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Lunatic Knight meet the "Messiah" (Astolfo vs Kamen Rider Agito)

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Celebrating Agito for achieved the buff alongside giving the Saber version of Astolfo his first match, both pretty much haxless (only with a good versatility), and Magic Reistance would'nt be a factor here since Agito doesn't have any hax, anyway.....

Night time in the Tokyo City, Shouichi just walking around the street until a stranger called him. Curious with it, Shouichi find out who the heck called him and where is the source of the voice, until he found the person who called him, not before he approached him, the person run, thus Shouchi followed him. He arrived at the abadoned warehouse, looked around in the warehouse and suspected the person as "Unknown", until a whip almost hit him if Shouichi didn't evaded in right time, the stranger then approached him and revealed himself.....in Astolfo way of course
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.....
.....
Awkward silent and flustered, Astolfo said that he would challenged him in a duel, and Shouichi right after that transformed into his Rider form and amazed Astolfo, and transformed into his battle dress, who would win in this duel?


  • Burning Form Agito is used
  • Speed are equalized
  • Both in characters
  • Place: Abandoned Warehouse, Night time
  • Shouichi had a little knowledge about Astolfo "luck"
  • Starting range: 10 meters
  • Win via K.O and Incap!
  • The "Messiah": 7 (Ixa, Shady, Loyd, Sonic, Metal, Tracer, Nice)
  • Paladin of Evaporation Sanity: 1 (Expectro)
  • Inconclusive: 1 (James)


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Saber.%28Astolfo%29.600.2772636.jpg
 
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Astolfo luck is A++, nearly almost EX rank

As for Astolfo NP he would use it as last resort or finishing move i believe
 
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I don’t really know what the ranks mean. So, with that luck rank, what can Astolfo do? And is it limited or something like that?
 
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I don’t really know what the ranks mean. So, with that luck rank, what can Astolfo do? And is it limited or something like that?
Yeah, it's kind of limited/minor as the luck worked against something with potent hax iirc like Gae Bolg for example, at least that's what i remember

I'll leave it to the more knowledge folks about the luck for better explanation
 

TypeOU

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Aside from giving supernatural luck (who would have guessed?), luck is also useful against instant death, causality hax, fate hax and bfr.

Anyway I'm pretty sure this is a stomp? Agito is 2.5 times weaker and doesn't really have a way to catch up, since it's not like astolfo is a bad fighter. Astolfo also has an instant wincon with his np, and the heat is pretty much useless
 
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Aside from giving supernatural luck (who would have guessed?), luck is also useful against instant death, causality hax, fate hax and bfr.

Anyway I'm pretty sure this is a stomp? Agito is 2.5 times weaker and doesn't really have a way to catch up, since it's not like astolfo is a bad fighter. Astolfo also has an instant wincon with his np, and the heat is pretty much useless
So in this fight it would work as just an supernatural luck

The AP difference doesn't that big if you ask me, it's not like Thanos vs Raikou where Thanos was like baseline, and Astolfo doesn't have that much of stat amp unlike Nero, so i think it still fair

Only heat that got resisted, the fire attack would still affect him
 

TypeOU

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I mean yeah, the heat was the dangerous part, the fire is still 2 times weaker right? And the thing is agito has no way to catch up to the gap in stats, it's not like he's a better fighter or has a haxx or something like that
 
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Again, 2 times weaker isn't that big, also he can powered up himself via rage power (and from what i remember, rage power here =/= he goes crazy), and called him a less better fighter is blatant downplay, the dude can manage to use a creative way to defeated his opponents, and said the opponents he fought in the show was an ancient creatures

And despite Astolfo is not a bad fighter, he still had that personality of being too optimistict and the lack of common sense he had, and he can accidently telling some of his informations whcih Shouichi can exploit
 

TypeOU

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I mean on one side you jave astolfo, above the limit of humans skills, and on the other agito, the peak of humans skills. And astolfo isn't Achilles or someone like that, he doesn't have a weakness. His rage power isn't really relevant either since he's fighting... well... astolfo, getting angry is unlikely to say the least. It's not like astolfo takes it 10/10, but seeing how he's better at basically everything, even if slightly in some categories, agito can't secure a 6/10
 
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Above the limit of human skills doesn't made him to be like Lancelot and Raikou tho, and again his personality counted as his weakness, it seems you just ignored it, sure he's smarter than in Rider version but his lack of common sense and restraint still there, it's about his personality cons and not about his abilities/arsenal cons otherwise we removed any weakness regarding chars personality
 
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TypeOU

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Of course it doesn't, still better than agito. Astolfo "weakness" isn't really one in a 1v1 fight. He doesn't need common sense to stab someone, neither does he need restraint to strangle them with a whip. Unless you can give me a situation where this weakness matters, there's no reason reason to talk about it
 
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I can say that his over optimistict can cause him in the trouble, well you do what you believe then

All in all i don't think this is truly a stomp like you said, and i'll leave the other supporters to give their arguments about Agito since i'm be honest.....it's been a while i watched the show lel, i also seems in slight a bad mood atm so i'm sorry that my arguments above are pretty aggresive
 
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The difference in AP isn't so great to be a stomp but enough to be noted in a battle, the heat of Agito is resisted by servant physiology so he would need to figth mainly with the weapon that control wind no? That could be annoying but I don't think it would be enough to close the gap. Skill wise I think both are more or less equal and both also have versatility, the weakness of Astolfo I don't see how would affect the match in a sense that it give the advance to Agito, in general I think Astolfo win but I'm gonna wait until the supporters of Kamen Rider give their input.
 
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Agito might actually have the AP difference. The feat of the El of Water creating the island level storm was a casual one, as it was created around a boat that was filled with potential Lords that he could use in to future. furthermore, Agito stomped the EoW in his first appearance and can further increase his attacks through his rage amps.
 

TypeOU

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I really didn't mean to say stomp, what I meant is "a fight where agito really has nothing that could guarantee a win"


Agito might actually have the AP difference. The feat of the El of Water creating the island level storm was a casual one, as it was created around a boat that was filled with potential Lords that he could use in to future. furthermore, Agito stomped the EoW in his first appearance and can further increase his attacks through his rage amps.

meh, the feat servants stat are calced on is extremely lowballed, it's based on 1/3 of bunyan feat which is stated to destroy 100 moutain ranges, but 100 mountains were sed. TL;DR: using the calcs as if it was 100% serious is better for everyone
 
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Agito might actually have the AP difference. The feat of the El of Water creating the island level storm was a casual one, as it was created around a boat that was filled with potential Lords that he could use in to future. furthermore, Agito stomped the EoW in his first appearance and can further increase his attacks through his rage amps.
How much AP advantage he would have in that case? Because if is considerable Astolfo would be willing to use a NP.
 
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How much AP advantage he would have in that case? Because if is considerable Astolfo would be willing to use a NP.
Well he'd definitely be above Astolfo's AP, that's for sure. By how much, I don't know. Considering how we can't really gauge how much a person was holding back or how much their AP would be if they stomp them. Just that they vastly upscale from the 10 GT feat.
Now that I think of it, with the good hearing of Agito La Black Luna would be extremely powerful against him no?
Agito could actually adjust his hearing when against loud noises. And how would Astolfo know about his hearing? Or is it like one of his starting moves?
 

TypeOU

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Agito could actually adjust his hearing when against loud noises. And how would Astolfo know about his hearing? Or is it like one of his starting moves?
I think he meant "if astolfo uses it, and agito doesn't have the time to lower his hearing, it's gonna hurt a lot", which isn't that unlikely tbh
 
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Agito’s Extrasensory Perception allowed him to detect the appearance of Lords across a city, so I don’t doubt he could see it coming. Also, like I said above, how would Astolfo know that Agito has enhanced hearing? Unless of course it’s a common ability he uses.

Also, even if Agito was hit by this attack, all it would do is hurt like hell. Agito’s resisted being turned into ashes before and he was even able to fight under excruciating pain.
 

TypeOU

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Agito’s Extrasensory Perception allowed him to detect the appearance of Lords across a city, so I don’t doubt he could see it coming.
detection and precog are 2 different things
Also, like I said above, how would Astolfo know that Agito has enhanced hearing? Unless of course it’s a common ability he uses.
astolfo will eventually use la black luna, it's one of his main moves and not his ultimate either, so definitively worth thinking about
Also, even if Agito was hit by this attack, all it would do is hurt like hell. Agito’s resisted being turned into ashes before and he was even able to fight under excruciating pain.
big sound breaks brain hard
 
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detection and precog are 2 different things
The detection is usually for a heads up. Like a proximity mine for whenever danger is near.
astolfo will eventually use la black luna, it's one of his main moves and not his ultimate either, so definitively worth thinking about
I mean it's a giant blow horn. Agito should be able to lessen his hearing when he sees it being summoned. Also, Agito's fighting style mainly focused on CQC and constant offence. Would Astolfo be able to summon the horn while being in close quarters with Agito? I guess he could use animals to fly but it's countered by Agito summoning the Machine Tornador.

I also forgot to mention this but Agito's fire is hotter than Servant's heat resistance. They have minimal discomfort when being exposed to lava, which is 700 to 1,250 degrees celsius. But Agito Burning's fire is hotter than Flame Form's, which can produce 7000 degree celsius flames.
 

TypeOU

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The detection is usually for a heads up. Like a proximity mine for whenever danger is near.
No? I think you misunderstood the "attacks", it's more like "if a city/ally is attacked, he will notice it"
I mean it's a giant blow horn. Agito should be able to lessen his hearing when he sees it being summoned.
I forgot how big it was, my bad. well still, even against a servant, it would make them deaf, despite them being quite a lot stronger than Agito, so at the very least he should take some damages if anything
Also, Agito's fighting style mainly focused on CQC and constant offence. Would Astolfo be able to summon the horn while being in close quarters with Agito? I guess he could use animals to fly but it's countered by Agito summoning the Machine Tornador.
I mean he can create clones and his weapon will kinda force agito into keeping some distance, whip swords are good (although obviously unrealistic) weapons, so yeah, there's no way agito will be able to stop astolfo from doing anything. also again, machine tornador is outmatched by the griffon, as it's comparable to a martial servant strength wise and can be intangible
I also forgot to mention this but Agito's fire is hotter than Servant's heat resistance. They have minimal discomfort when being exposed to lava, which is 700 to 1,250 degrees celsius. But Agito Burning's fire is hotter than Flame Form's, which can produce 7000 degree celsius flames.
actually it was not added but they peak at something stupid like 4 millions thanks to heracles feats of kinda-tanking surtr fire with multiple buffs (definitively less, but 1 million is still more than enough here)
 
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No? I think you misunderstood the "attacks", it's more like "if a city/ally is attacked, he will notice it"
I guess you could say it like that.
I forgot how big it was, my bad. well still, even against a servant, it would make them deaf, despite them being quite a lot stronger than Agito, so at the very least he should take some damages if anything
Agito's continued to fight right after going through emergency surgery without any anesthesia and while he was still conscious. Safe to say that he could still fight even when heavily injured.
I mean he can create clones and his weapon will kinda force agito into keeping some distance, whip swords are good (although obviously unrealistic) weapons, so yeah, there's no way agito will be able to stop astolfo from doing anything. also again, machine tornador is outmatched by the griffon, as it's comparable to a martial servant strength wise and can be intangible
Agito was able to see that the EoW was possessing the body of a girl so finding out who's the real Astolfo wouldn't be hard. The Machine Tornador is essentially like surf board that Agito rides on as it flies. The griffon isn't fighting the Machine Tornador.
actually it was not added but they peak at something stupid like 4 millions thanks to heracles feats of kinda-tanking surtr fire with multiple buffs (definitively less, but 1 million is still more than enough here)
Huh, well damn.
 

TypeOU

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Agito's continued to fight right after going through emergency surgery without any anesthesia and while he was still conscious. Safe to say that he could still fight even when heavily injured.
it's not about the injury, it's about being dead, the whip sword would just cut right through him and decapitate him or destroy his heart if it gets a clean hit
Agito was able to see that the EoW was possessing the body of a girl so finding out who's the real Astolfo wouldn't be hard.
tbh I wasn't even thinking about that, just being attacked by multiple opponents all superior/equal to you and with a malleable weapon is enough of a pain
The Machine Tornador is essentially like surf board that Agito rides on as it flies. The griffon isn't fighting the Machine Tornador.
I mean my point was that the hippogriff (yeah wrong name, altho it's basically the same thing sooo) is a better flying mount, it can fight, is living so easier to dodge with since it can move by itself and it can become intangible (and invisible) for a short time)
Huh, well damn.
yeah I think it was only mentionned recently and it's kind of a huge buff to their heat resist
 
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it's not about the injury, it's about being dead, the whip sword would just cut right through him and decapitate him or destroy his heart if it gets a clean hit
Really? Cuz like, they're stats are pretty equal. You could say that one has the advantage but it'd really won't matter.
tbh I wasn't even thinking about that, just being attacked by multiple opponents all superior/equal to you and with a malleable weapon is enough of a pain
Gotcha. Do these guys follow like shadow clone logic or something? Agito's attacks, which i actually forgot to mention, can make target explode from the inside out. I know that servants resist explosions but I don't think it's 1 to 1 with what Agito's doing. Here's a clip.
I mean my point was that the hippogriff (yeah wrong name, altho it's basically the same thing sooo) is a better flying mount, it can fight, is living so easier to dodge with since it can move by itself and it can become intangible (and invisible) for a short time)
Oh okay, yeah I'd agree that the hippogriff if the better for flying combat.

Also please tell me it just a flying hippo with wings
 

TypeOU

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Really? Cuz like, they're stats are pretty equal. You could say that one has the advantage but it'd really won't matter.

Gotcha. Do these guys follow like shadow clone logic or something? Agito's attacks, which i actually forgot to mention, can make target explode from the inside out. I know that servants resist explosions but I don't think it's 1 to 1 with what Agito's doing. Here's a clip.

Oh okay, yeah I'd agree that the hippogriff if the better for flying combat.

Also please tell me it just a flying hippo with wings
2.5x isn't really equal tho, astolfo has equal to slightly better skills and I would argue that his weapon is better

Dunno if servants have a resistance to explosions but I think astolfo luck should do the trick here? Maybe? Seems pretty instant death-ey to me. Or maybe it's really just an attack with regular damages? In which case it would hurt astolfo if he doesn't have a resistance but not kill him. And the clones aren't shadow clone type, they should be as resilient as the og altho if the og die they should disappear

sadly no , it's a half horse half eagle, compared to the griffon horse eagle lion
 
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The explosion resistance from servants it's because they don't have any problem living in the Age of Gods which make normal humans explode instantly from the mana.

I just noticed this but soul manip is another win con for Astolfo.
 
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I they're they're equal since they're higher far stronger then where they're calced at. Agito more so since he stomped someone who's caually 10 GT while, if I'm reading your post correctly, Astolfo is 3x higher than 25 GT.

Servant's explosion resistances comes from them being unaffected by having their mana being messed with. But with Agito, he's just punching people when they blow up. I honestly don't know if it'd count as an instakill or not. A lot of his attacks could do this, (Kicks, punches, sword swings), and the way it happens is like, Agito punches you and you explode. The explosion is what kill people but the attack itself doesn't kill them.

Huh wha- Dude, there's hippo in the name >:V
 
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I just noticed this but soul manip is another win con for Astolfo.
Depending how they do it. If they just punch through you and rip out your soul...yeah this is a mismatch. But if they need to kill them first to consume it, then they it really shouldn't affect the battle much.
 
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Depending how they do it. If they just punch through you and rip out your soul...yeah this is a mismatch. But if they need to kill them first to consume it, then they it really shouldn't affect the battle much.
The combat applicable soul manip are spiritual attacks, so probably a mismatch. Thinking about it, there is kamer rider who figth from distance? If there is one then maybe would be better change it to him/her.
 
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Most riders are either too weak or too strong for Astolfo. The only one that can fight at a range and still are within 6-C is G3. Although G3-X has a gatling gun with 288 bullets, each one being stronger than Agito Burning's strongest attack. He doesn't have soul resistance sooooo. I guess that'd be more fair. But the constant barrage Island level bullets might be too much.

Funny enough, G3-X comes from the same season as Agito and is considered the underdog of the team.
 
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Most riders are either too weak or too strong for Astolfo. The only one that can fight at a range and still are within 6-C is G3. Although G3-X has a gatling gun with 288 bullets, each one being stronger than Agito Burning's strongest attack. He doesn't have soul resistance sooooo. I guess that'd be more fair. But the constant barrage Island level bullets might be too much.
Maybe could be more plausible, Astolfo at least should have options with the clones, hipo and so. I think it could be interesting.
 
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The problem is, most of Hikawa arsenals are comes from modern technologies so it got nope'd by servants immunity against modern era attack

If you guys want, i can just use Zero-One's Riders or Kuuga himself, tho Zero-One's Riders also had a same problem as Hikawa/G-3X has
 
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But honestly, i still believe it's not a a mismatch

And as for combat applicable soul hax, i still have no idea about that since Medusa statement are too vague to begin with
 
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Also, he can adjust his hearing for reduced the damage from La Black Luna, still take a damage but not in fatal way for sure, and for AP difference he still catch up with rage empowerment

Skill-wise i forgot but how old the Unknown is? The thing i remember they are stronger than Gurongi tribes
 

Jamesthetaker

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I'll vote Incon for now. They are pretty comparable in skills from what i could tell and their abilities are quite useful against other.
 

Jamesthetaker

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Burning Agito's one shot a 10 gigatons and can amp himself, while Saber is at least 2.5x stronger. Agito probably have trouble at first but he will eventually close the gap since it isn't a big one.

Apparently, Agito's flames is hotter than Servant resistance which is a plus for him but Astolfo have Duplication and Intangibility. I can't really decide which one will give them an solid chance at winning so Incon for now.
 
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Not truly vague as the soul hax tbh

But it said Herc tanked Surtr flames with multiple buff so i think without the buffs, Herc would probably get reckt, meaning normal servants can't scale from it, but that just me
 
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Not truly vague as the soul hax tbh

But it said Herc tanked Surtr flames with multiple buff so i think without the buffs, Herc would probably get reckt, meaning normal servants can't scale from it, but that just me
The soul attack isn't really vague, even less considering that servants many times damage their spirits origins.

I mean, I'm pretty sure others servants were near the figth and near Surtr in general in the whole lostbelt, so they should scale to that.
 

Jamesthetaker

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I'm curious about the context of whole fight because Surtr is Low 1-C and how did Herc manage to survived his flames.
 
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Did other Servants actually tanked Surtr flames or it is just Herc did?
In the Lostbelt the rest of servants also fought against him (Sigurd, Bryn, a Valkirie, Mash, etc), Heracles actually isn't even one of the servants in the Lostbelt, Sitonai just can summon him temporally because fanservice.
I'm curious about the context of whole fight because Surtr is Low 1-C and how did Herc manage to survived his flames.
I don't remember in what point is the screenshot of Heracles so I would also like to know the context of it, because I think isn't the final battle against Surtr.
 
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So why isn't they Low 1-C then?
Because to defeat the guy many things were needed, like always when a figth against someone of their level happen. Help from Skadi, Mash defense is already tier 1, Sitonai if she had a profile would be tier 1, the eye of Ophelia, and probably more that I'm forgetting.
That's.....actually a good question
I remeber a mention about possible make Sigurd tier 1 but don't know what happened with that.
 

TypeOU

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I they're they're equal since they're higher far stronger then where they're calced at. Agito more so since he stomped someone who's caually 10 GT while, if I'm reading your post correctly, Astolfo is 3x higher than 25 GT.
nah 3x is something else. And even if they're both far stronger than what they're calced, astolfo would still be 2.5 times stronger
Servant's explosion resistances comes from them being unaffected by having their mana being messed with. But with Agito, he's just punching people when they blow up. I honestly don't know if it'd count as an instakill or not. A lot of his attacks could do this, (Kicks, punches, sword swings), and the way it happens is like, Agito punches you and you explode. The explosion is what kill people but the attack itself doesn't kill them.
I mean things like heart crushing count as instant kill, so if it just inflict damages, astolfo can tank, and otherwise his luck should kick in. also I personnally think his explosion manipulation resistance should works but IDK
Huh wha- Dude, there's hippo in the name >:V
hippo means horse iirc
 

TypeOU

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I remeber a mention about possible make Sigurd tier 1 but don't know what happened with that.
I think it was me, I was talking about how he can rival surtr with gram and gram is supposed to be equal to excalibur, which should be its unsealed AP, probably gonna make multiple threads for the god tier soon
 
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I think it was me, I was talking about how he can rival surtr with gram and gram is supposed to be equal to excalibur, which should be its unsealed AP, probably gonna make multiple threads for the god tier soon
Should mentioned that Sigurd need his Surtr-Sigurd key too
Basically yes (servants are used to getting smurf resistance), but herc need buffs from some servants to hold his flames
Then only Herc that should get the Low 1-C durability, but even he need some of buffs to tanked it

The others should only get the resistance from Surtr flame
 
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nah 3x is something else. And even if they're both far stronger than what they're calced, astolfo would still be 2.5 times stronger
Well how big is his scale chain. I already said Agito's chain.
I mean things like heart crushing count as instant kill, so if it just inflict damages, astolfo can tank, and otherwise his luck should kick in. also I personnally think his explosion manipulation resistance should works but IDK
The reason why I don't think it's an instakill is because there's been people who can negate it and others who's durability allows them to survive multiple kick before exploding.
hippo means horse iirc
That's dumb hippo = hippo. Imagin a flying hippo, your're giving the world's dangerous animal wings. You're asking to die. This was a missed opportunity for something amazing.
 

TypeOU

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Well how big is his scale chain. I already said Agito's chain.
it's not a scaling chain, just massively downplayed. 100 mountains ranges became 100 mountains. I've been searching the specific numbers for a while but I couldn't find anything, but a mountain range has what, 5 mountains on average?
The reason why I don't think it's an instakill is because there's been people who can negate it and others who's durability allows them to survive multiple kick before exploding.
isn't that a character with similar durability to agito? because if so, Astolfo just won't take mortal damages from it. Also you can negate instant kill attacks so kinda irrelevant
That's dumb hippo = hippo. Imagin a flying hippo, your're giving the world's dangerous animal wings. You're asking to die. This was a missed opportunity for something amazing.
could he fall on his opponent tho
 
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it's not a scaling chain, just massively downplayed. 100 mountains ranges became 100 mountains. I've been searching the specific numbers for a while but I couldn't find anything, but a mountain range has what, 5 mountains on average?
That really doesn’t explain much since we don’t have a number. Wanna day they’re equal?
isn't that a character with similar durability to agito? because if so, Astolfo just won't take mortal damages from it. Also you can negate instant kill attacks so kinda irrelevant
Which one? The white guy is Kuuga in his weakest form, which is VASTLY inferior to Burning Agito. The thing that I’m trying to say is that the explosions aren’t instant kills so I’d think it should work on Astolfo.
could he fall on his opponent tho
So you’re telling me a ton of meat is gonna fall randomly from the sky. That’s dangerous bro.
 

TypeOU

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That really doesn’t explain much since we don’t have a number. Wanna day they’re equal?
I'm saying it's 5 times higher than calculated. how do we define casual/stomp? x2? x3? he would need a x4 to make it equal.
hich one? The white guy is Kuuga in his weakest form, which is VASTLY inferior to Burning Agito. The thing that I’m trying to say is that the explosions aren’t instant kills so I’d think it should work on Astolfo.
yeah, but they shouldn't one shot him either exactly because of that
So you’re telling me a ton of meat is gonna fall randomly from the sky. That’s dangerous bro.
exactly!
 
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I'm saying it's 5 times higher than calculated. how do we define casual/stomp? x2? x3? he would need a x4 to make it equal.
When talking about the storm feat, we really don't know how casual EoW way. We know that it was vastly inferior to his full potential since he didn't want to kill the people on the boat. As for stomps, I'd actually say it's 4-5x stronger, since a 3x difference is being overpowered while a 7.5x difference is oneshot. So Burning Agito is vastly higher than 4-5x the storm feat.
yeah, but they shouldn't one shot him either exactly because of that
In the video, Kuuga needed to land multiple hits in since the person was fighting had higher durability. In this case, I don't think either have a big durability advantage.
I cant believe we agreed on something totally not related to the actual debate.
 

TypeOU

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When talking about the storm feat, we really don't know how casual EoW way. We know that it was vastly inferior to his full potential since he didn't want to kill the people on the boat. As for stomps, I'd actually say it's 4-5x stronger, since a 3x difference is being overpowered while a 7.5x difference is oneshot. So Burning Agito is vastly higher than 4-5x the storm feat.
your numbers are a bit big, one shot at 7.5x? is it like the numbers officially used on vs battles? because most verses would put one shot at x2 to x4
In the video, Kuuga needed to land multiple hits in since the person was fighting had higher durability. In this case, I don't think either have a big durability advantage.
damn I misunderstood, thought you meant that agito punched the guy who is way weaker and didn't one shot him. well still, if it's not an instant kill move, it's safe to scale it from AP
I cant believe we agreed on something totally not related to the actual debate.
wdym this has EVERYTHING to do with the debate
 
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your numbers are a bit big, one shot at 7.5x? is it like the numbers officially used on vs battles? because most verses would put one shot at x2 to x4
Yeah, here is the link to it. So you don't have to go through the entire page, I'll just point out what it says.
Some important points to consider regarding this guideline are listed below:

  • The gap of 7.5x is based on the difference between a street level character and a human level character, with the former being commonly accepted as capable of one-shotting the latter,
There's other factors like a character being casual, hitting weak points, the character surviving but that wouldn't matter when it comes to Agito scaling.
damn I misunderstood, thought you meant that agito punched the guy who is way weaker and didn't one shot him. well still, if it's not an instant kill move, it's safe to scale it from AP
The hit itself is just an enhanced attack, the explosion is what's gonna do Astolfo in.
wdym this has EVERYTHING to do with the debate
YOU'RE RIGHT, Flyinghippo FRA.
 

TypeOU

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Yeah, here is the link to it. So you don't have to go through the entire page, I'll just point out what it says.
Some important points to consider regarding this guideline are listed below:

  • The gap of 7.5x is based on the difference between a street level character and a human level character, with the former being commonly accepted as capable of one-shotting the latter,
"In order for a one-shot to happen, Fighter A's attack must have an Attack Potency that's quite above Fighter B's Durability. The gap needed to qualify varies from verse to verse, which makes a one-shot from a VS Battles standpoint very hard to determine. What can be certain is that if Fighter A is in a different tier than Fighter B (ex: Fighter A is Planet level and Fighter B is Moon level), then most likely, Fighter A can one-shot the opponent."

that's how it works for a scaling chain, the 7.5x thing is to one-shot your opponent in a vs thread.

  • This gap is strictly for versus debating purposes, and will not apply when attempting to derive the attack potency of a character based on a feat of one-shotting another character in his or her verse.

The hit itself is just an enhanced attack, the explosion is what's gonna do Astolfo in.
not what I meant. I'm saying that if the explosion isn't an instant kill, it won't just kill astolfo. He will be hurt, sure, but not one shot
YOU'RE RIGHT, Flyinghippo FRA.
glad we can agree on that
 
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"In order for a one-shot to happen, Fighter A's attack must have an Attack Potency that's quite above Fighter B's Durability. The gap needed to qualify varies from verse to verse, which makes a one-shot from a VS Battles standpoint very hard to determine. What can be certain is that if Fighter A is in a different tier than Fighter B (ex: Fighter A is Planet level and Fighter B is Moon level), then most likely, Fighter A can one-shot the opponent."

that's how it works for a scaling chain, the 7.5x thing is to one-shot your opponent in a vs thread.

  • This gap is strictly for versus debating purposes, and will not apply when attempting to derive the attack potency of a character based on a feat of one-shotting another character in his or her verse.
Like I said in my post above, I don’t really see how that’d changed my in Agito scaling. I agree that oneshots are different from verse to verse but Agito still stomped someone who’s casually 10 GT.

not what I meant. I'm saying that if the explosion isn't an instant kill, it won't just kill astolfo. He will be hurt, sure, but not one shot
I mean he’s being blown up from the inside out
 

TypeOU

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Like I said in my post above, I don’t really see how that’d changed my in Agito scaling. I agree that oneshots are different from verse to verse but Agito still stomped someone who’s casually 10 GT.
because x7.5 is just the thread one shot multiplier and explicitly shouldn't be used for scaling? With no further indication, there's no reason to assume stomping and doing casually are more than 2 x2, and like I said above, servants were heavily lowballed and are most likely closer to 125GT.
I mean he’s being blown up from the inside out
so did agito, and he survived, assuming that it would one shot astolfo or incap him when he actually has a MASSIVE AP advantage is just wrong
 
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because x7.5 is just the thread one shot multiplier and explicitly shouldn't be used for scaling? With no further indication, there's no reason to assume stomping and doing casually are more than 2 x2, and like I said above, servants were heavily lowballed and are most likely closer to 125GT.
Yeah 7.5x is for crossversing but the fact still stands that the storm feat was very casual and Agito still killed him in a few hits.
so did agito, and he survived, assuming that it would one shot astolfo or incap him when he actually has a MASSIVE AP advantage is just wrong
I don’t remember saying that Agito survived his explosion. If you’re talking about the video I sent, that’s a different rider. It’s just an example I’m showing. I can send you another video of another rider’s explosion working on a person with similar durability. It’s just that’s people with higher durability take more to explode.
 

TypeOU

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Yeah 7.5x is for crossversing but the fact still stands that the storm feat was very casual and Agito still killed him in a few hits.

I don’t remember saying that Agito survived his explosion. If you’re talking about the video I sent, that’s a different rider. It’s just an example I’m showing. I can send you another video of another rider’s explosion working on a person with similar durability. It’s just that’s people with higher durability take more to explode.

And you can't just assume that it's a x4 or x5, just because. You underestimate how big of a gap x2 already is

they kinda all look the same tbh I mean yeah, just further proving my point that astolfo wouldn't instantly die. Well he has his resistance anyway
 
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Sorry for sounding like a broken record but the context of the storm and Agito's first appearance wasn't at all made to look like either characters highest showing. A 2x gap doesn't give a character enough power to kill them in under 30 seconds. It might be in Fate, but not in Rider. For example, G4 was statistically stronger in G3-X in every way, potentially to the point where G4 could've beaten Shining Agito, EX Gills, and G3-X at the same time. Pretty much solidifying that G4 was stronger than G3-X, yet, G3 was capable of holding his ground and push him back. TLDR: Rider portray differences as massive gaps in their AP. Characters who are weaker could still hold their ground against stronger ones. And a much bigger gap is needed to do what Agito did

Ugh, the video was deleted. Well, for Astolfo's resistance, I don't know how it'd work. Since he resisted getting his mana being messed around with which would've lead with him exploding. Agito just makes people explode, no mana messing.
 

Jamesthetaker

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I don't believe either of them have AP advantage in here. Sure Astolfo was a bit stronger than Agito at first but 2x AP isn't enough to give a decisive win and the latter casually stomped 10 gigatons character and can amp himself so physical strength matter less.

Agito's explosion happened when he performing a finishers or one-shotting. I do think that Astolfo resistance is enough but won't prevent him from getting hurt.
 
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From the servant pyshiology, it said that the explosion resistance came from the high amount of mana from Age of Gods, meanwhile most of Riders with explosion manipulation doesn't requires mana, they just exploded in contact

Still Astolfo can withstand it, but definitely not gonna resist it since it isn't mana based, then again i can be wrong here lel
 
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any tldr? im ready to vote
I'll do one on Agito, a more knowledgeable Fate supporter can do one for Astolfo.

They're equal on their stats and skills, which really comes down to abilities. While I don't know much about Astolfo's set, Agito's Burning Punch and Kick would definitely injure Astolfo, they enhance Agito's physical strength significantly while also making Astolfo explode from the inside out. Although, you can argue if it could work or not since Servants resist explosion manip but the way they do is different from Agito's.

That pretty much covers most of Agito's portion.
 
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To Astolfo he have duplication, intangibility (one different to the intangibility in Spirit Form), sound explosions, supernatural luck, higher AP with np and soul attacks.
 

Jamesthetaker

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Servant doesn't use Spirit Form in combat.

Sound manipulation got nulled by Agito's enhanced senses.

I don't know about Supernatural luck since it's unlikely for it to work in a battle. Most Servants doesn't use Soul manipulation in-character tbh.

How does Vulcano Caligorante work because Agito could just dodge it.
 
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That’d actually be pretty hard to dodge, but Vel says that he doesn’t but pull it out until he needs it. So Agito still has time to do his explosion manip
 
astolfo intangibility is different from servant spirit form, it's his skill


Crazy Trip Drive Idol: Idol of Uncontrolled Rampage: The power of the Hippogriff from when Astolfo is summoned as a Rider. Everywhere, but also nowhere. Able to become an existence of numerical imagination, breaking through enemy formations. In detail, it's the ability of Astolfo making multiple clones and fading in and out of existence, thus avoiding attacks. Furthermore, in the event of a worst-case scenario, Astolfo is able to temporarily multiply the number of clones.
 
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I don't believe either of them have AP advantage in here. Sure Astolfo was a bit stronger than Agito at first but 2x AP isn't enough to give a decisive win and the latter casually stomped 10 gigatons character and can amp himself so physical strength matter less.
So again, AP difference isn't matter here
 
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except that they aren't? either you use what their AP should really look like or you don't and use their "official" AP, you can't just use it for agito and not for Astolfo
I mean, we did that and you said that Agito needs to be 4x stronger to make it equal. I still think that Agito could close that gap with how Rider treats it’s scaling. Even then, like how Vel pointed out, AP really wouldn’t make a difference here. They’re either equal or ones stronger than the other, but not to the point where I’d be the deciding factor of the fight.
 

TypeOU

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I mean, we did that and you said that Agito needs to be 4x stronger to make it equal. I still think that Agito could close that gap with how Rider treats it’s scaling. Even then, like how Vel pointed out, AP really wouldn’t make a difference here. They’re either equal or ones stronger than the other, but not to the point where I’d be the deciding factor of the fight.
I was saying that he need both buff to be a 4x, not that he would need to get a total 4x

Agito starts at 10GT, he stomped someone who could casually do a 10 GT feats, with no further indication, the boost isn't gonna make him even close to astolfo, who was calced at 25GT with a misunderstanding and is actually at 125GT on average. For Agito to even get close to astolfo, he would need both buff to be respectively a x3 and a x4, which definitively isn't something you would give when there really isn't anything more than "he stomped" and "he did casually".

even assuming doing it casually means he was going at half of his full power, and stomping someone means being 3 times stronger -which are both pretty high value for most verses btw, 3 times stronger is enough to one shot your opponent in most verses-, he would still only have half of astolfo stats.

And then you have their abilities. Agito has what, fire, wind and explosive moves? Astolfo being able to create true clones and turning intangible is much better, especially since he can resist heat and explosions
 
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Explosion still gonna affect him slightly since it's non-mana based, heat is out but the fire attack still a deal

You also ignored that Shouichi had a enhanced sense that he can adjust, alongside extraordinary perception, damage reduction, rage power, and (for some reason, Agito supporters didn't bring this out) regen negation
 

TypeOU

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Explosion still gonna affect him slightly since it's non-mana based, heat is out but the fire attack still a deal

You also ignored that Shouichi had a enhanced sense that he can adjust, alongside extraordinary perception, damage reduction, rage power, and (for some reason, Agito supporters didn't bring this out) regen negation
extrasensory perception is pointless here, it's just detection. Enhanced senses aren't really a game changer. Damage reduction only applies to impact on the anklet, dunno how much rage power buff him and if his feats were when he was buffed, or even if he woudl be angry fighting astolfo to begin with, and regen negation isn't a major factor since the servant regen isn't
 
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Yeah, from what i remember servants rarely regenerated from their wounds, with some exception like Hinako who regen herself after used "suicide is badass" NP

Well even if it just an detection it still gonna help him for sure, same with enhanced sense despite not a game changer

For Rage Power imagine SS2 Teen Gohan i believe
 

IxaSaga2

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Agito's 10 GT feat starts from El of the Water who made a storm casually which means with no effort at all. El of the Water is able to stomp Agito base forms, Gills and G3-X (who can amp his power to several tens of times) all at once. When Agito turned into Burning Form for the first time, he one shotted a monster who was stronger than or equal to Gills and G3-X and defeated El of the Water with 2 slashes from Shining Caliber in the same fight. El of the Water evolved further to his Strengthened form which stomps Agito Burning Form + G3-X + Gills EX + Another Agito. After seeing G3-X get incaped by El of the Water, Agito in Burning Form with rage power sent El of the Water flying with Burning Rider Punch. El of the Water tanked Agito's Burning Punch, Gills EX's EX Heel Claw and Another Agito's Assault Kick. Only Agito Shining form's Shining Rider kick was able to finish him off.
 
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During the G4 movie, Gills, G3 and Agito were all at the same level of strength, yet G4 could've still fought all three of them, even killing all three in a separate timeline. We could say that G4 was 3x stronger than G3, yet G3 was able to hold his ground against G4 for 3-4 minutes. Like what Ixa pointed out, Agito killed the EoW in two hits. Even if we want to say that the EoW was using half for that storm feat and the difference between him and Agito is only 3x, which is likely higher due to how long G4 and G3 lasted, he'd be at least 60 GTs. The gap is even closer when we say the difference in power is 4-5x, which is likely the actual difference when comparing to other fights in the show.
 
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