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Magic: the Gathering - Neo Planeswalker Upgrades

Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot

Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot

VS Battles
Retired VSB Bureaucrat
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Note: This is only about the Neowalkers (Planeswalkers who exist after the mending)

So currently, our profiles for most of the Neo Planeswalkers are a bit all over the place in terms of tiering. Many are rated somewhere within Tier 8 (which is something often dwarfed by generic creatures), others are within Tier 7, and some are as low as Tier 9. For anyone who isn't familiar with M:tG, the problem here is that Planeswalkers, even after the mending (an event that turned most 'walkers from living gods into just obscenely powerful individuals) are well above the majority of other things on most planes. However, their vagueness can often make them difficult to properly tier.

Fortunately, when looking back through some of the more recent lore, I found a very solid feat for scaling.

  • Kiora, a Planeswalker with power over water, pulls the entire Halimar Sea through only strength of wil.
"A wall of water three miles wide rose into the air. It swirled and twined into a single mass, a floating, shimmering shape shot through with sea plants and coral and fish. It was a seawater globe, hovering overhead. Kiora had emptied the entire Halimar Sea, and was holding it through the strength of her will. Her gaze was fixed on the outcropping above Chandra, on the source of the spell—on Nissa."

  • Not only that, but another Planeswalker, Jace, then disperses the entire sea, turning most of it to mist.
"She reared back, and the water reared back with her.

And with one bodily motion, she hurled the entire sea at Nissa.

Nissa's eyes widened.

—But the sea split in two, and each half split in two, and each resulting half split and split again, and the mass of water dissolved and dispersed into mist. Water roared down, sweeping away Eldrazi creatures. Sea life splashed down, flapping.

The mind mage stood between Kiora and Nissa, his eyes glowing with power under his hood, his extended hand edged with crackling blue magic.

Kiora did nothing for one stunned second. Then she bellowed, not words but inarticulate sounds of rage."

Now I don't know exactly what tier controlling an entire sea is, but I'm pretty sure it's well into tier 6, especially since said sea hosts leviathans (massive creatures that dwarf ships), giant squids, countless underground caverns, and numerous undiscovered areas and ancient structures. Jace reducing most of it to mist might be higher, but I'm not sure.

As for who this scales to, here's a list from the profiles we currently have.

  • Chandra Nalaar - A character who has been repeatedly shown to be on par with Jace since the two were introduced, lacking in skill as opposed to raw power.
  • Sarkhan Vol - Fought Chandra, required both her and Jace to be subdued.
  • Ob Nixilis - Defeated Jace, Gideon, and Nissa without much effort. Required the three of them plus Chandra working in tandem to drive him off.
  • Tamiyo - Comparable to Jace.
  • Sorin Markov - Effortlessly destroyed a being who was overpowering both Jace and Tamiyo simultaneously.
  • Nahiri - Sorin's equal, managed to defeat him by sealing him in stone.
  • Koth - Held his own against Elspeth, one of the strongest current Planeswalkers, while refusing to attack her.
  • Kaya - This one's only a possibility, as Kaya has not interacted with any of the main characters and has only really appeared in side arcs, she shouldn't be astronomically weaker than most other Planeswalkers.
Any help with finding an exact tier for the mentioned feats would be extremely appreciated.
 
I think I've already agreed on this being reasonable. I'll say it again, though. There are more Tier 6 feats in MTG anyways.
 
Promestein said:
I think I've already agreed on this being reasonable. I'll say it again, though. There are more Tier 6 feats in MTG anyways.
Click to expand...
This is unsurprising. Though this one in particular is one I gravitated towards, since it scales to basically any Neowalker who does anything.

Oh, and Avacyn.

Plus a lot of others who don't have profiles.
 
I highly agree with this and think Neowalkers should be somewhere in the Tier 7-6 Range via being likely powerful enough to defeat and control Monsters that have displayed at least City Level feats and what's mentioned above.

Another thing that should be brought up is that Oldwalkers such as Nicol Bolas, Ugin, and Sorin are usually compared to Neowalkers as far more powerful even after being weakened by the mending, so there could be a gap somewhat and since Nicol Bolas is already Multi-Solar System Level, prehaps Oldwalkers like Nahari and Sorin should be upgraded to Multi-Solar System Level in Neowalker form?
 
Serpent of the Internet 97 said:
prehaps Oldwalkers like Nahari and Sorin should be upgraded to Multi-Solar System Level in Neowalker form?
Click to expand...
That's definitely a possibility. Sorin, Ugin, and Nahiri were always comparable, and post-mending Ugin is still around Bolas' level, so I don't see why the other two wouldn't be.
 
Sounds like a good place to begin then, Ob Nixilis would also scale to this alongside Liliana Vess and the other oldwalkers that yet to have profiles.

I think there should also be on the MTG verse page 2 lists for planeswalkers, one being Neowalkers and the other Oldwalkers as its getting kinda clunky where it is now.
 
I'd be a bit more skeptical about Lilly. Specifically because when she first met Bolas after the mending, she thought it hadn't affected him at all due to how much more powerful he was than her. Even after getting the Chain Veil, Bolas handily stomped her with zero effort.

She should easily be one of the strongest Neowalkers, though. She completely obliterated Griselbrand, who was equals with Avacyn, who was taking on both Jace and Tamiyo. Not sure exactly what her peak would be, though.
 
I would say she's probably one tier above Jace and the other Gatewatch memebers given that she obliterated an entity who is equal with an entity that almost defeated Jace and Tamiyo hadn't been for Sorin's interruption.
 
So right now that would be 7-A or High 7-B given that Jace would be 7-B since Avacyn is currently seen to be in the 7-B range currentlly. I do think that 7-B is a good place to start for Neowlkers as the gatewatch would be 7-B because of Jace and most of the neowalkers have shown to be equal power with them, likely higher though with Kiora's feat.
 
Bumping.

Also kind of wondering what size we should use for the Halimar sea. We don't really get anything extensive beyond "large sea that is also really damn deep". Is there a specific real world example that would best fit?
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
Also kind of wondering what size we should use for the Halimar sea. We don't really get anything extensive beyond "large sea that is also really damn deep". Is there a specific real world example that would best fit?
Click to expand...
According to what I read about the Halimar Sea, it is artifical and was the result of the Sea Gate closing it off from the ocean so the most accurate real world representation would be something like this, prehaps?
 
Hmm...so basically it would have been part of the ocean before being closed off, then.

Maybe something like the Andaman Sea, or perhaps the Red Sea? Maybe the Gulf of Mexico, as that is both connected to the ocean and a deep ocean basin? IDK.
 
I think the best bet is the Caspian Sea, it's surrounded by land, is reasonably sized with what we're working with, and while its much deeper, with the artifical wall that blocks the Halimar Sea being only 500 ft. tall and the Caspian Sea being 3,360 feet deep, I think its probably the best option,
 
This seems fine to me as well.
 
Alright then. I'm pretty sure the overall way the Caspian sea is spread out, it has an area of about 140,000 square miles or so. Not sure exactly what tier that would be, or what tirning most of that into mist would be.

Also worth noting that Kiora with the Bident of Thassa has a 6-A feat.
 
I would think that to be At least Small Country Level via sheer size, I think the weight would need to be calculated however if there were to be a tier for turning it to mist.

I'm curious about the 6-A feat though (mostly because I wanted to find it in the lore but couldn't find it)
 
That sounds about right, though I'd like to know for sure.

Here it is.

"Immediately, a sheath of bright blue energy formed around the bident. Kiora held it up, and a deep rumbling filled the small pit. It continued for several moments, and then she heard it—water. Rushing water. Jori was spellbound as Kiora drew the entire power of the ocean to her.

"What do you say we get out of here?" Kiora said, though it wasn't a question. The roar of the water was soon joined by a series of deafening cracks that seemed to split the world. A deep, rumbling grinding followed, and the integrity of the entire cave network suddenly felt all too delicate. The sound grew closer, and Jori watched as the cavern above opened up to a torrent that cascaded toward them.

This was the power of the bident, the power of a sea god. Kiora had compelled the ocean to strip the land away. Millennia of erosion unfolded in a matter of minutes. It stripped away Kozilek's mark and liberated the small spaces deep in the earth." - Oath of the Gatewatch: Beneath the Surface
 
I don't think Jace actually fought Ugin. The extent of their interaction seemed to be Ugin telling Jace not to try and kill the Eldrazi, Jace doing so anyway, and Ugin freaking out about how this could have apocalyptic effects on the multiverse.

Bolas has also stomped Jace twice, now.
 
Bump as I wait for someone to calc this.

Also, realizing this now, but shouldn't all Planeswalkers have some form of resistance to existence erasure? For even some of the most powerful beings without Planeswalker sparks, coming into contact with the Blind Eternities violently wipes them from the face of the multiverse. Planeswalkers, on the other hand, briefly travel through them whenever they hop from plane to plane. Granted, they can't survive exposure for long periods of time (or whatever counts as "time" in the Blind Eternities), but they can still survive actual exposure to it, which is more than can be said for pretty much anything else.

I mean, Eldrazi notwithstanding, but they actually live there.
 
Okay. The calc group members have been too busy IRL to manage to handle a lot of calculations lately though.
 
Understandable. I'm just trying to get this one done because there are comparably few main characaters whose pages can be made or even used until they get a solid tier from this.
 
Okay. If it is very important, you could ask a few of them directly. However, this sort of measure should be used very seldom, and only by staff members.
 
Something else I would like to point out about Planweswalkers. both Neo and Old is that they usually have some form of reistence to Mind Manipulation. In terms of Oldwalkers Sorin, Nahiri, and Liliana weren't affected at all by Emrakul's passive mind manipulation, Ugin wasn't affected by Nicol Bolas's Mind attacks, Nicol Bolas shrugged off Jace's mind attacks like nothing and Ob Nixilis resisted Jace's mind manip and broke thorugh Jace's own mind in the process.

Neo-wise, Tamiyo resisited Jace's Mind Attacks, Jace himself while going half-mad by Emrakul's passive mind manip, never went fully insane like mostly everyone on the plane.. Sarkhan and others that have faced Jace took Jace's mind attacks like any normal attack iirc. Kiora wasn't affected by Kozilek's Mind Control either. Wouldn't know about any of the others though.

This is just something I noticed and took note of, maybe it means that all Planeswalkers should some form of resistance to Mind Manipulation given that alot of them already do. Any thoughts?
 
I think minor resistance to existence erasure is fine. As long a planeswalker doesnt stay inside the blind eternities, I doubt it would effect them much. Wont chalk it up though to Nicol Bolas casually taking dips into the eternities for years chilling.

It seems to still kill you, minus Marit Lage and Eldrazi, not even supreme old walkers like Bolas, Ugin or Taysir I think would survive for longer then a few minutes in it. And that is giving it the benefit of the doubt.
 
I have also noticed there are no real speed feats listed for most characters, though I think I have a good way to rank them.

See, for as long as Magic has been around, pretty much everyone and their mother has at some point used or fought someone who uses lightning spells. This becomes even more obvious when we look to Tarkir's current timeline, where pretty much everyone in Kolaghan's clan uses lightning in their fighting tactics. This speed is a normal thing for most beings on that plane to be able to use or combat. You have mages that can channel it, creatures that can keep up with and outpace it, characters who can fight and kill the dragons that use it, etc. And that's just the total fodder. Characters like Ojutai, one of the Dragonlords, can casually reflect lightning without even turning around to look at it. Even the dragons' lightning is just like real lightning, as said dragons also conjure cloud to ground lightning with their presence. I think it's pretty safe to say that every character who is of pretty much any relevance should be a minimum of Massively Hypersonic.

There is also the potential for them to be quite a bit higher. Another one of the Dragonlords, Dromoka, and her kin can release searing beams of light from their maws. Even human mages can learn to use this light and even move deftly enough to walk on it, as well. This one is more of a maybe, but I would think that at bare minimum it would scale to current Ugin and Nicol Bolas, as the former's mere presence is what created these dragons, in the first place.
 
Sounds great, though I would like to say that Dromoka doesn't breath beams of light. She actually breaths white fire due to her millienia of living in the desert. With that in mind, since white fire ranges in tempatures of that of the surface of the sun which is so hot it will blind us if we look at it for too long, combined with the fact its being used as a straight beam projectted at something, it would look like light to any witness/artist.
 
I got what I said when it was mentioned during the time Dromoka took over the Abzan Clan so yes though I don't understand how her Elder/Dragonlord Status would make whats probably just exaggeration on the writers behalf to simplfy what Dromoka's beam of light actually is into a literal beam of light considering that her Elder Status was made solely to show she's the leader of the clan and not an actual Elder Dragon...
 
I am fine with scaling from the lightning attacks.
 
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