Lunatic Knight meet the "Messiah" (Astolfo vs Kamen Rider Agito)

[Jamesthetaker]

I vote Incon via reason above.

 

[BERRIES555]

any tldr? im ready to vote

I'll do one on Agito, a more knowledgeable Fate supporter can do one for Astolfo.

They're equal on their stats and skills, which really comes down to abilities. While I don't know much about Astolfo's set, Agito's Burning Punch and Kick would definitely injure Astolfo, they enhance Agito's physical strength significantly while also making Astolfo explode from the inside out. Although, you can argue if it could work or not since Servants resist explosion manip but the way they do is different from Agito's.

That pretty much covers most of Agito's portion.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

To Astolfo he have duplication, intangibility (one different to the intangibility in Spirit Form), sound explosions, supernatural luck, higher AP with np and soul attacks.

 

[Loyd]

i don't know much about both, but this is not incon one of them is gonna lose

 

[IxaSaga2]

Agito has constant Aoe with Shining Caliber.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I vote Incon via reason above.

Counted

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Servant doesn't use Spirit Form in combat.

Sound manipulation got nulled by Agito's enhanced senses.

I don't know about Supernatural luck since it's unlikely for it to work in a battle. Most Servants doesn't use Soul manipulation in-character tbh.

How does Vulcano Caligorante work because Agito could just dodge it.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Servant doesn't use Spirit Form in combat.

How does Vulcano Caligorante work because Agito could just dodge it.

Of course he can't fight in spirt form, he mean intangtibility from Astolfo skill

Here is the video about how Vulcano Caligorante work:

 

[BERRIES555]

That’d actually be pretty hard to dodge, but Vel says that he doesn’t but pull it out until he needs it. So Agito still has time to do his explosion manip

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

astolfo intangibility is different from servant spirit form, it's his skill


Crazy Trip Drive Idol: Idol of Uncontrolled Rampage: The power of the Hippogriff from when Astolfo is summoned as a Rider. Everywhere, but also nowhere. Able to become an existence of numerical imagination, breaking through enemy formations. In detail, it's the ability of Astolfo making multiple clones and fading in and out of existence, thus avoiding attacks. Furthermore, in the event of a worst-case scenario, Astolfo is able to temporarily multiply the number of clones.

 

[TypeOU]

They're equal on their stats

except that they aren't? either you use what their AP should really look like or you don't and use their "official" AP, you can't just use it for agito and not for Astolfo

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I don't believe either of them have AP advantage in here. Sure Astolfo was a bit stronger than Agito at first but 2x AP isn't enough to give a decisive win and the latter casually stomped 10 gigatons character and can amp himself so physical strength matter less.

So again, AP difference isn't matter here

 

[BERRIES555]

except that they aren't? either you use what their AP should really look like or you don't and use their "official" AP, you can't just use it for agito and not for Astolfo

I mean, we did that and you said that Agito needs to be 4x stronger to make it equal. I still think that Agito could close that gap with how Rider treats it’s scaling. Even then, like how Vel pointed out, AP really wouldn’t make a difference here. They’re either equal or ones stronger than the other, but not to the point where I’d be the deciding factor of the fight.

 

[TypeOU]

I mean, we did that and you said that Agito needs to be 4x stronger to make it equal. I still think that Agito could close that gap with how Rider treats it’s scaling. Even then, like how Vel pointed out, AP really wouldn’t make a difference here. They’re either equal or ones stronger than the other, but not to the point where I’d be the deciding factor of the fight.

I was saying that he need both buff to be a 4x, not that he would need to get a total 4x

Agito starts at 10GT, he stomped someone who could casually do a 10 GT feats, with no further indication, the boost isn't gonna make him even close to astolfo, who was calced at 25GT with a misunderstanding and is actually at 125GT on average. For Agito to even get close to astolfo, he would need both buff to be respectively a x3 and a x4, which definitively isn't something you would give when there really isn't anything more than "he stomped" and "he did casually".

even assuming doing it casually means he was going at half of his full power, and stomping someone means being 3 times stronger -which are both pretty high value for most verses btw, 3 times stronger is enough to one shot your opponent in most verses-, he would still only have half of astolfo stats.

And then you have their abilities. Agito has what, fire, wind and explosive moves? Astolfo being able to create true clones and turning intangible is much better, especially since he can resist heat and explosions

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Explosion still gonna affect him slightly since it's non-mana based, heat is out but the fire attack still a deal

You also ignored that Shouichi had a enhanced sense that he can adjust, alongside extraordinary perception, damage reduction, rage power, and (for some reason, Agito supporters didn't bring this out) regen negation

 

[TypeOU]

Explosion still gonna affect him slightly since it's non-mana based, heat is out but the fire attack still a deal

You also ignored that Shouichi had a enhanced sense that he can adjust, alongside extraordinary perception, damage reduction, rage power, and (for some reason, Agito supporters didn't bring this out) regen negation

extrasensory perception is pointless here, it's just detection. Enhanced senses aren't really a game changer. Damage reduction only applies to impact on the anklet, dunno how much rage power buff him and if his feats were when he was buffed, or even if he woudl be angry fighting astolfo to begin with, and regen negation isn't a major factor since the servant regen isn't

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Yeah, from what i remember servants rarely regenerated from their wounds, with some exception like Hinako who regen herself after used "suicide is badass" NP

Well even if it just an detection it still gonna help him for sure, same with enhanced sense despite not a game changer

For Rage Power imagine SS2 Teen Gohan i believe

 

[TypeOU]

so no buff since gohan was only buffed thanks to being a SSJ2

 

[IxaSaga2]

Agito's 10 GT feat starts from El of the Water who made a storm casually which means with no effort at all. El of the Water is able to stomp Agito base forms, Gills and G3-X (who can amp his power to several tens of times) all at once. When Agito turned into Burning Form for the first time, he one shotted a monster who was stronger than or equal to Gills and G3-X and defeated El of the Water with 2 slashes from Shining Caliber in the same fight. El of the Water evolved further to his Strengthened form which stomps Agito Burning Form + G3-X + Gills EX + Another Agito. After seeing G3-X get incaped by El of the Water, Agito in Burning Form with rage power sent El of the Water flying with Burning Rider Punch. El of the Water tanked Agito's Burning Punch, Gills EX's EX Heel Claw and Another Agito's Assault Kick. Only Agito Shining form's Shining Rider kick was able to finish him off.

 

[BERRIES555]

During the G4 movie, Gills, G3 and Agito were all at the same level of strength, yet G4 could've still fought all three of them, even killing all three in a separate timeline. We could say that G4 was 3x stronger than G3, yet G3 was able to hold his ground against G4 for 3-4 minutes. Like what Ixa pointed out, Agito killed the EoW in two hits. Even if we want to say that the EoW was using half for that storm feat and the difference between him and Agito is only 3x, which is likely higher due to how long G4 and G3 lasted, he'd be at least 60 GTs. The gap is even closer when we say the difference in power is 4-5x, which is likely the actual difference when comparing to other fights in the show.

 

[BERRIES555]

Also forgot to mention this but 125 GT is Large Island, you could argue that Agito is like Island+ with the G4 scaling but I don't think you can break a tier with purley scaling and no multipliers.

 

[IxaSaga2]

Like what Ixa pointed out, Agito killed the EoW in two hits. Even if we want to say that the EoW was using half for that storm feat and the difference between him and Agito is only 3x, which is likely higher due to how long G4 and G3 lasted, he'd be at least 60 GTs. The gap is even closer when we say the difference in power is 4-5x, which is likely the actual difference when comparing to other fights in the show.

I wouldn't say that he used half of his power, El of the Water acted like his usual calm self even directly after the feat, showing no signs of tiredness. Strengthened El of the Water is way beyond his base self. He casually stood up after receiving Burning Rider Punch, EX Heel Claw and Assault Kick but only died after getting hit by Agito's High 4-C form.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I can say that Agito scaling chain is a bit wack lel

 

[BERRIES555]

I wouldn't say that he used half of his power, El of the Water acted like his usual calm self even directly after the feat, showing no signs of tiredness. Strengthened El of the Water is way beyond his base self. He casually stood up after receiving Burning Rider Punch, EX Heel Claw and Assault Kick but only died after getting hit by Agito's High 4-C form.

To be fair, its a star level attack.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

So....do you guys gonna vote?

 

[IxaSaga2]

I can say that Agito scaling chain is a bit wack lel

Agreed, G3-X's amps are pretty crazy. One moment, he's losing to a 6-C character while with amps, he can complete with two High 4-C monsters.

To be fair, its a star level attack.

The thing is, he lived long enough to travel from the place where he fought the Agito crew to Lord of Darkness' location even after he got hit with that move.

 

[IxaSaga2]

Also, he can adjust his hearing for reduced the damage from La Black Luna, still take a damage but not in fatal way for sure, and for AP difference he still catch up with rage empowerment

Skill-wise i forgot but how old the Unknown is? The thing i remember they are stronger than Gurongi tribes

WAIT WAIT WAIT. About this, I was busy with irl stuff and I just read this but this reminded me of a translation of an explanation of Agito's painting.

So the Overlord of Darkness is the one who created the world. Shortly after, he created 7 archangels which are the El Lords. Shortly after that, he created the Lords and then he created animals based off the Lords. So Lords are older than life and the El Lords were even older.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

WAIT WAIT WAIT. About this, I was busy with irl stuff and I just read this but this reminded me of a translation of an explanation of Agito's painting.

So the Overlord of Darkness is the one who created the world. Shortly after, he created 7 archangels which are the El Lords. Shortly after that, he created the Lords and then he created animals based off the Lords. So Lords are older than animals and the El Lords were even older.

Well....that's give Shouichi skill a more boost here

 

[BERRIES555]

The thing is, he lived long enough to travel from the place where he fought the Agito crew to Lord of Darkness' location even after he got hit with that move.

Ixa, I’ll stand beside you when it comes to a lot of things, but Star Level EoW is something that I wouldn’t dare argue with.

 

[IxaSaga2]

Ixa, I’ll stand beside you when it comes to a lot of things, but Star Level EoW is something that I wouldn’t dare argue with.

Nah dw, EoW still dead, he just hold out for a short period of time. El of the Wind and El of the Earth would be though.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

BUMP!!

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Vote to Astolfo. The invulnerability and clones of Astolfo are problematic, and even under the assumption that servants don't use soul attacks frequently it's still a option that Astolfo have and can use in a moment if he think is needed or if Agito is to problematic he can use it to see how effective is.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Counted, and before that do Agito dealed with enemies that can turned intangtible? If not then that would be hard for him

Don't forget to voting too, KR supporters

 

[IxaSaga2]

I think Agito's power is severely underestimated. As I said earlier, El of the Water's feat was done without breaking a sweat. Burning Form destroyed him with 2 slashes from Shining Caliber. El of the Water further evolved since then and can stomp G3-X (is also 6-C), who can amp several tens of times stronger along with 2 others equal to him. Agito Burning Form's punch can send El of the Water flying even with the initial power disadvantage.

Agito dealing with the clones will be no big deal for Agito as he's been outnumbered almost all the time. In the movie, he was constantly fighting and beating dozens of Ant Lords with his AOE attacks. He can make big AOE attacks by swinging Shining Caliber around just like he can with Storm Halberd and Flame Saber. Each one of those attacks can cause the explosion manip as stated above. Shining Caliber also doesn't need to use the fire property, it can just use the light property part of it.

Now for the intangibility, Agito has not dealt with intangibility before but he has the enhanced senses to deal with anytime Astolfo shows up. Agito in his lesser forms can react to a monster that was flying fast enough that he was invisible to Agito and Agito cut him down the middle while his back was turned. He also countered people that try to blindside him from the ground, from smoke, etc. without getting hit. Agito dodged all of G3-X's bullets from his Gatling gun when G3-X had his perfect A.I./precog. These were all done in his 8-C forms and ever since then, he massively upscales. Don't forget that everyone he was fighting is about 700 million - 4 billion years old (except G3-X).

 

[BERRIES555]

I'm gonna be honest, Agito should really get an upgrade to his AP due to G3-X being able to amp himself several tens of times (At least 30x) and the scale chain.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

What with the Agito scaling chain, did i missing something back then?

 

[IxaSaga2]

Basically, El of the Water had an evolution after his first fight with Agito Burning Form which made him stronger than Agito Burning Form, G3-X, Gills EX and Another Agito combined. Yet Agito Burning Form after he sees G3-X get hurt was able to amp himself to send EoW flying with a Burning rider punch after all 4 of them couldn't do a single thing to EoW.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

BUMP!!

 

[Loyd]

i wanna see agito fra but honestly i didnt read the paragraphs hes gotten

 

[IxaSaga2]

I can TLDR it.

Agito's amp via rage power is massive. Is bigger than another 6-C who can amp several tens of times. (~30x) The 10 GT feat was done before the series began and Agito rn is near EoS. Since then, there has been multiple evolutions with a big scaling chain. Shining Caliber can counter clones by swinging it around dealing AOE damage. Agito can use the light part of it if Astolfo resists fire. If Astolfo ever gets out of intangibility, Agito has the enhanced senses to counter or dodge attacks that are thrown at any angle. He fought monsters who are older than life according to Agito's Lore so he has a massive skill advantage. If Agito hits his moves a couple of times, Astolfo explodes from the inside out. I vote Agito for these reasons.