Lunatic Knight meet the "Messiah" (Astolfo vs Kamen Rider Agito)

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

So by that then the unknowns (and Lord) are more skilled then the Gurongi tribes except Daguva, right?

 

[BERRIES555]

Yeah, the Lords were, in every way, superior to the Gurongis.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Well, that mean Agito and Astolfo skills are pretty comparable to say

 

[Jamesthetaker]

I'll vote Incon for now. They are pretty comparable in skills from what i could tell and their abilities are quite useful against other.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I'll vote Incon for now. They are pretty comparable in skills from what i could tell and their abilities are quite useful against other.

How about the AP difference?

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Burning Agito's one shot a 10 gigatons and can amp himself, while Saber is at least 2.5x stronger. Agito probably have trouble at first but he will eventually close the gap since it isn't a big one.

Apparently, Agito's flames is hotter than Servant resistance which is a plus for him but Astolfo have Duplication and Intangibility. I can't really decide which one will give them an solid chance at winning so Incon for now.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

actually it was not added but they peak at something stupid like 4 millions thanks to heracles feats of kinda-tanking surtr fire with multiple buffs (definitively less, but 1 million is still more than enough here)

^^

 

[Jamesthetaker]

That sound kinda vague so i'll take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Not truly vague as the soul hax tbh

But it said Herc tanked Surtr flames with multiple buff so i think without the buffs, Herc would probably get reckt, meaning normal servants can't scale from it, but that just me

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Not truly vague as the soul hax tbh

But it said Herc tanked Surtr flames with multiple buff so i think without the buffs, Herc would probably get reckt, meaning normal servants can't scale from it, but that just me

The soul attack isn't really vague, even less considering that servants many times damage their spirits origins.

I mean, I'm pretty sure others servants were near the figth and near Surtr in general in the whole lostbelt, so they should scale to that.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Did other Servants actually tanked Surtr flames or it is just Herc did?

 

[Jamesthetaker]

I'm curious about the context of whole fight because Surtr is Low 1-C and how did Herc manage to survived his flames.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Did other Servants actually tanked Surtr flames or it is just Herc did?

In the Lostbelt the rest of servants also fought against him (Sigurd, Bryn, a Valkirie, Mash, etc), Heracles actually isn't even one of the servants in the Lostbelt, Sitonai just can summon him temporally because fanservice.

I'm curious about the context of whole fight because Surtr is Low 1-C and how did Herc manage to survived his flames.

I don't remember in what point is the screenshot of Heracles so I would also like to know the context of it, because I think isn't the final battle against Surtr.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

In the Lostbelt the rest of servants also fought against him (Sigurd, Bryn, a Valkirie, Mash, etc), Heracles actually isn't even one of the servants in the Lostbelt, Sitonai just can summon him temporally because fanservice.

So why isn't they Low 1-C then?

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

So why isn't they Low 1-C then?

That's.....actually a good question

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

So why isn't they Low 1-C then?

Because to defeat the guy many things were needed, like always when a figth against someone of their level happen. Help from Skadi, Mash defense is already tier 1, Sitonai if she had a profile would be tier 1, the eye of Ophelia, and probably more that I'm forgetting.

That's.....actually a good question

I remeber a mention about possible make Sigurd tier 1 but don't know what happened with that.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

My question remain:"Did they physically tanked Low 1-C flames or anything?"

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

My question remain:"Did they physically tanked Low 1-C flames or anything?"

Basically yes (servants are used to getting smurf resistance), but herc need buffs from some servants to hold his flames

 

[TypeOU]

I they're they're equal since they're higher far stronger then where they're calced at. Agito more so since he stomped someone who's caually 10 GT while, if I'm reading your post correctly, Astolfo is 3x higher than 25 GT.

nah 3x is something else. And even if they're both far stronger than what they're calced, astolfo would still be 2.5 times stronger

Servant's explosion resistances comes from them being unaffected by having their mana being messed with. But with Agito, he's just punching people when they blow up. I honestly don't know if it'd count as an instakill or not. A lot of his attacks could do this, (Kicks, punches, sword swings), and the way it happens is like, Agito punches you and you explode. The explosion is what kill people but the attack itself doesn't kill them.

I mean things like heart crushing count as instant kill, so if it just inflict damages, astolfo can tank, and otherwise his luck should kick in. also I personnally think his explosion manipulation resistance should works but IDK

Huh wha- Dude, there's hippo in the name >:V

hippo means horse iirc

 

[TypeOU]

I remeber a mention about possible make Sigurd tier 1 but don't know what happened with that.

I think it was me, I was talking about how he can rival surtr with gram and gram is supposed to be equal to excalibur, which should be its unsealed AP, probably gonna make multiple threads for the god tier soon

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I think it was me, I was talking about how he can rival surtr with gram and gram is supposed to be equal to excalibur, which should be its unsealed AP, probably gonna make multiple threads for the god tier soon

Should mentioned that Sigurd need his Surtr-Sigurd key too

Basically yes (servants are used to getting smurf resistance), but herc need buffs from some servants to hold his flames

Then only Herc that should get the Low 1-C durability, but even he need some of buffs to tanked it

The others should only get the resistance from Surtr flame

 

[BERRIES555]

nah 3x is something else. And even if they're both far stronger than what they're calced, astolfo would still be 2.5 times stronger

Well how big is his scale chain. I already said Agito's chain.

I mean things like heart crushing count as instant kill, so if it just inflict damages, astolfo can tank, and otherwise his luck should kick in. also I personnally think his explosion manipulation resistance should works but IDK

The reason why I don't think it's an instakill is because there's been people who can negate it and others who's durability allows them to survive multiple kick before exploding.

hippo means horse iirc

That's dumb hippo = hippo. Imagin a flying hippo, your're giving the world's dangerous animal wings. You're asking to die. This was a missed opportunity for something amazing.

 

[TypeOU]

Well how big is his scale chain. I already said Agito's chain.

it's not a scaling chain, just massively downplayed. 100 mountains ranges became 100 mountains. I've been searching the specific numbers for a while but I couldn't find anything, but a mountain range has what, 5 mountains on average?

The reason why I don't think it's an instakill is because there's been people who can negate it and others who's durability allows them to survive multiple kick before exploding.

isn't that a character with similar durability to agito? because if so, Astolfo just won't take mortal damages from it. Also you can negate instant kill attacks so kinda irrelevant

That's dumb hippo = hippo. Imagin a flying hippo, your're giving the world's dangerous animal wings. You're asking to die. This was a missed opportunity for something amazing.

could he fall on his opponent tho

 

[BERRIES555]

it's not a scaling chain, just massively downplayed. 100 mountains ranges became 100 mountains. I've been searching the specific numbers for a while but I couldn't find anything, but a mountain range has what, 5 mountains on average?

That really doesn’t explain much since we don’t have a number. Wanna day they’re equal?

isn't that a character with similar durability to agito? because if so, Astolfo just won't take mortal damages from it. Also you can negate instant kill attacks so kinda irrelevant

Which one? The white guy is Kuuga in his weakest form, which is VASTLY inferior to Burning Agito. The thing that I’m trying to say is that the explosions aren’t instant kills so I’d think it should work on Astolfo.

could he fall on his opponent tho

So you’re telling me a ton of meat is gonna fall randomly from the sky. That’s dangerous bro.

 

[TypeOU]

That really doesn’t explain much since we don’t have a number. Wanna day they’re equal?

I'm saying it's 5 times higher than calculated. how do we define casual/stomp? x2? x3? he would need a x4 to make it equal.

hich one? The white guy is Kuuga in his weakest form, which is VASTLY inferior to Burning Agito. The thing that I’m trying to say is that the explosions aren’t instant kills so I’d think it should work on Astolfo.

yeah, but they shouldn't one shot him either exactly because of that

So you’re telling me a ton of meat is gonna fall randomly from the sky. That’s dangerous bro.

exactly!

 

[BERRIES555]

I'm saying it's 5 times higher than calculated. how do we define casual/stomp? x2? x3? he would need a x4 to make it equal.

When talking about the storm feat, we really don't know how casual EoW way. We know that it was vastly inferior to his full potential since he didn't want to kill the people on the boat. As for stomps, I'd actually say it's 4-5x stronger, since a 3x difference is being overpowered while a 7.5x difference is oneshot. So Burning Agito is vastly higher than 4-5x the storm feat.

yeah, but they shouldn't one shot him either exactly because of that

In the video, Kuuga needed to land multiple hits in since the person was fighting had higher durability. In this case, I don't think either have a big durability advantage.

exactly!

I cant believe we agreed on something totally not related to the actual debate.

 

[TypeOU]

When talking about the storm feat, we really don't know how casual EoW way. We know that it was vastly inferior to his full potential since he didn't want to kill the people on the boat. As for stomps, I'd actually say it's 4-5x stronger, since a 3x difference is being overpowered while a 7.5x difference is oneshot. So Burning Agito is vastly higher than 4-5x the storm feat.

your numbers are a bit big, one shot at 7.5x? is it like the numbers officially used on vs battles? because most verses would put one shot at x2 to x4

In the video, Kuuga needed to land multiple hits in since the person was fighting had higher durability. In this case, I don't think either have a big durability advantage.

damn I misunderstood, thought you meant that agito punched the guy who is way weaker and didn't one shot him. well still, if it's not an instant kill move, it's safe to scale it from AP

I cant believe we agreed on something totally not related to the actual debate.

wdym this has EVERYTHING to do with the debate

 

[BERRIES555]

your numbers are a bit big, one shot at 7.5x? is it like the numbers officially used on vs battles? because most verses would put one shot at x2 to x4

Yeah, here is the link to it. So you don't have to go through the entire page, I'll just point out what it says.
Some important points to consider regarding this guideline are listed below:

• The gap of 7.5x is based on the difference between a street level character and a human level character, with the former being commonly accepted as capable of one-shotting the latter,

There's other factors like a character being casual, hitting weak points, the character surviving but that wouldn't matter when it comes to Agito scaling.

damn I misunderstood, thought you meant that agito punched the guy who is way weaker and didn't one shot him. well still, if it's not an instant kill move, it's safe to scale it from AP

The hit itself is just an enhanced attack, the explosion is what's gonna do Astolfo in.

wdym this has EVERYTHING to do with the debate

YOU'RE RIGHT, Flyinghippo FRA.

 

[TypeOU]

Yeah, here is the link to it. So you don't have to go through the entire page, I'll just point out what it says.
Some important points to consider regarding this guideline are listed below:

• The gap of 7.5x is based on the difference between a street level character and a human level character, with the former being commonly accepted as capable of one-shotting the latter,

"In order for a one-shot to happen, Fighter A's attack must have an Attack Potency that's quite above Fighter B's Durability. The gap needed to qualify varies from verse to verse, which makes a one-shot from a VS Battles standpoint very hard to determine. What can be certain is that if Fighter A is in a different tier than Fighter B (ex: Fighter A is Planet level and Fighter B is Moon level), then most likely, Fighter A can one-shot the opponent."

that's how it works for a scaling chain, the 7.5x thing is to one-shot your opponent in a vs thread.

• This gap is strictly for versus debating purposes, and will not apply when attempting to derive the attack potency of a character based on a feat of one-shotting another character in his or her verse.

The hit itself is just an enhanced attack, the explosion is what's gonna do Astolfo in.

not what I meant. I'm saying that if the explosion isn't an instant kill, it won't just kill astolfo. He will be hurt, sure, but not one shot

YOU'RE RIGHT, Flyinghippo FRA.

glad we can agree on that

 

[BERRIES555]

"In order for a one-shot to happen, Fighter A's attack must have an Attack Potency that's quite above Fighter B's Durability. The gap needed to qualify varies from verse to verse, which makes a one-shot from a VS Battles standpoint very hard to determine. What can be certain is that if Fighter A is in a different tier than Fighter B (ex: Fighter A is Planet level and Fighter B is Moon level), then most likely, Fighter A can one-shot the opponent."

that's how it works for a scaling chain, the 7.5x thing is to one-shot your opponent in a vs thread.

• This gap is strictly for versus debating purposes, and will not apply when attempting to derive the attack potency of a character based on a feat of one-shotting another character in his or her verse.

Like I said in my post above, I don’t really see how that’d changed my in Agito scaling. I agree that oneshots are different from verse to verse but Agito still stomped someone who’s casually 10 GT.

not what I meant. I'm saying that if the explosion isn't an instant kill, it won't just kill astolfo. He will be hurt, sure, but not one shot

I mean he’s being blown up from the inside out

 

[TypeOU]

Like I said in my post above, I don’t really see how that’d changed my in Agito scaling. I agree that oneshots are different from verse to verse but Agito still stomped someone who’s casually 10 GT.

because x7.5 is just the thread one shot multiplier and explicitly shouldn't be used for scaling? With no further indication, there's no reason to assume stomping and doing casually are more than 2 x2, and like I said above, servants were heavily lowballed and are most likely closer to 125GT.

I mean he’s being blown up from the inside out

so did agito, and he survived, assuming that it would one shot astolfo or incap him when he actually has a MASSIVE AP advantage is just wrong

 

[BERRIES555]

because x7.5 is just the thread one shot multiplier and explicitly shouldn't be used for scaling? With no further indication, there's no reason to assume stomping and doing casually are more than 2 x2, and like I said above, servants were heavily lowballed and are most likely closer to 125GT.

Yeah 7.5x is for crossversing but the fact still stands that the storm feat was very casual and Agito still killed him in a few hits.

so did agito, and he survived, assuming that it would one shot astolfo or incap him when he actually has a MASSIVE AP advantage is just wrong

I don’t remember saying that Agito survived his explosion. If you’re talking about the video I sent, that’s a different rider. It’s just an example I’m showing. I can send you another video of another rider’s explosion working on a person with similar durability. It’s just that’s people with higher durability take more to explode.

 

[TypeOU]

Yeah 7.5x is for crossversing but the fact still stands that the storm feat was very casual and Agito still killed him in a few hits.

I don’t remember saying that Agito survived his explosion. If you’re talking about the video I sent, that’s a different rider. It’s just an example I’m showing. I can send you another video of another rider’s explosion working on a person with similar durability. It’s just that’s people with higher durability take more to explode.

And you can't just assume that it's a x4 or x5, just because. You underestimate how big of a gap x2 already is

they kinda all look the same tbh I mean yeah, just further proving my point that astolfo wouldn't instantly die. Well he has his resistance anyway

 

[BERRIES555]

Sorry for sounding like a broken record but the context of the storm and Agito's first appearance wasn't at all made to look like either characters highest showing. A 2x gap doesn't give a character enough power to kill them in under 30 seconds. It might be in Fate, but not in Rider. For example, G4 was statistically stronger in G3-X in every way, potentially to the point where G4 could've beaten Shining Agito, EX Gills, and G3-X at the same time. Pretty much solidifying that G4 was stronger than G3-X, yet, G3 was capable of holding his ground and push him back. TLDR: Rider portray differences as massive gaps in their AP. Characters who are weaker could still hold their ground against stronger ones. And a much bigger gap is needed to do what Agito did

Ugh, the video was deleted. Well, for Astolfo's resistance, I don't know how it'd work. Since he resisted getting his mana being messed around with which would've lead with him exploding. Agito just makes people explode, no mana messing.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

BUMP!!

 

[Jamesthetaker]

I don't believe either of them have AP advantage in here. Sure Astolfo was a bit stronger than Agito at first but 2x AP isn't enough to give a decisive win and the latter casually stomped 10 gigatons character and can amp himself so physical strength matter less.

Agito's explosion happened when he performing a finishers or one-shotting. I do think that Astolfo resistance is enough but won't prevent him from getting hurt.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

From the servant pyshiology, it said that the explosion resistance came from the high amount of mana from Age of Gods, meanwhile most of Riders with explosion manipulation doesn't requires mana, they just exploded in contact

Still Astolfo can withstand it, but definitely not gonna resist it since it isn't mana based, then again i can be wrong here lel

 

[Jamesthetaker]

The result are the same, even if the method are different.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

The result are the same, even if the method are different.

Yeah, that's what i believe right now

Also side note: the reason why i put the battle in night time because in day he can transform into Shining Form by absorbt the light of sun

 

[Loyd]

any tldr? im ready to vote