• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Lord of the Rings Discussion Thread

Tyranno223 said:
Yeah, the Ainur are stuck so long as Eä exists. They are bound to its life. Once it's ended, they can begin the Second Music. However, exceptions do exist, with Gandalf managing to get out after incarnate death. Though this is 99.99% due to Eru's intervention.
Click to expand...
It does make me wonder: if the Ainur are generally unable to leave Eä, how was Morgoth able to be put outside of it in the Timeless Void in that case? Was there a sort of mechanic that made Morgoth an exception, or something else entirely?

Another question: Regarding the Sons of Fëanor (i.e Maedhros, Maglor, etc.) and Children of Fingolfin (i.e Fingon, Turgon, Aredhel, etc.), would they theoretically be around the adolescent/teenager range of age despite being, y'know thousands of years old?
 
Hsharpe said:
It does make me wonder: if the Ainur are generally unable to leave Eä, how was Morgoth able to be put outside of it in the Timeless Void in that case? Was there a sort of mechanic that made Morgoth an exception, or something else entirely?
Click to expand...
Tbf, it's weird imo as well. Still, he doesn't have any agency in the Void and it's not like he was shoved "far" given he will return one day. The Void is genuinely just a weird concept in Tolkien as it's very much referring to just pure nothingness with not much else to it. It's bizarre.
 
Could the Nazgûl and the Witch-king use Soul Manipulation and Possession in the same manner as Sauron can?
 
Hsharpe said:
Another question: Regarding the Sons of Fëanor (i.e Maedhros, Maglor, etc.) and Children of Fingolfin (i.e Fingon, Turgon, Aredhel, etc.), would they theoretically be around the adolescent/teenager range of age despite being, y'know thousands of years old?
Click to expand...
Also bumping this too.
 
Question: in LOTR, if a soul is controlled, does it lose the free-will that Eru is sustaining?
 
Tyranno223 said:
The only person to outright use the Silmarils to enhance themself was Carcharoth who ate one and was constantly being burned from the inside by it. The jewels themselves are solidly High 3-A regardless for burning Morgoth with permanent scars, being capable of reviving the Two Trees when used together, and being the greatest creation of the Valar (including the material universe).
Click to expand...
Curious, are there quotes out there stating that the Two Trees were the greatest creation of the Valar? And also a quote of them creating the material universe? That would certainly help.
 
ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn said:
They create it when they descend to Arda.
Click to expand...
“But when the Valar entered into Eä they were at first astounded and at a loss, for it was as if naught was yet made which they had seen in vision, and all was but on point to begin and yet unshaped, and it was dark. For the Great Music had been but the growth and flowering of thought in the Timeless Halls, and the Vision only a foreshowing; but now they had entered in at the beginning of Time, and the Valar perceived that the World had been but foreshadowed and foresung, and they must achieve it. So began their great labours in wastes unmeasured and unexplored, and in ages uncounted and forgotten, until in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the vast halls of Eä there came to be that hour and that place where was made the habitation of the Children of Ilúvatar.” - Silmarillion: AINULINDALË

This one, yes?
 
Hsharpe said:
“But when the Valar entered into Eä they were at first astounded and at a loss, for it was as if naught was yet made which they had seen in vision, and all was but on point to begin and yet unshaped, and it was dark. For the Great Music had been but the growth and flowering of thought in the Timeless Halls, and the Vision only a foreshowing; but now they had entered in at the beginning of Time, and the Valar perceived that the World had been but foreshadowed and foresung, and they must achieve it. So began their great labours in wastes unmeasured and unexplored, and in ages uncounted and forgotten, until in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the vast halls of Eä there came to be that hour and that place where was made the habitation of the Children of Ilúvatar.” - Silmarillion: AINULINDALË

This one, yes?
Click to expand...
That's it!
 
Question mainly to Tyranno? Do you have Discord? Because I’m mainly asking because there’s a certain server that disagrees with 1-A LOTR for very invalid reasons. But if not, I’ll just sent what one of them said trying to disprove it.

As we have told you, you cannot use Eru in a debate. It's basically the equivalent of saying "Erm, acktually, my character is god" it's stupid. And, if you want to play that card, The Player is a god as they can edit and mod the game to their will, to which Chara upscales as they can undo changes to the files. Therefore, your point of souls not being able to be taken in a multiverse does not apply, especially in the context of other omnipotent god allowing souls to be taken. If my omnipotent god allows souls to be taken and yours doesn't, then what do you do? It's null and void. And Eru is only a authority over HIS narrative. Simply put: Tolkien was writing at a time where the idea of a multiverse didn't exist, therefore you can't claim Eru rules it all, as his creator had no idea of the concept, and it's just extremely egotistical to claim that.
Click to expand...


Most of Tolkien's statements don't apply because he's been dead for like 100 years and didn't know what a multiverse was
Click to expand...
Note that these were from a Melkor VS Chara debate I was having in that server.
 
Nah, I keep my discord separate from this wiki, and I would rather not add stress and wasted time debating people who can't be convinced on discord or anywhere really.
 
Hsharpe said:
Curious, are there quotes out there stating that the Two Trees were the greatest creation of the Valar? And also a quote of them creating the material universe? That would certainly help.
Click to expand...
That aside, I wanted to ask you this.
 
Hsharpe said:
That aside, I wanted to ask you this.
Click to expand...
Latter's already got a response but for the former, it was perhaps an exaggeration (even if I think it true).

But at the very least, they are Yavanna's greatest creation.

"Even for those who are mightiest under Ilúvatar there is some work that they may accomplish once, and once only. The Light of the Trees I brought into being, and within Eä I can do so never again."
 
Hsharpe said:
As we have told you, you cannot use Eru in a debate. It's basically the equivalent of saying "Erm, acktually, my character is god" it's stupid. And, if you want to play that card, The Player is a god as they can edit and mod the game to their will, to which Chara upscales as they can undo changes to the files. Therefore, your point of souls not being able to be taken in a multiverse does not apply, especially in the context of other omnipotent god allowing souls to be taken. If my omnipotent god allows souls to be taken and yours doesn't, then what do you do? It's null and void. And Eru is only a authority over HIS narrative. Simply put: Tolkien was writing at a time where the idea of a multiverse didn't exist, therefore you can't claim Eru rules it all, as his creator had no idea of the concept, and it's just extremely egotistical to claim that.
Click to expand...
The big problem with this is that the player isn't portrayed as omnipotent in any way. Sure, they play the game, but the very fact that Chara can interact with and affect them in any meaningful shows that they cannot omnipotent in the same way Eru is.
Hsharpe said:
Most of Tolkien's statements don't apply because he's been dead for like 100 years and didn't know what a multiverse was
Click to expand...
This is complete and utter bullsh*t, and they should know better. I guess author statements before thhe 1960's in general can't be used now.
 
Tyranno223 said:


Pretty sure this isn't all of them available despite what the title says, but here's almost 27 minutes of Tolkien talking.
Click to expand...

In 11:04 minute.

Tolkien: Everybody including divine spirits under God makes a mistakes in this mythology and because the Gods made a primary error: instead of leaving The elves and Men to find out their way under the guidance of God, they invited the elves - because the rebel amongst, The wicked god Melkor...
 
Hsharpe said:
Could Avada Kedavra work on anyone in LOTR?
Click to expand...
On the Ainur? Nah, they're true immortals and incapable of dying due to Eru's mandate on souls. For everyone else?

Well it depends on how it works. For one, Avada Kedavra seems to work by ripping the soul out of the body. This is largely an instant kill for most characters at first glance, including Incarnate Ainur like the Istari (well, they're not dead but they'd be just largely powerless spirits).

However, souls in LotR can resist being torn out of their body by other spirits trying to possess them, and those who can survive Morgoth and Sauron's Fear Manip would also be resisting fear that is capable of chasing a soul to impotence or flight from the body. So with that considered, all characters might be able to resist it to varying extents, stronger souls having stronger resistance.

Btw, to all, I am kinda taking a semi-break from the wiki right now, hence why I ain't applying the newly passed Elven Physiology draft or posting the Eru Tier 0 draft despite that being more or less done. I'm just pretty exhausted with the wiki right now. Nothing particular, just participating in debates while being busy irl is tiring.
 
There's also the fact that magic resistance in Harry Potter seems to be directly related to both physical durability and inherent magic. In Fantastic Beasts, Avada Kedavra was shown not to be an instant kill on a powerful magical creature, and dragons and giants resist magic because of their thick skin. I doubt any of the Istari would be genuinely threatened
 
It says on Sauron's page that he's described as a greater spirit across notes. Are there at least a few quotes showing this?
 
Hsharpe said:
It says on Sauron's page that he's described as a greater spirit across notes. Are there at least a few quotes showing this?
Click to expand...
There are, Morgoth's Ring calls him one for instance. That aside, the Silmarillion and such calls him chief among the Fallen Maiar.

Honestly, you could make a case for him being a possibly rather than a solid rating, but I think Natural outargued me there in the scaling discussion.
 
So… it’s stated that Ainur were created before anything else, even the Void apparently. If this is the case, are they beyond Existence and Non Existence? Would NEP or Non Duality/Transduality be possible for them?
 
How do we treat the newer Lord of the Rings stuff like the video games, animated movie, the Peter Jackson films (including the Hobit Trilogy), the Rings of Power, the upcoming War of the Rohirrim movie, etcetera?
 
ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn said:
How do we treat the newer Lord of the Rings stuff like the video games, animated movie, the Peter Jackson films (including the Hobit Trilogy), the Rings of Power, the upcoming War of the Rohirrim movie, etcetera?
Click to expand...
Probably as their own separate canon. Though we will NOT speak of Rings of Power, for it is a true bastardization of the Legendarium.
 
As far from canon as the Shadow games were, I genuinely enjoyed the story. It wasn't accurate by any means, but darn if they weren't fun and interesting. That's how you write fan fiction.
 
NaturalDestroyer said:
As a generic fantasy show, I'd give it a C. As a faithful Tolkien adaptation, D-.
Click to expand...
I only watched Season 1 to avoid extra stress and my rating was

C- as a fantasy show.
D- as a Tolkien adaption.

Honestly, the Dwarven segments were the only saving grace back then, and even they weren't that fun for me. Númenor especially had me frothing with rage.
 
NaturalDestroyer said:
As far from canon as the Shadow games were, I genuinely enjoyed the story. It wasn't accurate by any means, but darn if they weren't fun and interesting. That's how you write fan fiction.
Click to expand...
Yeah, fun stuff honestly. BFME series was also top stuff despite being lore breaking (Boromir can survive for example).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Tyranno223
Lord of the Rings general revision thread: Return of the Thread
5 6 7
Replies
266
Views
22K
Antvasima
Antvasima
Artorimachi_Meteoraft
The hunter vs legolas (grace)
Replies
15
Views
945
Artorimachi_Meteoraft
Artorimachi_Meteoraft
Sergeant_Hypocrite
Darkseid VS Sauron
Replies
8
Views
2K
Tyranno223
Tyranno223
ThanatosX
Fullmetal Alchemist General Discussion Thread
Replies
12
Views
1K
Mikazzzuchi
Mikazzzuchi
Psychomaster35
Total Drama General Discussion Thread: Dear Mom & Dad, I'm Doing Fine...
Replies
0
Views
758
Psychomaster35
Psychomaster35
Back
Top