Ace Ukiyo Vs Ayanokoji Kiyotaka: The Genius And The Cunning Fox (7-1-2) GRACE

[Catbowtie]

Oh wow, a match where Kiyotaka doesn't skill stomp + ANPR GGs? Can't believe that Supernatural luck is what does him in. Anyways, Ace knocks-out Kiyotaka For Reasons Above.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Counted

 

[V-King]

I guess Ace wins this.

 

[Hiiilt]

Ace fra

 

[Shadowslash125]

Counted, counted and grace!

 

[BERRIES555]

Breaking News: Super Celebrity, Ukiyo Ace, beats up local high schooler after “Yo Mama” jokes becomes to personal.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Does he kill or does he put sand in his eye?

 

[BERRIES555]

Nah, even if Koji did talk shit about Ace’s mom, I don’t think Ace would kill him

 

[Catbowtie]

Does he kill or does he put sand in his eye?

How does this matter? (Genuine question)

 

[Shadowslash125]

It doesn't matter, we're just joking and I asked if Ace will kill Koji for dissing his mom or will he just put sand in his eye.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I vote Koji for the following reasons;

Skill - This part here is troublesome for Koji in the beginning as Ace is more skilled than him by a fair margin, However Koji has instant AD and power mimicry that will let him overcome this gap insanely quick, So this point is irrelevant

ANPR - Koji can predict via a shit ton of factors as i and Reggor mentioned which Ace has no answer and Koji also has a massive scaling chain which again, Ace has no answer to that, You guys have been ignoring methods and potency of Koji's ANPR which is just foul, Koji can easily predict where he will dodge and attack him there in the pressure points with high accuracy, I don't see Ace touching him anytime soon, Not only that, Koji also has resistence to ANPR where he can attack with unpredictable patterns where Ace doesn't have the ANPR potency to evade it, His body movement method gets easily countered by Koji because Albert also tried to predict Koji based on body movement only to get hit in the throat, Koji can consistently outpredict his opponents with high level ANPR such as Tsukishiro who can read your mind with cold reading

LS - Given how Koji has the massive LS in this matchup, 1 grab means it's the end of Ace, Koji can easily twist his neck, break his arms or legs and end the match with LS, I don't know why Dino said this is useless when Koji can legit grab Ace quite easily with his ANPR

Luck - Ayanokouji is highly observant and can legit multi task with said multi task stated to be capable of frying someone's brain, And he was doing this casually, He can notice Sakura was not wearing lenghts or whatever it's called in her glasses from a decent distance and also noticed the toy gun had a problem from the manufactoring, Saying the gun has a single-millimeter discrepancies, Koji is highly aware of his surroundings, He won't trip or anything, If anything he would just grab Ace's leg and break them, Making Ayanokouji win via incap

 

[Shadowslash125]

counted

 

[RoggerReggor]

The entire arguement for him winning against Donald said that he would spam pressure points and dodge until he won. If you were to remove his pressure points, he would've never harmed Donald in that match. A massive part of him winning was due to pressure points.

In the Legosi match, his better stamina wasn't mentioned once, and it all relied on the arguement that Ayano would be able to predict Legosi and know with 100% accuracy what he would do despite not being able to see him. And ofc pressure points to harm him.

And in the 3 pirates match, Stamina wasn't the major arguement, it was skill. Pressure points wasn't brought up much either, but that was pretty clearly the reasoning as to why Ayano could harm them

So using your logic, because pressure points don't have durability, if something worth 1 joule hit me on my throat, I would be gasping for air because my windpipe got crushed? A breeze blows too hard and suddenly I collapse because I got hit in the liver?

Pressure points very obviously have durability, you can't just lightly flick your throat and cause severe damage to it. There is no pressure point on the body that you can just lightly press on and suddenly you kill them. The entire reason behind pressure points is that you're attacking a part of the body that is squishier and weaker or has some other effect like the carotid strike. The only way you can cause pain via pressure points is by hitting them hard enough to damage them and cause pain in the body. If you lightly flick someones throat, you won't cause any pain in the slightest. That's why you would punch it, so that you can deal a lot of damage to the throat and, since it's a sensitive area, inflict great amounts of pain. But if someones throat is too durable for you to do any damage to because they have a 300x Durability advantage over you, you're not going to inflict enough damage on them to actually do anything.

Unless those characters that Ayano is knocking out are 20x stronger than him, then we have no proof that Ayano can cover a 20x Durability gap with just pressure points. If those characters were 20x stronger than him, then cool, he can close gaps that big with pressure points. I'd love to see the scan that says that they're 20x stronger than him, and that Ayano took them out in a single hit with just pressure points alone. Isn't the whole point of Ayano that he's the strongest in his verse?

Unless either verse consistantly has weaker characters hurt FAR stronger characters with pressure points, we assume that they cant. Ayano has never been shown hurting people with 20 - 300x his AP with his strikes, the other persons throat or liver or whatever would be too durable for Ayano to muster enough force to actually hurt them. Pressure points are not durability negation, they are just weak spots. And unless a persons weak spot has been shown to be effected by people 20 - 300x weaker than themselves, then we assume that they're relative to the persons durability, just downscaled a bit.

This whole "pressure points are 10-C" arguement really needs to stop. It's only applicable if that statement is consistantly shown in that characters verse. Unless I'm missing something from Donalds, Legosi, Suisei, or the pirates' verses that says they get harmed by PP strikes substantially weaker then them, then we assume that they cant, thus making the previous matches invalid, as that's the entire arguement as to why Ayano would be able to harm them.

I'm starting to wonder how much of the arguements you guys actually read. Me & Dino covered most of this earlier.


And unless stated otherwise, pretty much every single match that involves pressure points don't treat them in the way that you described, because that's not how they work. If you want to completley change how pressure points work on this site, you can go ahead and try to do that, I'd be down to continue this debate there. But saying that pressure points don't apply to durability is not how pressure points work. In order to attack their endurance and do damage to a pressure point, you have to put in enough force to actually damage it. And for 9-B characters, that means that you would have to put in 9-B forces in order to harm them.

Anyways, everyone else in this thread but you & Zetsu seemingly agree with me & Dino on this you 2 do seem to be the Ayano fanboys, wonder if there's any corelation with that or not so let's move on from this arguement

Luckily I explained why Ace also has other wincons outside of luck here:

Luck is just the cherry on top that confirms my vote

AnPr is a real thing that humans can do though. It's used all the time in competative sports, especially combat sports. Hell, chess requires a lot of analytical prediction. A lot of the feats in COTE that other characters pull, such as predicting the trajectory of a volleyball, is stuff real life athletes do all the dang time. And having a "narratively extraordinary" ability doesn't really matter. All that means is that the character is impressive for their verse and in their narrative, but that doesn't suddenly make it superhuman. Homelander is narratively the strongest character in The Boys TV show, but throw him up against the most fodder versions of Superman & he's getting folded in a millisecond.

It's impressive inside of the verse, but that doesn't suddenly make it superhuman. A lot of the feats the COTE characters pull, and even some of the feats Ayano does, is realistically possible with a real humans AnPr. Many of the attacks Ayano blocks, he reacts to and blocks after they were thrown, which athletic humans can do by predicting where the attack is going to land and blocking/dodging it before it can reach them. I agree that Ayano's AnPr is above any real humans capabilities, but you guys treat it like it's spider-sense or like it's Ethan Morgan's seer abilities. It's not. Ayano is better at it than any human, but claiming that he becomes an untouchable god with it is a bit silly, he makes mistakes with his predictions and a good enough fighter can definetly overcome it.

Isn't the main reason Ayano is so good at doging in his verse because he speed blitz a majority of them? I would think that having better speed than pretty much everyone in his verse would make it easier for him to dodge their attacks

Alright, so about the Pressure Points, I myself said that how it's dependent on stamina and stuff than being mainly Pressure Points. About its mention, each of those threads have it mentioned in the OP that Kiyotaka has a stamina advantage, and a good one, for that.

And yes, in battle when a character is exerting force and is in a fine condition, Pressure Points may not do much to 300x difference, but it is an attack to someone's endurance, and basically can and will lower the stamina with time. It is on the ability page and only characters who have a direct resistance to the ability are not vulnerable to that. All of what you debated with me, or at least tried to don't happen to be my own points, they are more related and given by Zetsu.

Spoiler: yap

About me being a Kiyotaka fan, so yes, I am a Kiyotaka fan. And it doesn't take a genius to understand that. I have listed myself as one of the supporters of the verse on the wiki, tried to create a general discussion about the verse and be very active with that, and am following the COTE community from 5 years and also am a scaler of a character's psychological feats than their physical aspects, and that's why I love debating the psychological aspects of a fight than them purely being unrelated hax or physical aspects. But again, if your primary reason to believe that that happens to be that I often vote Kiyotaka in his matchups or that I often try to argue from his side, then it's just plain rubbish. It would mean that you have read the novel, have the best research about the character, and are knowledgeable enough about the verse for being able to write stuff in counters. And yes, there's no need to debate it. There are tons of people on the wiki who only scale a single verse and not

About the AnPr part, that's just arguments from incredulity. I will be saying "His AnPr is OP" and your natural reaction to that will be "It is not", so I cannot do anything about your presumptions about some character's ability. My stance in the thread is still the same, and also happens to be the same with all the other threads.

If you have any problems about why I "overhype" his ability, then just know that many people who have never read the novels or just happen to be overly cautious with the verse's past ratings (and I really appreciate that and don't mean it in a bad way. Revisions are a natural and a very necessary process) were ready to nuke his AnPr, an ability which is actually pretty common among the COTE high tiers and was going to be removed for just the profiles lacking a lot of stuff. So, I researched for about 2 months about his ability, considering how scattered the information about his ability really is. Considering his ability or countering his feats with NLF is just not ok, he has pulled off most of the stuff which an opponent can do. And you do realize, reading someone's physical upper limits means that they are invulnerable to the most physical attacks. He has been in many fights since his debut, and except for side tricks or his own will, he has never been touched in a fight for once, and I am not even kidding, you can read the entire 20+ volume of series and see that. What I follow is accepted on his profile, and I am both annoyed and tired from his abilities being undermined, or being compared to characters who are worse than even some COTE characters who Kiyotaka widely outscales.

I am not comparing his ability to Spider Senses, because they aren't comparable at all. The latter is just very supernatural than being illogical (currently) like Kiyotaka's ability. Spider Senses involved the enhanced senses association with AnPr, and is very less dependent on thinking for good. So, this is more like you are comparing the ability for your own argument than someone else doing it.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Breaking News: Super Celebrity, Ukiyo Ace, beats up local high schooler after “Yo Mama” jokes becomes to personal.

Kiyotaka is not the kind of person to insult someone's mom.

He is more like the guy who would steal Ace's girlfriend.

 

[Shadowslash125]

さすが英寿-さま!

And Grace has ended, folks. It's been a fun and wild match. But alas, Ace has to give Ayanokoji the L.

Seriously, I have nothing against you folks. It's honestly been mostly fun for my first major matchup hehe. This matchup will now be added to the respective profiles.

 

[Lonkitt]

Alright, Then how skilled is he in H2H? Because, Based on his profile, Koji outskills

Our Geats profile seriously needs to describe his fighting style better because I can’t think of a single scenario where Koji would outskill Ace

 

[RoggerReggor]

Skill is mainly knowledge. 2000 years of knowledge in combat and its application is actually pretty crazy. Kiyotaka is only like having a kind of knowledge which is beyond what a person can practice in their entire lives (so like 100 years at least, but again, nothing like you can highball it up to a 2000 years). So yes, Ace stomps Kiyotaka in skills, saying that as a Kiyotaka supporter, what Kiyotaka takes is battle IQ due to his battle intricacies and mind games which he can play within combat.

Secondly, this thread should be closed, I guess. ()

 

[Nicetoderp]

We're having precog fight and I missed it? Damn.

Also, surprise that no one else here mentioned Kurayami's infinite precog being trump by skill.

Edit: I heard that your precog is pretty strong. - Kamen Rider Zero-One.