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@Mr. Bambu @Armorchompy @DarkDragonMedeusLord of the Rings general revision thread: Return of the Thread
The magic thing is a bit weird, I can think of other verses where we've decidedly not done that, but it's a minor point so I'll cede since it's purely for indexing. I'll make a note in the justification that it's not "usable" magic and purely for indexing, although I'll add that Legolas...vsbattles.com
Lord of the Rings general revision thread: Return of the Thread
The magic thing is a bit weird, I can think of other verses where we've decidedly not done that, but it's a minor point so I'll cede since it's purely for indexing. I'll make a note in the justification that it's not "usable" magic and purely for indexing, although I'll add that Legolas...vsbattles.com
Hsharpe's proposed changes. I agreed with the intelligence changes mainly. Durability Neg as well for Ainur of Greater Maiar and above levels. Possession and Precog Neg I agree with but I'll give them a more detailed look over once I get to them in the individual ability revisions.
Bambu, Armor, and DDM have commented here several times and helped out.
Oh, I must have missed him. The page is currently locked so you'd have to request it to be unlocked to appropriate staff but sure.Tilion's page looks very outdated. Permission to update it with the new ability rosters for the Ainur and whatever scalings you may have for him?
IIRC, that was a movie exclusive statement. He says, "No man can kill him," which then Eowyn was able to finish him off due to being a woman. In the book, it was more so that Merry stabbed him with an enchanted Barrow Blade (Which Nazguls like Witch King are vulnerable to) to null his durability in which Eowyn took advantage of this and killed him off.It also says the Witch-king can't be hurt by conventional weapons and that any weapon that touches him will break and injure the attacker. Are there any quotes for this?
Yeah, any weapon that pierces him will break. However, that doesn't stop them from piercing him.IIRC, that was a movie exclusive statement. He says, "No man can kill him," which then Eowyn was able to finish him off due to being a woman. In the book, it was more so that Merry stabbed him with an enchanted Barrow Blade (Which Nazguls like Witch King are vulnerable to) to null his durability in which Eowyn took advantage of this and killed him off.
Edit: Although if what I am reading about is correct, there is the ability where every weapon used against him will break regardless of whether or not it wounds or kills him. And if it fails to kill him, it will also indirectly poison the wielder with a poison even more painful than his mace.
This is more of a description of how they wage war. In standard battles, we don't really have much to work with in their "Prior to entering Eä" key outside of them singing so that's the go-to. Later is bit more detailedI also propose standard tactics for Morgoth and Sauron.
Sauron:
Sauron was extremely cautious in his approach to warfare, and often took centuries to plan out his invasions, even if it meant giving his enemies time to prepare defenses. His strategies often involved wars on multiple fronts and he would exploit every advantage he had to make his foes weaker. This yielded mixed results; while Sauron would often win battles, he would rarely win the actual war itself. Unlike Morgoth, Sauron is not a coward, and sometimes personally led his armies and would fight if he needed to.
Morgoth:
Morgoth was very aggressive in his style of warfare, often preferring blitzkrieg-like assault on unsuspecting foes. This led to him suffering several catastrophic defeats before he actually started to properly plan things out. But even then, his armies mostly just relied on overwhelming force and destructive power. That isn't to say it wasn't effective, Morgoth was never defeated conventionally and his defeats came as a result of the direct intervention of the Valar. Except for his duel with Fingolfin, Morgoth was almost never physically present at the war, and conducted his wars from deep within Angband. For all his power, he was still a coward.
This is more of a discussion thread topic but no, there is not a universal resistance to magic I know of, although they do resist certain applications of magic (like illusions). Not sure about High Elves.Do Elves in LOTR by any chance have Resistance to Magic?
And also, could LOTR characters carry their Resistances over to other verses that they're not from?
Bumping this again.Lord of the Rings general revision thread: Return of the Thread
The magic thing is a bit weird, I can think of other verses where we've decidedly not done that, but it's a minor point so I'll cede since it's purely for indexing. I'll make a note in the justification that it's not "usable" magic and purely for indexing, although I'll add that Legolas...vsbattles.com
Lord of the Rings general revision thread: Return of the Thread
The magic thing is a bit weird, I can think of other verses where we've decidedly not done that, but it's a minor point so I'll cede since it's purely for indexing. I'll make a note in the justification that it's not "usable" magic and purely for indexing, although I'll add that Legolas...vsbattles.com
Hsharpe's proposed changes. I agreed with the intelligence changes mainly. Physical Durability Neg as well for Ainur of Greater Maiar and above levels (as they directly attack the soul). Possession and Precog Neg I agree with but I'll give them a more detailed look over once I get to them in the individual ability revisions.
Oh, I mentioned the tier 0 and 1 stuff kinda off-handedly, I'll remove that to avoid confusion, I'm still tackling that with Ultima in PMs.I am unsure, Tier 0 stuff are kind of known for a lot of other things. And I am unsure about Tier 1. Sounds like something Ultima would be better at evaluating, but I can try. Some of the other powers and ability additions look good though.
Failing some further context for what this would actually entail, I think this is pretty weak evidence for Supergenius.Valar to Supergenius for being able to comprehend on the scale of the infinite universe (Varda knows all the regions of Eä for instance, aka the universe).
This seems fine. We've given similar ratings for analytical prediction in the past.
- Extraordinary Intelligence for the "Wise" for being able to accurately know the future as "foresight" via sheer intelligence and experience too, but this isn't the focus. This came up more as a supporting feat as the "Wise" are less intelligent than the Valar or alternative rating.
- They also can perceive all the past, which is an additional bit of support.
I'd like a scan for this one, these sorts of statements can be a bit finnicky.Mandos to Nigh-Omniscient for knowing all things that shall be (minus stuff Eru withholds) and forgetting nothing.
Upscaling is fine, hinges on the last request for a scan. Obviously all of these require references and so on, these responses presume those will be given.Manwë to Nigh-Omniscient as well for being the most knowledgeable of all the Valar (including Mandos) and being able to directly commune with Eru for knowledge, wisdom, and advice.
No qualms, although I may suggest a "likely" given the "It is said" bit, which makes it sound more like rumor and hearsay rather than objectively known fact.Possession is from Sauron and those he taught being able to possess bodies by force. However, it needs to consensual enter the body first.
Eh. I don't know much about what Elrond has of Precog, but I do know that Ainur precog itself is fairly limiting, and it may be scuffed by that limitation rather than direct influence of Sauron (or verse mechanics moreso than an ability of Sauron himself). I think it's fine as a possibly.Precog-neg is from Sauron obscuring the foresight and far sight of characters with "darkness".
Failing some further context for what this would actually entail, I think this is pretty weak evidence for Supergenius.
I'd like a scan for this one, these sorts of statements can be a bit finnicky.
I will add that "it is said" is more Tolkien's way of adding the "mythological" flair to his writing. Though I'm fine with a likely rating.No qualms, although I may suggest a "likely" given the "It is said" bit, which makes it sound more like rumor and hearsay rather than objectively known fact.
Elrond is one of the "wise" who can foresee the future. Much of this is just deduction, although some of it is genuine future sight (albeit often from the Valar)Eh. I don't know much about what Elrond has of Precog, but I do know that Ainur precog itself is fairly limiting, and it may be scuffed by that limitation rather than direct influence of Sauron (or verse mechanics moreso than an ability of Sauron himself). I think it's fine as a possibly.
No problem!I'd meant to speak on this earlier, forgot.
Thanks. I'm still waiting for Ultima to get back to me on some points. It might be some time still before I add to that thread with my own.If you want to upgrade Eru Iluvatar to tier 0, you need to mention it in the thread linked below to receive help from Ultima.
1-A / High 1-A / Tier 0 Revisions Hub
Hi. Good to see you. So, it has finally happened. The new Tiering System is applied. Evil is defeated. We can all go home now. So, I'll be making this thread for a twofold purpose: 1. To keep track of the potential torrent of attempts at 1-A-through-0 upgrades resulting from the revisions...vsbattles.com
I'm not too against that.On the matter of Supergenius: I'm still on the fence, I'd agree with "At least Extraordinary Genius, possibly Supergenius".
I'm not too married to the idea, but it does sayI'd be against Precog-Neg for Sauron, from the quotes. They seem to more consistently suggest that this Precog is rather Analytical Prediction, and that can be confounded without a particular ability towards that end.
Dura Neg in that proposal suggests that they can use Fear Manipulation on one's spirit to reduce any given target to "impotence"- this is not really Durability Negation, but rather a bypassing of the need to interface with Durability at all. Do correct me if I'm missing something.
It does say that, but this is all poetic speech that requires interpretation, and their predictive abilities are already stated to be limited in of themselves. So, it may simply be nothing- it is not an ability of Sauron's but rather an instance of their limitations being apparent.I'm not too married to the idea, but it does say
“Then I cannot help you much, not even with counsel,' said Elrond. ‘I can foresee very little of your road; and how your task is to be achieved I do not know. The Shadow has crept now to the feet of the Mountains, and draws nigh even to the borders of Greyflood; and under the Shadow all is dark to me.”
Implying Sauron is doing something to confound their Analytical Prediction (which I assume you accept alongside the Intelligence upgrade). Not sure what this would be rated as... a bizzare addition to Darkness Manipulation?
Just affecting the soul isn't Dura Neg. You need to damage it, or at least kill the body by interfacing with it somehow. Dura Neg relates strictly to damaging someone and bypassing their traditional durability in doing so.This one is more so just the application of the existing Soul Manipulation of the Greater Maiar and Valar. They can directly impact souls, even incarnate ones (the fëar being the soul) while ignoring the body.
The Fear Manip stuff is something I plan to tackle seperately. I forgot that was on here. I assume that's under Hsharpe's original proposal.
It is poetic speech, but it is quite literal. Elrond cannot see the future as Sauron is doing something to obscure it. Gandalf and other make repeated comment of "the Shadow" veiling things. The third quote above has Gandalf explicitly say he cannot see Frodo and Sam once they enter Mordor for instance.It does say that, but this is all poetic speech that requires interpretation, and their predictive abilities are already stated to be limited in of themselves. So, it may simply be nothing- it is not an ability of Sauron's but rather an instance of their limitations being apparent.
Just affecting the soul isn't Dura Neg. You need to damage it, or at least kill the body by interfacing with it somehow. Dura Neg relates strictly to damaging someone and bypassing their traditional durability in doing so.
I'm not too married to Precog Neg so I'm fine with that being disputed.See, all of that is probably fine for Dura Neg, but the original stuff didn't really offer anything to suggest it. Dura Neg is fine.
Still not convinced of Precog Neg, so I'm voting no on that.
They are analysing to predict the future, it should fall under there.I’d say the analytical prediction thing should be perception manipulation
Yes, if that's possible, thanks!Thank you for helping out.
Do you need help with temporarily unlocking those pages?