Lord of the Rings Discussion Thread

[Gasper]

"[T]he simultaneity of different planes of reality touching one another... [is] part of the deeply felt idea that I had... Beyond that too I feel that no construction of the human mind, whether in imagination or the highest philosophy, can contain within its own ‘englobement’ all that there is... There is always something left over that demands a different or longer construction to ‘explain’ it... This is like a ‘play’, in which... there are noises that do not belong, chinks in the scenery... [Tolkien notes in particular the status of Tom Bombadil]"

Interestingly Tolkien mentioned different planes of reality too.

 

[Tyranno223]

I know, but does "formless chaos" refer only to "the outer space" or..?

Likely so. Although I need more context than just the quote. Do you know where it is from?

I thought they didn't exist yet at that time?

Again, I need context, but Ainur are never referred to as the "children". It is an exclusive term.

"[T]he simultaneity of different planes of reality touching one another... [is] part of the deeply felt idea that I had... Beyond that too I feel that no construction of the human mind, whether in imagination or the highest philosophy, can contain within its own ‘englobement’ all that there is... There is always something left over that demands a different or longer construction to ‘explain’ it... This is like a ‘play’, in which... there are noises that do not belong, chinks in the scenery... [Tolkien notes in particular the status of Tom Bombadil]"

Interestingly Tolkien mentioned different planes of reality too.

I need context, but it looks unquantifiable regardless.

 

[Gasper]

Likely so. Although I need more context than just the quote. Do you know where it is from?

It's from Morgoth's ring, so more additional stuff:

"even left alone he [Morgoth] could only have gone raging on till all was levelled again into a formless chaos. And yet even so he would have been defeated, because it would still have 'existed', independent of his own mind, and a world in potential."

So, yeah, it's pretty vague. It's probably referring to space around arda.

Again, I need context, but Ainur are never referred to as the "children". It is an exclusive term.

Well, that was at the time of Ainulindalë.
So it was way before Eä was even made.

I need context, but it looks unquantifiable regardless.

Honestly, have no idea from where this is.
Though, it dosen't really matter anyway.

 

[Tyranno223]

It's from Morgoth's ring, so more additional stuff:

"even left alone he [Morgoth] could only have gone raging on till all was levelled again into a formless chaos. And yet even so he would have been defeated, because it would still have 'existed', independent of his own mind, and a world in potential."

So, yeah, it's pretty vague. It's probably referring to space around arda.

I assume it's space. The Ainur did build the material universe afterall. Originally it was either mostly void, or just space with some ancient stars.

Well, that was at the time of Ainulindalë.
So it was way before Eä was even made.

It refers to the marring of Arda. it cannot have been during the Ainulindalë.

 

[TheMerchant66]

I suppose that's a fair point. I'll need to look into it more before I give my final opinion, but that does mean we can have then scale to 7-A (be it possibly or solidly) without the Balrogs or Gandalf the Grey.

They would still be below Gandalf the White overall however, given statements of him being only below Sauron.

That being said, where would you put Saruman the White? He was likely the strongest on the White Council.

Edit: I'll have to maintain my current stance for now due to the Nazgul.

Gandalf is able to fight off all 9 at night, while not even the combined might of Aragorn and Glorfindel can match the Nazgul at day.

It is also suggestible that Durin's Bane might have been a stronger Balrog than the one Glorfindel fought, as the tier we have is really just the baseline for what they achieved. Individual Balrogs may or may not be stronger, we just don't have the info.

There's actually a quote in Unfinished Tales that says Gandalf the Grey is actually the Mightiest of the Istari and Galadriel wanted him to be the leader of the White Council but Gandalf sensed Sarumans jealousy and made him the Head of the council instead. But, there are quotes that contradict that, so take that as you will.

Gandalf only fought 6 accoeding to Tolkien, I think it was in one of his letters that is for whatever reason not in "Letters" but the LOTR readers companion. The Nazgûl in thr Hunt for the ring story have a statement that all 9 together are unbeatable according to Sauron.

That's possible, old Balrogs were written to be weaker. But, we will never truly know. We do know Glorfindel did still fight a Balrog since Topkien references it during his talk avout Glorfindels ressurection, and that was after Tolkien came to the conclusion Balrogs were Maia.

The 3 Elven Rings are given to the strongest Elves in Middle-Earth and Glorfindel wasn't chosen, but I will say that isn't entirely concrete since Círdan did give Gandalf his Ring after all, but that could simply mean Gandalf>Círdan but below Galadriel, Elrond, and Glorfindel. It also can mean because Gandalf will be more active on the battlefield instead of Círdan who is ferrying boats so too busy 2 fight.

It's also possible post ressurection Glorfindel is only nigh equal to the Istari but nothing to really support that.

 

[Gasper]

Here are some abilities that Melkor/Morgoth should have on his profiles:

Fire manipulation, heat manipulation, ice manipulation and smoke manipulation (when he came to arda his crown was made from smoke and fire, and he's body was made from ice), absorption (with his spear drained the light of the two trees), darkness manipulation (created a huge shadow over a continent), shape-shifting, corruption, large size type 2 normaly, type 4 when he came to arda, size manipulation, sound manipulation, probably vibration manipulation, magma manipulation (created a huge lava storm), Low Godly regeneration, intangibility, Incorporeality, lighting manipulation, master manipulator, master hand to hand combatant, curse manipulation, immortality types 1, 2, 3, 4, probably 5 and 9, water manipulation, magic and concept manipulation (created the concept of dark magic), telepathy, non physical interaction, flight, precognition, energy manipulation, Air Manipulation, forcefield manipulation, fear manipulation, soul manipulation, empathic manipulation, invulnerability, poison manipulation, illusion creation, transmutation, astral protection, self sustenance type 1, 2 and 3

True Form/Before he came to Eä: all previous abilities plus avatar Creation, matter manipulation, Acausality Type 4, creation, nonexistence physiology, Higher Dimensional existence, Aura, Large size type 8 possibly 10, Chaos manipulation (created the concept of discord), light manipulation (appeared as light)

Resistances: heat manipulation, magma manipulation and fire manipulation (endured three silmarils on his forehead), void manipulation (existed in the void of non being), concept manipulation (Ainur couldn't do anything to each other with conceptual battle), time manipulation (exists before time was created and completely transends it), cosmic radiation (can live Arda and enter outer space), soul manipulation,

 

[Tyranno223]

There's actually a quote in Unfinished Tales that says Gandalf the Grey is actually the Mightiest of the Istari and Galadriel wanted him to be the leader of the White Council but Gandalf sensed Sarumans jealousy and made him the Head of the council instead. But, there are quotes that contradict that, so take that as you will.

Gandalf only fought 6 accoeding to Tolkien, I think it was in one of his letters that is for whatever reason not in "Letters" but the LOTR readers companion. The Nazgûl in thr Hunt for the ring story have a statement that all 9 together are unbeatable according to Sauron.

Ah, that's one of the few things I lack access to. I only have the Aragorn, Witch-King statement. But yeah, in the current proposal we put forth in the revision thread, I wrote that Gandalf the Grey could be anywhere from above Galadriel to below Glorfindel. But they're all comparable.

That's possible, old Balrogs were written to be weaker. But, we will never truly know. We do know Glorfindel did still fight a Balrog since Topkien references it during his talk avout Glorfindels ressurection, and that was after Tolkien came to the conclusion Balrogs were Maia.

Yeah, it's still in the Published Silmarillion and Fall of Gondolin.

The 3 Elven Rings are given to the strongest Elves in Middle-Earth and Glorfindel wasn't chosen, but I will say that isn't entirely concrete since Círdan did give Gandalf his Ring after all, but that could simply mean Gandalf>Círdan but below Galadriel, Elrond, and Glorfindel. It also can mean because Gandalf will be more active on the battlefield instead of Círdan who is ferrying boats so too busy 2 fight.

Cirdan gave it to him as he foresaw Gandalf's need of it and due to his inner strength, so at minimum it makes sense. I don't recall what statements Elrond has for his scaling. I forgot to even overview him somehow. Wow, that was bad of me.

It's also possible post ressurection Glorfindel is only nigh equal to the Istari but nothing to really support that.

Yeah, it's rather generic, but it does say he's around the level of the Maiar he was friends with in Valinor. Olorin is mentioned as one of the ones who were his friends, but it says that statement after the former one, so it's likely chronologically after (at least the way it is written) but not guarantees, thus the possibly scaling.

Is everything else mostly good? The Aragorn revision might be controversial.

 

[Tyranno223]

Here are some abilities that Melkor/Morgoth should have on his profiles:

I agree with most of them, but I'm still compiling abilities, and that's a secondary pursuit for me.

Matter Manipulation is one of their most potent abilities. It affects all of creation to a nigh complete degree, with them being able to mold and shape creation as they wish, while also being able to undo it.

Fear manipulation is quite potent. They can chase souls out of bodies or trap them in bodies in a powerless state. Anyone not instantly reduced to that state by Sauron or the like gets resistances.

Mind manipulation, soul manipulation, and a bunch of others get resistances from Eru's Law Manipulation (in verse). But it's there's a fair bit to get through.

 

[Gasper]

I agree with most of them, but I'm still compiling abilities, and that's a secondary pursuit for me.

Matter Manipulation is one of their most potent abilities. It affects all of creation to a nigh complete degree, with them being able to mold and shape creation as they wish, while also being able to undo it.

Fear manipulation is quite potent. They can chase souls out of bodies or trap them in bodies in a powerless state.

Mind manipulation, soul manipulation, and a bunch of others get resistances from Eru's Law Manipulation (in verse). But it's there's a fair bit to get through.

What abilities are you not so sure about?
I 100% admit i could've missed alot of abilities.

A few questions though: is there any BFR feats in Legendarium?

Should Maiar get any regeneration negation stuff?

And is soul manipulation 5-D?
Can Valar on Arda be smurfs?

 

[Tyranno223]

What abilities are you not so sure about?
I 100% admit i could've missed alot of abilities.

Immortality types for one. They have no reliant immortality. But I can't give more than a cursory look right now.

A few questions though: is there any BFR feats in Legendarium?

The Valar have repeatedly banished individuals out of space and time into the Void, but that was them physically kicking a body through the Gates of Night.

Eru sent all of Numenor deep into the Ocean/underground, but that matters little at that level.

Should Maiar get any regeneration negation stuff?

I believe there may be some weapons that do that, but I might be conflating another thing with LOTR. Morgul Blades attack the Soul for instance (although that's less negation, more bypassing all regen up to Mid-Godly... unless you got resistances of course).

And is soul manipulation 5-D?
Can Valar on Arda be smurfs?

Don't think so. The Valar manipulate the souls of the Incarnates, and Eru made them to be unable to be destroyed by any means (harmed is another) but the Ainur only move them around. Taking them into a new body or potentially out of an old one.

Their Concept Manipulation might be mildly smurfy, as their inception shook the Timeless Halls, but it's unknown.

Their only really smurfy thing are some of their resistances. Their souls, minds, etc are guaranteed by Eru's Law Manipulation, aka his decree of what is and is not impossible.

 

[Tyranno223]

Ah, I suppose Manwë does blow the soul of Sauron and potentially Saruman into the Timeless Void. So that's BFR.

 

[Gasper]

Immortality types for one. They have no reliant immortality. But I can't give more than a cursory look right now.

i think only immortality type 8 is relient.

The Valar have repeatedly banished individuals out of space and time into the Void, but that was them physically kicking a body through the Gates of Night.

Well, i do believe physical banishing does quality but not sure.

 

[Tyranno223]

On a sidenote to the LOTR scaling thing (since we're just waiting on Staff and Merchant's thoughts on the overall thing), I believe we can argue for "possibly Immeasurable" Bodiless Ainur in Eä. The example I gave for infinite speed says they can go in the past physically, but they obviously have no example of it.

The issue is resolved by the past becoming more concrete and immutable. Thus we can give possibly Immeasurable to the Ainur (in spirit form) and give possibly Acausality (not sure which one yet) to all LOTR characters.

 

[Gasper]

On a sidenote to the LOTR scaling thing (since we're just waiting on Staff and Merchant's thoughts on the overall thing), I believe we can argue for "possibly Immeasurable" Bodiless Ainur in Eä. The example I gave for infinite speed says they can go in the past physically, but they obviously have no example of it.

The issue is resolved by the past becoming more concrete and immutable. Thus we can give possibly Immeasurable to the Ainur (in spirit form) and give possibly Acausality (not sure which one yet) to all LOTR characters.

How exactly does spirit forms of Ainur work? Can they do it whenever they want to? And can they physically interact with physical world?

 

[Tyranno223]

How exactly does spirit forms of Ainur work? Can they do it whenever they want to? And can they physically interact with physical world?

Most Ainur are able to just discard their bodies like clothing. Only cases like Morgoth or the Istari arw unable to do that.

They built the material universe before making bodies, so yes.

 

[Gasper]

Most Ainur are able to just discard their bodies like clothing. Only cases like Morgoth or the Istari arw unable to do that.

They built the material universe before making bodies, so yes.

I see. So they can just do that in mid combat and speed blitz opponent?

 

[Tyranno223]

I see. So they can just do that in mid combat and speed blitz opponent?

Yeah, but it's not too in character for most. Bloodlusted though, absolutely.

 

[Gasper]

Is it only me or is this quote an absolute dogshit on the verse's profile?

"The verse's hax is unimpressive for the most part, though it does have transmutation. The Ainur are also intangible and non-corporeal in their spirit forms. The majority of the verse's hax comes from the Ainur's true forms, which are intangible and non-corporeal, and have some decent reality warping/conceptual manipulation in that they created the physical laws of the universe and transcend it."

 

[Tyranno223]

Is it only me or is this quote an absolute dogshit on the verse's profile?

"The verse's hax is unimpressive for the most part, though it does have transmutation. The Ainur are also intangible and non-corporeal in their spirit forms. The majority of the verse's hax comes from the Ainur's true forms, which are intangible and non-corporeal, and have some decent reality warping/conceptual manipulation in that they created the physical laws of the universe and transcend it."

It's an old quote. Definitely should be changed.

 

[Dinamic8000]

Since we are already deciding about abilities changes, one possibility would be to create an physiology page to summarize all common powers of a specific group like our friends from ASOIAF verse did with the dragons

Personally, i think an Ainur physiology page would make the profiles much more clean, i may start an draft soon

 

[Tyranno223]

Since we are already deciding about abilities changes, one possibility would be to create an physiology page to summarize all common powers of a specific group like our friends from ASOIAF verse did with the dragons

Personally, i think an Ainur physiology page would make the profiles much more clean, i may start an draft soon

That is the current plan. Let me know how that goes along, I'm still currently focusing on statistics, but I've looked into abilitiesa bit..

 

[Dinamic8000]

That is the current plan. Let me know how that goes along, I'm still currently focusing on statistics, but I've looked into abilitiesa bit..

Okay, i had some free time today and made this using what is written in the profiles

Tell me later if i missed anything or got something wrong

 

[Tyranno223]

Okay, i had some free time today and made this using what is written in the profiles

Tell me later if i missed anything or got something wrong

It's a good start, but stuff needs to be removed or adjusted in the future. We'll need to get scans as well.

Precognition is iffy, as the Ainur only witnessed the events thanks to Eru, and only a limited version of the future (only Manwë can ask Wru for fuether insight in a directish way). Death Manipulation resistance is also off, as the Ainur don't even go to the Halls of Mandos if they physically die. Reality Warping is also to be removed.

Conceptual Manipulation seems to be retained for both keys, as the Ainur still had control over their domains following their descent.

Matter Manipulation is present in both keys, as the Valar had almost complete control over the matter of the universe, with all Ainur participating on building the physical universe. Soul Manipulation and Mind Manipulation are also there. The Valar move Elven souls into bodies for the resurrection/reincarnation, while the Ainur can comminicate mentally and battle on a mental plane as well. Holy Manipulation seems likely, as Glorfindel is said to become "sanctified" and holy as became more akin to a Maia. Plus there's all the descriptions about their role as angelic servants.

Fallen Ainur get Fear Manipulation, with Morgoth and Sauron having such potent versions, that they could chase souls out of bodies with terror, or leave them trapped within their bodies but unable to control them.

The Ainur get resistances to Concept Manipulation due to the events of the Ainulindalë, and likely Matter Manipulation to some degree, as they both have the ability to fashion their physical bodies like raiments, and as they are described as controlling the matter of Arda in their conflicts with one another (raising mountains, then undoing them, stuff like that).

Fear Manipulation resistance is also present for the Ainur, as they warred with the Fallen Ainur.

There's probably more, but that's the stuff I can recall off the top of my head.

 

[Tyranno223]

Been checking out the notes around Ainulindalë a bit. From the looks of it, it's definitely an example of Fate Manipulation to some degree, as the events of the Music will happen (with the music being noted in the Nature of Middle-Earth as having genuine power over those within the universe).

It's also likely a case of Concept Manipulation, as there are quite literally no such things prior to the music. We even have the concepts of "discord" and "evil" as an example from Melkor's rebellion, while Manwë's control over winds and air is a far tamer one.

Edit:
An omitted draft in Morgoth's Ring even has this outright line. Not usable by itself of course, but a good bit of support for what the Music conceptually is.

"Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest." - Text D: Ainulindalë

 

[Tyranno223]

Bit of an update on the moon and sun stuff, but I believe the former may be legitimate, while the latter is a but too iffy for me.

It's reflective.
Craters are legitimate.
It's an "island" of stone and not a ship
It's meant to be the same moon as ours.
Etc

 

[Tyranno223]

Okay, i had some free time today and made this using what is written in the profiles

Tell me later if i missed anything or got something wrong

By the way, is it okay if I edit the page in the future?

 

[Dinamic8000]

By the way, is it okay if I edit the page in the future?

Sure, no problemo

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Hello.
Aside from the obvious case of LOTR, what is canon in Tolkien's verse? What books?

 

[Tyranno223]

Hello.
Aside from the obvious case of LOTR, what is canon in Tolkien's verse? What books?

LOTR and the Hobbit were published as complete(ish) things. They're the most canon.

Letters of Tolkien are his direct thoughts and explanation of his Legendarium.

The Silmarillion, Lay of Luthien, Fall of Gondolin, etc, are all compiled drafts into "finished" products by his son. Christopher was his appointed custodian and "successor", so this site accepts these as canon too, although editorial changes can be contested.

The compiled notes of Tolkien held in books like the Unfinished Tales, Nature of Middle-Earth, etc, are considered sources for canon here. Obviously you cannot use all theie notes, as many are from outdated drafts or utterly unfinished ideas. However, if the notes are the latest edition of his thought, consistent with the wider world (or at least not contradictory), etc, they are acceptable.

The Atlas of Middle-Earth seems to also be accepted. I believe Tolkien personally approved of it, but I don't deal with that book myself.

 

[Tyranno223]

Working on the Imgur links. Hopefully this is enough to counteract arguments against High 3-A for now. Unless they're completely correct of course.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

Looking forward to seeing the changes!

 

[Tyranno223]

Looking forward to seeing the changes!

Already started! Manwe and Morgoth were changed, as was Eonwe. Will work on them over time.

 

[Dinamic8000]

LOTR and the Hobbit were published as complete(ish) things. They're the most canon.

Letters of Tolkien are his direct thoughts and explanation of his Legendarium.

The Silmarillion, Lay of Luthien, Fall of Gondolin, etc, are all compiled drafts into "finished" products by his son. Christopher was his appointed custodian and "successor", so this site accepts these as canon too, although editorial changes can be contested.

The compiled notes of Tolkien held in books like the Unfinished Tales, Nature of Middle-Earth, etc, are considered sources for canon here. Obviously you cannot use all theie notes, as many are from outdated drafts or utterly unfinished ideas. However, if the notes are the latest edition of his thought, consistent with the wider world (or at least not contradictory), etc, they are acceptable.

The Atlas of Middle-Earth seems to also be accepted. I believe Tolkien personally approved of it, but I don't deal with that book myself.

I would put The Silmarillion one step above the others, considering the book is the closest compilation of the first age legends that J.R.R Tolkien was planing to publish in life

Besides that, this is a great summary of the lore

 

[Tyranno223]

I would note that the Silmarillion is not perfect. Christopher made changes and assertions that were not in the original drafts. One notable change is the utter removal of any mention of a "Final Battle", despite it remaining in Tolkien's notes till his late days. Another would be removing the outright mention of Eonwe overthrowing the weakened Morgoth in direct confrontation.

 

[Tyranno223]

Btw, possibly Moon level Aragorn is trippy to read.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

How hot are the fire of Tolkien's dragons ?

 

[Tyranno223]

How hot are the fire of Tolkien's dragons ?

Unknown, but hot enough to melt "magic metal rings". I haven't had a good look into it.

You'll be happy to know Aragorn is being downgraded (for now). Probably scaling to some stone breaking feats. Anduril is still OP as hfil.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

You'll be happy to know Aragorn is being downgraded (for now). Probably scaling to some stone breaking feats. Anduril is still OP as hfil.

It's 9-B right? Sadly, ASOIAF characters are only 9-C

 

[Tyranno223]

It's 9-B right? Sadly, ASOIAF characters are only 9-C

Bugger. Still good for the tv series I suppose.

Still, calcs aren't finished so you never know.

 

[Hellbeast]

Dumb Question, would profiles for games like War In the North or the tie ins for the LOTR films be a viable effort?