𝔒𝔓 argues that the passage’s use of "petrified" is metaphorical, especially since the character easily moves immediately afterwards.
𝔒𝔭𝔭𝔬𝔰𝔦𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 maintains that it's literal paralysis caused by Death’s magic, as the passage mentions the air being filled with his magic.

Agree with OP.

Resistance to Immortality Negation
𝔒𝔓 argues that Death does die, repeatedly even, but returns due to external factors like Dracula's resurrection and such, while 𝔒𝔭𝔭𝔬𝔰𝔦𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 asserts that Death can’t be permanently killed, as he comes back even when you kill him with the Vampire Killer (The holy magic in the franchise, and I relegated to mention this, but holy magic is the only thing that can negate a Red Skeleton's immortality).

Not sure.

Non-Physical Interaction

• Elemental
  • 𝔒𝔓 argues that elemental intangibility doesn’t apply to slimes, as "gel" is not non-physical and can be interacted with like any other material.
  • 𝔒𝔭𝔭𝔬𝔰𝔦𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 pushes back, claiming that slimes are portrayed as intangible in fiction.
  • 𝔒𝔓 responds that slimes being intangible in other fictional works is irrelevant unless it can be proven that slimes in Castlevania are intangible. 𝔒𝔓 further asserts that most RPGs portray slimes as physical entities that can be damaged with ordinary weapons.
  • 𝔒𝔭𝔭𝔬𝔰𝔦𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 argues that RPGs where you hit slimes aren’t relevant, as those same games also let you hit ghosts.

Unless there's evidence you can't hit slimes normally, then agree with OP.

• Phasing
  • 𝔒𝔓 argues that the phasing ability in question only works on specific walls, so interacting with these characters shouldn't grant NPI.
  • 𝔒𝔭𝔭𝔬𝔰𝔦𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 points out that Shanoa (I think?) killed someone even while he was phasing through a wall with her glyph magic.
  • 𝔒𝔓 counters that Shanoa only did so by absorbing his powers rather than directly interacting with him (Basically arguing that Power Absorption of this type doesn’t require NPI to affect intangible beings).
  • 𝔒𝔭𝔭𝔬𝔰𝔦𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 asserts that Shanoa still did interact with the guy's essence, even the part that's inside the wall.

The Power Absorption would have NPI, but not because of the wall stuff.

• Nonexistent
  • 𝔒𝔓 argues that the Navigators are never fought, nor are they interacted with in a way that constitutes NPI.
  • 𝔒𝔭𝔭𝔬𝔰𝔦𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 counters that Dracula's and Alucard's magic can interact with Navigators, whose nonexistence is the result of the castle's influence, and that common ghosts, also affected by the same influence, can be harmed directly.
  • 𝔒𝔓 asserts that Alucard reviving the Navigators by reversing time isn’t NPI and disputes the idea that common ghosts share the same qualities as Navigators, as the Navigators are the only ones whose powers were forgotten when they died.
  • 𝔒𝔭𝔭𝔬𝔰𝔦𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 maintains that Alucard's magic had to directly interact with the Navigators to restore them and that their nonexistent state is due to them succumbing to the magic of Dracula's castle, which applies to all ghosts.

Dracula specifically divided Navigators into deformed avatars free from pain, time, and existence. So I see no reason common ghosts should share this trait.

 

[Topaz404]

Yeah, I don't see why this would apply beyond satellite imaging, agree with OP.

Split on this one, but leaning toward agreeing with OP based on what's seen in the game.

Agree with OP.

Agree with OP.

Neutral.

Agree with OP.

I see no reason to extrapolate AZ to every form of ice magic.

Neutral.

No problem with removal, and being replaced with a better feat.

Agree with OP.

Not sure.

Unless there's evidence you can't hit slimes normally, then agree with OP.

The Power Absorption would have NPI, but not because of the wall stuff.

Dracula specifically divided Navigators into deformed avatars free from pain, time, and existence. So I see no reason common ghosts should share this trait.

I presume your agreeing with most, neutral with everything else?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Basically.

 

[Topaz404]

Basically.

Consider your vote counted, then.

 

[Theglassman12]

@ActuallySpaceMan42 one other point in regards to the immortality and regeneration negation, Julius in Dawn of Sorrow is stated to being capable of killing monsters with no seals, and someone like Soma beating the bosses needs to use the seals and he finds it insane that Julius has the ability to kill them. So more evidence regarding the hunters being able to permanently kill these monsters

 

[Armorchompy]

I see no reason to extrapolate AZ to every form of ice magic.

Main rationale is that the people there are far from the strongest users of ice magic in the setting, there's a few prominent ones that should at the very least be able to match anything they do.

Unless there's evidence you can't hit slimes normally, then agree with OP.

As I'd mentioned in the discussion, there's other enemies (like living flames) that this would apply to.

@ActuallySpaceMan42 one other point in regards to the immortality and regeneration negation, Julius in Dawn of Sorrow is stated to being capable of killing monsters with no seals, and someone like Soma beating the bosses needs to use the seals and he finds it insane that Julius has the ability to kill them. So more evidence regarding the hunters being able to permanently kill these monsters

That's not really a power at all, Julius is just so strong that they don't have the time to regenerate (even if you wanna argue this is an ability, it'd be unrelated to resurrection null) before they kill him.

Also I have to apologize, I stopped getting notifications from the thread for some reason.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

As I'd mentioned in the discussion, there's other enemies (like living flames) that this would apply to.

I realize I should have emphasized this in my summary, but the Belmonts fighting living flames is already covered under their Elemental NPI.
This thread is only trying to remove the slime justification, not get rid of Elemental NPI entirely (At least that's how I understood it).

This will remove some, but not all of the NPI justifications spread across various pages.

 

[Armorchompy]

I realize I should have emphasized this in my summary, but the Belmonts fighting living flames is already covered under their Elemental NPI.
This thread is only trying to remove the slime justification, not get rid of Elemental NPI entirely (At least that's how I understood it).

Ah alright mb