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Its actually used in quite a few profiles, i was more susprised that people didnt know it was a thing
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Scaling Lifting Strength to Catching Punches
- Thread starter Sir_Ovens
- Start date
azontr
He/Him- 40,579
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Really? Well ****, that's news to me. Mind giving a few examples if you have any?
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Alex Mercer
Alex Mercer is the protagonist of the first Prototype video game, a man who wakes up in the GENTEK morgue with bizarre and horrifying powers and no knowledge of events prior to that point, aside from his name and that he was once a scientist. Confused, enraged, and determined to reclaim his...
vsbattles.fandom.com
James Heller
James Heller is the second protagonist of Prototype 2. Following his attempted suicide mission against Alex Mercer, Mercer infected Heller with his variant of the virus. Driven by a powerful need for vengeance, he set out into the city to uncover the truth behind Alex Mercer, Blackwatch, and the...
vsbattles.fandom.com
Big Boss
Big Boss, real name John, also known as Jack, and formerly known as Naked Snake, Vic Boss, Ishmael, Saladin, or simply Snake, was a renowned special forces operative and mercenary commander. He founded U.S. Army Special Forces Unit FOXHOUND, along with the mercenary company Militaires Sans...
vsbattles.fandom.com
Raiden (Metal Gear)
As a young boy, Jack lived in the turbulence and violence of the Liberian Civil War and was orphaned at a young age by Solidus Snake, who raised him as his own and groomed him to become a killing machine of a child soldier who gained the title of Jack the Ripper, the White Devil, making quite...
vsbattles.fandom.com
Toshinori Yagi (All Might)
Toshinori Yagi (八木俊典 Yagi Toshinori), most commonly known as All Might (オールマイト Ōru Maito), is the former No. 1 Hero who bore the title of the world's Symbol of Peace and inspired a whole generation of heroes, including Izuku Midoriya, whom he passed the torch of One For All to. He teaches...
vsbattles.fandom.com
Izuku Midoriya (Deku) (Pre-Final Act)
Izuku Midoriya (緑谷出久 Midoriya Izuku), also known as Deku (デク Deku), was one of the 20 percent of people on Earth to be born without a quirk, a natural superpower that is a basic biological function in the modern society, earning him endless amounts of torment and bullying in school. Even still...
vsbattles.fandom.com
Poseidon Shura
Poseidon Shura is the adopted son of Poseidon Nero of the Oración Seis Galáctica, making him the prince and heir of the Nero Empire. Shura was also a student of Demon King Ziggy, who taught him Satan Gravity. Due to his incredible talent with the Ether Gear, Shura dubs himself the King of...
vsbattles.fandom.com
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James Heller's Class M is actually an upscaled giant-head-ripping feat, not a punching one.Alex Mercer
Alex Mercer is the protagonist of the first Prototype video game, a man who wakes up in the GENTEK morgue with bizarre and horrifying powers and no knowledge of events prior to that point, aside from his name and that he was once a scientist. Confused, enraged, and determined to reclaim his...
James Heller
James Heller is the second protagonist of Prototype 2. Following his attempted suicide mission against Alex Mercer, Mercer infected Heller with his variant of the virus. Driven by a powerful need for vengeance, he set out into the city to uncover the truth behind Alex Mercer, Blackwatch, and the...
Big Boss
Big Boss, real name John, also known as Jack, and formerly known as Naked Snake, Vic Boss, Ishmael, Saladin, or simply Snake, was a renowned special forces operative and mercenary commander. He founded U.S. Army Special Forces Unit FOXHOUND, along with the mercenary company Militaires Sans...
Raiden (Metal Gear)
As a young boy, Jack lived in the turbulence and violence of the Liberian Civil War and was orphaned at a young age by Solidus Snake, who raised him as his own and groomed him to become a killing machine of a child soldier who gained the title of Jack the Ripper, the White Devil, making quite...
Toshinori Yagi (All Might)
Toshinori Yagi (八木俊典 Yagi Toshinori), most commonly known as All Might (オールマイト Ōru Maito), is the former No. 1 Hero who bore the title of the world's Symbol of Peace and inspired a whole generation of heroes, including Izuku Midoriya, whom he passed the torch of One For All to. He teaches...
Izuku Midoriya (Deku) (Pre-Final Act)
Izuku Midoriya (緑谷出久 Midoriya Izuku), also known as Deku (デク Deku), was one of the 20 percent of people on Earth to be born without a quirk, a natural superpower that is a basic biological function in the modern society, earning him endless amounts of torment and bullying in school. Even still...
Poseidon Shura
Poseidon Shura is the adopted son of Poseidon Nero of the Oración Seis Galáctica, making him the prince and heir of the Nero Empire. Shura was also a student of Demon King Ziggy, who taught him Satan Gravity. Due to his incredible talent with the Ether Gear, Shura dubs himself the King of...
Big Boss's feat actually involves deadlifting the Coocoon above his head, not just stopping it dead in its tracks as it tries to crush him from above.
Toshinori Yagi doesn't just stop at punching the block, he also provides an upward force to keep it from falling into him and with Deku ultimately gives it one last push with their fists. Also I think we already had a thread for this specific topic where Therefir defended the calc.
MCU Hulk also has a feat like this where he punches a massive Leviathan but it isn't enough so he has to push it with his fist like in a Wrestling match to halt its advance gradually
Difference between these feats and RWBY is, these feats actually involve calculating the mass of the object beforehand.
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Deku and All Might don’t even have LS based on the cube, wtf. How many times do I have to say that, it was literally rejected because it was a punch.
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Its literally linked to him punching the floor and gettig Class M out of it
Meant to remove him, i was referring to Raiden's feat
So does Yang
Yang didnt punch it though, and she halted it immdiately
Mkay, i can do that
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James Heller literally scales to this as per his LS description, I'd know, I evaluated it.
Agnaa considered the acceleration timeframe in Raiden's feat to be too short of a timeframe as the standard "force= mass times acceleration" can inflate results if the timeframe required to stop the object is depicted as too low (Which I personally don't agree with and I myself consider the feat valid), but he'd still scale to the mass of the Submarine itself which is Class G.
I saw the feat, yeah, Yang grabs the fist and is more direct than All Might, I think the only issue they have now is the scaling of that newtons-force value, whereas in All Might's might, the mass of the cube was calc'd beforehand and there was a timeframe and KE calc involved. Not sure if that would work in Yang's metal punch blocking case.
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Also, y’know, All Might doesn’t scale to the cube for his LS. So that point is moot.
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Except he didnt fully stop it and it crushed him
RWBY: Finally Calcing the Paladin's Punch
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The forc of its punch was calced
Spinoirr
He/Him- 16,142
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Cough
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Well ****, I just checked All Might's profile, he scales to an LS strength feat way higher than that Cube he destroyed with Deku.
My other points still stand tho.
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I think I get the issue now.Except he didnt fully stop it and it crushed him
RWBY: Finally Calcing the Paladin's Punch
The forc of its punch was calced
Whereas most of the other calcs calculate the mass of the object and their speed and acceleration to get the LS values first, your calc uses the impact strength required to move concrete in a horizontal fashion (As in, punching it in a horizontal direction), which is a tad bit different from what Deku did (Where he crushed it in his hands and it being different from a punch). That's prolly why people are taking issues with this from what I can see.
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DCEU Superman is Class G for crushing diamonds
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He briefly stopped it before getting overpowered by it slowly accelerating back into him (In the scene the submarine only advances by mere centimeters before Raiden gets crapped on), it's like stopping a bull but then the pull pushes back and you're losing your ability to slowly resist.
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Ye but Yang's feat is a bit different than Deku's, since Deku has to envelop the rock in his hands and apply pressure to slowly crush it, whereas in Yang's case it's blocking a rapid punch in a single horizontal direction.
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Okay but another character in RWBY, Yatsuhashi, has the same kid of feat and it was determined to not be scalable
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Basically in this case, you'd need to figure out the mass of the metal arm, figure out how fast it was going when Yang stopped it and then you can figure out the deceleration value from there (Top speed to screeching halt). Then slap the mass and acceleration values into the classic F=ma formula and you'll get your answer.
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It's a crushing feat translated into a force calc from a punch because of a sudden impact.
We already do that. This thread is about calcing the force generated from a blow based on the shocwaves from it or total arm movement.
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Yeah, that's the difference between the RWBY feat and all the other feats Weekly and I mentioned. Which also explains why people are having issues with it.
Regardless, I've already laid out the correct way to figure it out in case all else fails.
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Agnaa
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I don't think catching punches should be LS. Realistically, every single durability feat where the environment doesn't take a corresponding amount of damage should be a LS/AP feat, but most people would see that as taking things too far. And I don't think catching a punch with your hand should give LS, while catching a punch with your chest (i.e. no-selling a punch with zero knockback) or catching a punch with crossed arms (a block) wouldn't. So I think for consistency, these sorts of feats should just be dura.
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Okay but why tho? Why would stopping a force equivalent of an amount of mass by pushing back against it with your hands not be a feat of lifting strength?
Agnaa
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If we went ultra-literally with IRL physics it would be, but so would every dura feat where the environment takes less damage than the punch's AP. This is especially easily demonstrable in cases where the character is not knocked back at all.
But since we don't do that, and that it'd get a bit silly to do that, we shouldn't give it for either case.
But since we don't do that, and that it'd get a bit silly to do that, we shouldn't give it for either case.
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But we do do that
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I disagree, they should scale in cases where Character A has a stated/calc'd LS (Like being Stellar for moving stars and stuff) and Character B catches that punch and then they both wrestle with their fists, or when characters stop a charging car / train / whatever type of vehicle dead in their tracks, they'd scale to the mass of the vehicle at the very least.
Agnaa
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I've been told a lot more times than once that we don't treat dura feats along those lines as LS. If we treat them all as LS, then keep doing that. If we don't treat casual dura feats as such, then don't.
I disagree, they should scale in cases where Character A has a stated/calc'd LS (Like being Stellar for moving stars and stuff) and Character B catches that punch and then they both wrestle with their fists, or when characters stop a charging car / train dead in their tracks, they'd scale to the mass of the vehicle at the very least.
Your first situation is completely inapplicable because you added "and then they both wrestle with their fists", that obviously counts for LS scaling.
Cases like that don't actually scale to the mass of the vehicle because of the way the forces involved work. A vehicle's mass, for LS purposes, is applied downwards towards the Earth and only applies when lifting something up. For stopping a car/train in its tracks, you need to take its mass, and the acceleration the character is providing against it to give you the force involved. This can be less than the weight of the object (if the deceleration was less than 9.8m/s^2), or it can be more (if the deceleration was greater than 9.8m/s^2). I'm fine with using those feats if they slow it down by pushing against it, but not if the object crashes into them then goes flying elsewhere, or stops completely (especially since that massively inflates the calcs, as t goes towards 0, force goes towards infinity).
I disagree, they should scale in cases where Character A has a stated/calc'd LS (Like being Stellar for moving stars and stuff) and Character B catches that punch and then they both wrestle with their fists, or when characters stop a charging car / train dead in their tracks, they'd scale to the mass of the vehicle at the very least.
Your first situation is completely inapplicable because you added "and then they both wrestle with their fists", that obviously counts for LS scaling.
Cases like that don't actually scale to the mass of the vehicle because of the way the forces involved work. A vehicle's mass, for LS purposes, is applied downwards towards the Earth and only applies when lifting something up. For stopping a car/train in its tracks, you need to take its mass, and the acceleration the character is providing against it to give you the force involved. This can be less than the weight of the object (if the deceleration was less than 9.8m/s^2), or it can be more (if the deceleration was greater than 9.8m/s^2). I'm fine with using those feats if they slow it down by pushing against it, but not if the object crashes into them then goes flying elsewhere, or stops completely (especially since that massively inflates the calcs, as t goes towards 0, force goes towards infinity).
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Yeah, I was talking about slowing down or stopping them quickly by pushing against the vehicle/object driving into them.
Agnaa
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No I haven't, I was told this was a general rules thing. I hope that my messages are enough for you to figure out how they'd apply to whatever specific cases you have in mind.
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What hollowness do we assume for machines?
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Well most blogs I saw 'round these parts go with 50%.
Can't be too hollow or else it'd bend and collapse under its own weight.
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Gotcha, thats one of the last things i need for the calc
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I did notice what KLOL said and kind of agree there could be case by case in mind. Blocking a punch from a giant character for example seems okay to get lifting strength to some extent from or if a character attacks by swinging a building sized sword and the like. But I do not think a simple "Character A is Tier X and character B consistently blocks his punches and doesn't even budge" should have their AP be divided by the length of their punch which will turn an energy calculation into a Newton's of force calculation that character B gets that treated as a lifting strength feat; that's basically calc stacking.
Another example is when Trunks effortlessly bench pressed Frieza's Supernova or Goku casually blocks Trunks' sword strikes using just his finger. Android saga characters would have Stellar Class lifting strength a long time ago by that practice. Or even a couple of 9-A characters blocking each others punches could get Class M results despite not having a single lifting feat surpassing Class 10. That's where some of the basic problems like.
Another example is when Trunks effortlessly bench pressed Frieza's Supernova or Goku casually blocks Trunks' sword strikes using just his finger. Android saga characters would have Stellar Class lifting strength a long time ago by that practice. Or even a couple of 9-A characters blocking each others punches could get Class M results despite not having a single lifting feat surpassing Class 10. That's where some of the basic problems like.
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I mean, Weekly didn't make the calc to get a joule value out of it, he got it from the actual IRL strength required to break concrete. The main issue is that it's rapid unlike most pushing LS feats involving toppling stone beams and such where it is slow.
As for the second statement, I think I already stressed that stuff like that would not work (Deriving LS from a joule-only attack that doesn't have its mass calculated beforehand), the character would need to have a separate LS value like lifting cars, buildings, stars, whatever, for that type of LS scaling to work. Like in the case of the Metal Gear feats where we have the object's mass calculated and whatnot to figure out the force and KE.
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For trunks example, it's a good one for couple of reasons:
Let's say that we know how heavy the Supernova of frieza is [I'll just give it any number, it doesn't matter], let's say it's universal or infinite because why not. We see trunks physically lifting it, thus he would have universal LS, pretty good so far
And when trunk used his sword against goku, goku managed to block it. Good a dura feat
Buu~t you can also say it's LS, because remember trunks was using two hands, plus his sword was infused with ki, yet still not managed to make goku's finger move, it also stopped trunks sword from moving [trunks slashes his sword against goku's finger, but instead of pushing against the finger we see it drop dead in its track] thus meaning goku can stop Objects that have Universal weigh or LS if you wanna, in their track
It could be either way tbh, it just really depends on how you wanna see it
You can say
"Well he only tanks it so no it's not. LS feat, merly dura feat"
Or
"He stopped it form moving, thus using force [and his LS]to stop it and push against it, it's Dura and LS feat"
In these cases, the best approach would just do them both tbh, and if it creates problems in scaling later on [like character not preferring similar feats, failing to constantly perform feats in the same class or below] we get rid of it
Let's say that we know how heavy the Supernova of frieza is [I'll just give it any number, it doesn't matter], let's say it's universal or infinite because why not. We see trunks physically lifting it, thus he would have universal LS, pretty good so far
And when trunk used his sword against goku, goku managed to block it. Good a dura feat
Buu~t you can also say it's LS, because remember trunks was using two hands, plus his sword was infused with ki, yet still not managed to make goku's finger move, it also stopped trunks sword from moving [trunks slashes his sword against goku's finger, but instead of pushing against the finger we see it drop dead in its track] thus meaning goku can stop Objects that have Universal weigh or LS if you wanna, in their track
It could be either way tbh, it just really depends on how you wanna see it
You can say
"Well he only tanks it so no it's not. LS feat, merly dura feat"
Or
"He stopped it form moving, thus using force [and his LS]to stop it and push against it, it's Dura and LS feat"
In these cases, the best approach would just do them both tbh, and if it creates problems in scaling later on [like character not preferring similar feats, failing to constantly perform feats in the same class or below] we get rid of it
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If it helps the Paladin casualyl flips vars and trucks and is the size of a second story building
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Ah, throwing feats, those work.
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