Madoka Kaname (PMMM) VS Asriel Dreemurr (Undertale)

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

Well multiverse in this wikia is just defined by 10^500 universes though. Think your confusing multiverse with "higher dimension hyperverses for example a 7 dimensional universe is larger than a 6 dimensional one, just like a 3d cube is larger than 2d square). ====2-B: Multiverse level====
Characters who can create and/or destroy 1001 to 10^500 universal space-time continuums. 10^500 is the scientifically theorized number of 4-dimensional universal space-time continuums within our own multiverse.

This is Chara's level

2-A: Multiverse level+
This category is separated in the following manner:

• Multiverse level+: Characters who can instantly destroy or create a finite number of 4-dimensional universal space-time continuums that is equal or greater than 10^500.
• High Multiverse level+: Characters who can instantly destroy or create an infinite number of 4-dimensional universal space-time continuums. This category also includes 5-dimensional characters.

You didn't answer my question. You just copy that again.


Madoka changed infinite universes. Yet she didn't destroy them or show how much it would require for her to do se. What i'm trying to say is that why a feat that consist in warp reality would instantly traslate into attack potency.

 

[Aurasuke]

To be honest in my opnion reality warping> destructive ability

As reality warping negates durability if your opponent cannot reality warp or reality warp to your degree of power.

I can erase a building instantly using reality warp and any volume that is comparable to a bulding regardless of the substance it's made from or what atrributes it has (I can erase a building of diamond, or a building of sand the same way). vs one can erase a building via my fist.

Assume we both travel at normal human speeds.

If I can erase a building and you have no level of reality warping defense, then I can erase you just as easily as your volume is less then that of a building and you have no reality warping defenses.

 

[Drac32Drac]

Ahh, but reality warping doesn't work outside of reality... isn't that correct? That's the level of hax that Asriel/Chara/Frisk plays with, if I'm understanding the feats correctly. And destroying a universe... all of it, is kind of a reality warp in the sense of erasing it along with all of its concepts that are contained within that level of existance.

I might be way off, but I'm enjoying the debate, anyways.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

To be honest in my opnion reality warping> destructive ability
As reality warping negates durability if your opponent cannot reality warp or reality warp to your degree of power.

I can erase a building instantly using reality warp and any volume that is comparable to a bulding regardless of the substance it's made from or what atrributes it has (I can erase a building of diamond, or a building of sand the same way). vs one can erase a building via my fist.

Assume we both travel at normal human speeds.

If I can erase a building and you have no level of reality warping defense, then I can erase you just as easily as your volume is less then that of a building and you have no reality warping defenses.

Yes. But the problem with your example is that Madoka didn't erase the multiverse using reality warp. She changed the basic laws of the same using her goddess powers. Its not by any means the same and is clearly not attack potency

 

[Aurasuke]

Again I think you are confusing outside of reality with higher dimensions/beyond dimensions. Beyond universe simply means more than 1 universe. Madoka rewrote infinite universes while Frisk only had a limited number of save files (if we consider each save file a universe).

If you're talking about outside of dimensional reality that is Elder God Demonbane's level and that's High 1-A. Either way you haven't proved that Frisk is "beyond reality" and by reality I assume you mean dimenisional reality from 0 to infinite dimensions.

If you are talking about reality as 1 universe, Madoka is already infinitely above that (infinitely above a lower 2-C). (in feats)

Chara is a finite amount above in feats, and Asriel is just power scaled from Chara using stats (no actual feats of destroying infinite universes).

(No, destroying a universe is basically just destroying the universe, which means all 3-D matter + time of that universe). It doesn't mean you can control each of those concepts freely.

(For instance that's kind of like saying you destroyed a universe where the concept of omnipotence exists, you can't really destroy someone whose omnipotent even if you destroy that universe, and a concept certainly can't be destroyed it's just a concept, it can exist in another universe or a higher dimension like in Elder God Demonbanes universe)

Basically you think Frisk is beyond reality and thus tier 1-A. But it's clearly written she's not.

1-B: Hyperverse level
12-dimensional beings and above. These are characters that are beyond complex multiversal scale.

"Hyperverse" in this case comes from two words: "Hyper", which is used in mathematics to designate higher-dimensional space, and something extreme, above or beyond the usual level. As well as "verse" as a short for "universe". So it is intended as a description of a higher, superior, higher-dimensional existence, beyond conventional reality.

12-dimensional characters are an infinite number of times greater than a full complex M-Theory multiverse, 13-dimensional character are an infinite number of times greater than that and so onwards.

This category is separated in the following manner:

• Low Hyperverse level: 12-dimensional characters (That vastly exceed multiversal scale, but are still loosely related to it)
• Hyperverse level: Characters with a finite number of dimensions greater than 12.
• High Hyperverse level: Infinite-dimensional Hilbert space characters.

1-A: Hyperverse level+
Characters that that have no dimensional limitations, and are beyond scientific definition, in the realm of metaphysics.

Basically, a being or an object which is outside and beyond all concepts of time and space. This is something completely formless, abstract, metaphysical and transcendental. The usual scale does not make sense against a beyond dimensional object. Such beings can not be affected by destruction within the dimensions of time and space, or physical matter and energy. This "space" in which there is no dimension can be the background for any dimensional space. Within such a dimensionless "space", a dimensional structure with any number of dimensions can be placed, because there are no restrictions regarding dimensions.

Note that all tier 1-A characters have qualitative superiority over dimensional structures and concepts. Also, mere capability to exist in a beyond dimensional domain does not qualify a character as a beyond dimensional being.

This category is separated in the following manner:

• Hyperverse level+: Characters that are beyond all dimensional scale.
• High Hyperverse level+: Characters that are extremely strong compared to other characters within this category, and whose power by far exceeds the regular requirements for tier 1-A. Such characters are recurrently almost equivalent to tier 0 characters, if not for the presence of one such being within their respective franchises.

 

[Drac32Drac]

In all fairness, the way it went down in Undertale is vague at best. You can't fault me for reaching strange conclusions. Thanks for your patience.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

Ehm. No. To block Madoka's influence you only need a point in space where the Law of Cycles can't enter. As Kyubey tried to do in movie 3. Although he failed.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well I don't know if it was Alice's point, but I think he tried to say that Madoka only deleted the concept of withc through the Universe and that the Universes resets caused by this was simply chain reaction and not from her power?

 

[Aurasuke]

To be honest in my opnion reality warping> destructive ability
As reality warping negates durability if your opponent cannot reality warp or reality warp to your degree of power.

I can erase a building instantly using reality warp and any volume that is comparable to a bulding regardless of the substance it's made from or what atrributes it has (I can erase a building of diamond, or a building of sand the same way). vs one can erase a building via my fist.

Assume we both travel at normal human speeds.

If I can erase a building and you have no level of reality warping defense, then I can erase you just as easily as your volume is less then that of a building and you have no reality warping defenses.

Yes. But the problem with your example is that Madoka didn't erase the multiverse using reality warp. She changed the basic laws of the same using her goddess powers. Its not by any means the same and is clearly not attack potency

Okay then let's use your example. I can turn anything that is smaller than the size of a building into paper regardless if it's diamond or whatever material it is. You can destroy a building.

But in a fight you would lose because you are smaller than a building and thus I can just turn you into a pile of papers. I really don't see how you need to erase something for reality warping to be weaker.

Also Madoka didn't use her goddess powers to change the basic laws, she is the law of cycles, and she exists as a concept. However her powers can be used to alter reality any way it is seen fit as seen when Homura used her powers to rewrite everyting once more.

(She rewrote everything not just a single universe because she is from another timeline than Goddess Madoka (Homuras power before demonform was to turn back time), there are infinite timelines, and she basically allowed Goddess Madoka to live a normal human life again for the time being, but Madoka never actually lost any of her power, Homura simply made her forget she was a god. Madoka allowed this basically).

Essentially if Madoka wanted to erase all universes she would have the ability to do so. She already transcends casuality and killed her future witch self.

 

[Blahblah9755]

@Saikou But isn't erasing a multiversal concept still considered multiversal here since you would have to change the fabric of the multiverse to do it ( similar to if you changed a building to diamond you'd still be around building level)

 

[Aurasuke]

Well I don't know if it was Alice's point, but I think he tried to say that Madoka only deleted the concept of withc through the Universe and that the Universes resets caused by this was simply chain reaction and not from her power?

Yes, that's right, her wish had reset all the universes. But she was the one who slain all the witches herself. To do that you would have to literally break casuality in every universe. (There are an infinite number of them).

Your second point would be debatable had not Homura from Rebellion movie 3 reset everyting once again and allowed Madoka to live a Normal Life using "a tiny sliver of the law of cycles, the part that used to belong to Madoka Kaname".

Basically from Homuras use of Madoka's power, even though her WISH rewrote every universe and defied casuality as a chain reaction, SHE also has the power to warp reality in pretty much anyway as shown by Homura at the end of rebellion.

 

[Aurasuke]

@Saikou
But isn't erasing a multiversal concept still considered multiversal here since you would have to change the fabric of the multiverse to do it ( similar to if you changed a building to diamond you'd still be around building level)

Changing basic universal laws like gravity or the speed of light

To be honest in string theory this is actually a 8 dimensional idea because 5th dimensions equals probability space, 6 dimensions = beyond probabiliy space, or all universes that could have been born from the Big bang. 7 dimensions involves universes that are born from other factors that are NOT our big bang, and 8th dimensions is universes with different constants such as gravity or the speed of light being different. Though in fiction doesn't equal reality apparently lol.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

You are still avoiding my question. I asked. why bend reality to a multiversal level would be equivalent to Attack Potency. I understeand exactly where are you trying to get. But still you are just avoiding to answer me that. Why, if Madoka never showed it before. Would she had more Attack Potency than, say, Chara who has destroyed reality casually?

And yes. Madoka changed the basic laws of the universe as it is seen in Episode 12. She became a Goddess and a concept out of time because of that. Because her wish entered in conflict with her own existence. At the end the wish stayed and she ascended to Godhood.

Also. And by clarify this. Madoka didn't erase the concept of witch completely she just wish for every magical girl in past, present and future to NOT become a witch. As it is seen in movie 3. The concept of witch exists. But Madoka is preventing anyone to transform into one. And if the Law Of Cycles couldn't enter one point in space magical girls could still transform into witches.

 

[Aurasuke]

Would she had more Attack Potency than, say, Chara who has destroyed reality casually?

Because that reality consisted of one universe. 1 universe=4 dimensional. She wouldn't be able to destroy a reality where Elder God Demonbane Exists, or a reality of higher dimensions. Basically destroying reality in Chara's term is destroying 1 universe, no more than that. If you think Chara can destroy 100 dimensional universes and call that reality that is isn't true.

The concept of witches exists, yes but the only ones who remeber then were Homura, and all the other witches who were erased by Madoka.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

Would she had more Attack Potency than, say, Chara who has destroyed reality casually?
Because that reality consisted of one universe. 1 universe=4 dimensional. She wouldn't be able to destroy a reality where Elder God Demonbane Exists, or a reality of higher dimensions. Basically destroying reality in Chara's term is destroying 1 universe, no more than that. If you think Chara can destroy 100 dimensional universes and call that reality that is isn't true.

Ah, one universe you say? then lets use a little trick than i learned in this thread.

Attack Potency: Likely Multiverse level (Destroyed reality/the game itself, which contained countless timelines. While the exact number is unknown, the sheer number of resets performed by characters such as Flowey, along with the fact that a number composed of 216 'nines' is measurable at the end of the genocide route, would easily put the number in the 2-B range.)

Yeah. Chara is not universe level.

 

[Aurasuke]

Exactly, she can destroy 10^500 universe at most because she is tier 2-B range.

Countless timelines does not equal higher dimensions.

That's still al limited number which is far below Madoka's High 2-A status of inifnite universes.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well we don't actually knows how many timelines there is in Undertale verse, so it's not a solid maximum.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

Exactly, she can destroy 10^500 universe at most because she is tier 2-B range.
Countless timelines does not equal higher dimensions.

That's still al limited number which is far below Madoka's High 2-A status of inifnite universes.

Yes.But again. What Chara did was to destroyed them. What Madoka did was to warp them. See what i'm getting at? Madoka didn't destroy infinite universes. So why her attack potency would be infinite?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well she did deleted an infinite number of witches anyway.

 

[Aurasuke]

Sigh, if you really think Chara is tier High 2-A, go to content revisions and tell them what you think. Or ask other ppl in question and answers.

I never played undertale so IDK that much about it other than what others said.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It seems more like Alice is tyrin got get Madoka downgraded than Chara upgraded.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

Sigh, if you really think Chara is tier High 2-A, go to content revisions and tell them what you think.

What kind of strawman argument is that? i didn't say that Chara is High 2-A. In fact i wasn't even asking why Madoka is High 2-A. Please. Read my comments again.

 

[Aurasuke]

Sigh, if you really think Chara is tier High 2-A, go to content revisions and tell them what you think.

What kind of strawman argument is that? i didn't say that Chara is High 2-A. In fact i wasn't even asking why Madoka is High 2-A. Please. Read my comments again.

No thanks, I'm really tired, get someone else to explain to you the tier system in the questions and answers. I need to study now.

Clearly you believe Chara can destroy infinite universes so that means they are tier High 2-A. I never played undertale so I assumed one game= 1 universe, but apparently it's about 10^500 universes or something. Anyway just ask someone else. I'm signing out.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

Sigh, if you really think Chara is tier High 2-A, go to content revisions and tell them what you think.

What kind of strawman argument is that? i didn't say that Chara is High 2-A. In fact i wasn't even asking why Madoka is High 2-A. Please. Read my comments again.

No thanks, I'm really tired, get someone else to explain to you the tier system in the questions and answers. I need to study now.
Clearly you believe Chara can destroy infinite universes so that means they are tier High 2-A. I never played undertale so I assumed one game= 1 universe, but apparently it's about 10^500 universes or something. Anyway just ask someone else. I'm signing out.

Again. What kind of falacy is that? This thread was never about Chara being High 2-A. In fact i never actually implied that. I seriously don't know how your imagination can go so wild in a few comments. But accusing me of using an argument that i didn't even implied seems very off.

 

[Aurasuke]

^Bascially you don't think reality warping is more powerful than destructive abilities. Sure, but if you want to ask that might as well say that Demonbane is weak because all his attacks are reality warping as well.

What about the one above all? He only ever reality warps, anyway I'm logging off now.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

^Bascially you don't think reality warping is more powerful than destructive abilities. Sure, but if you want to ask that might as well say that Demonbane is weak because all his attacks are reality warping as well.
What about the one above all? He only ever reality warps, anyway I'm logging off now.

And again. You are trying to make up arguments that i never said. I was asking was, and i quote

"You are still avoiding my question. I asked. why bend reality to a multiversal level would be equivalent to Attack Potency. I understeand exactly where are you trying to get. But still you are just avoiding to answer me that. Why, if Madoka never showed it before. Would she had more Attack Potency than, say, Chara who has destroyed reality casually?"

I never even say that Chara was more powerful o that reality warping is less than destructive capacity. In fact i was saying that you are right in the believe that reality warping can be more powerful. (And also, Demonbane has lots of attack potency apart from warp) yet for some reason you are in the desilusion that my entire point is to upgrade Chara or something among those lines.

 

[Aurasuke]

"You are still avoiding my question. I asked. why bend reality to a multiversal level would be equivalent to Attack Potency. I understeand exactly where are you trying to get. But still you are just avoiding to answer me that. Why, if Madoka never showed it before. Would she had more Attack Potency than, say, Chara who has destroyed reality casually?"

Never shown before. Hmm, she broke casuality and rewroter all realities infinite of them at once. All universes at once. Never shown before....lol Yeah I wonder about that.

Her wish wasn't that all wishes could be erased from the past present and future of all timelines, she wished that she had the power to do it herself she has the power to erase all those witches and break casuality while she does it. She has that level of reality warping ability.

Rewriters infinite instantly, is able to interact with all witches that she erased such as Sayaka, and Nagisa. She interacts with things that beyond the realm of existence, she herself is beyond the realm of existence.

 

[Tzula]

Then Madoka wins.

Ups.

But Asriel is the god of hyperdeath..

XD

 

[Aurasuke]

Madoka is the concept of hope! =P

 

[Tzula]

Thats like comparing Khorne to Slaanesh.

 

[Aurasuke]

Madoka already killed her future self. I have no idea who you are reffering too lol.

 

[Tzula]

Oh its WH40K.

Wait she did?

I never seen Madoka.. So..

 

[Aurasuke]

Well yes, it's kind of paradoxical in a way because all magical girls become witchess (witch forms are usually more powerful than magical girl forms). Yet Madoka's wish of destroying all witches in the past present and future, in all timelines includes herself in the future.

Thus she exists even after she killed herself lol.

 

[Tzula]

Wouldent she die in the future?

 

[Aurasuke]

Well it's pretty weird lol, she exists in the past presence and future, in all universes, and is considered a concept of hope. She can kill herself in the future but she can still exist after that as well because she exists everywhere, in all of time and even beyond it.

 

[Tzula]

My brain.

 

[Tzula]

By the way.. If asriel absorbed EVERY monster it should mean he took there abilitys..

Right?

 

[The_Gleaming_Dwarf]

Reading this thread made my brain sad.

Seriously though, are god tier threads always this confusing?

 

[Aurasuke]

Just wait it gets even better, Homura wasn't satisfied that Madoka sacrficed herself like this and decided to rewrite everything again with a sliver of Madoka's power and ended up making part of the law of cycle "the part which used to be madoka kaname" human again (by human I mean she still has her powers she just forgot that she did.).

So she killed herself to save all magical girls, but then Homura was like nope, and erased her memories so she can live normally again even though she still has the powers of a Goddess (she just doesn't know she does).

 

[Tzula]

XD