Hsharpe
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Bumping this.
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Lord of the Rings Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Tyranno223
- Start date
- 3,552
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- #722
Idk really, but they are "extant" beings. They do exist and there is no presence of "non-existence" in any description that I am aware of. If anything, they cannot be anything but extant as they are "True Immortals" (minus abandoned stuff like Dagor Dagorath which only exists as an event that will happen, none of the actual content was kept since Tolkien hadn't finished a version he liked).
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- #724
High Elves like Finrod have used Songs of Power, so yes. Though I don't think either have done so in any account so they won't get it.
Hsharpe
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So a while back, I was looking through a power-scaling wiki called VsDebating Wiki, and found this:
vsdebating.fandom.com
Good lord is it outdated. And the fact they have him lose against the Lich King is just... no.
So I made a CRT to upgrade Sauron and give him more abilities, which I have here:
Feel free to make your own justifications or comments.
Sauron
Sauron, the eponymous Lord of the Rings, was a fallen Maia, the creator of the One Ring, and the most trusted lieutenant of his master Melkor (Morgoth, the first Dark Lord). After Melkor's defeat in the First Age, Sauron became the second Dark Lord and strove to conquer Arda by creating the...
vsdebating.fandom.com
Good lord is it outdated. And the fact they have him lose against the Lich King is just... no.
So I made a CRT to upgrade Sauron and give him more abilities, which I have here:
Feel free to make your own justifications or comments.
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That's pretty silly reasoning to be honest, considering that the only difference between a universe and multiverse is range. I'd say that being compared to the equivalent of author avatars is better scaling than affecting X amount of spacetimes anyways
Hsharpe
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Exactly.
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Is there a Movie Aragorn profile planned?
I'm planning on doing a profile for Movie Conan (the one played by Arnold Schwarzenegger), that would be a good match up.
I'm planning on doing a profile for Movie Conan (the one played by Arnold Schwarzenegger), that would be a good match up.
Hsharpe
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Also take a look at all the downplay in this Reddit post
Hsharpe
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@Tyranno223 I don’t mean to ping you if you’re busy, but is it alright if you could answer this? In a Reddit debate that asked this question, so I’m gonna need your input.
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I'll take a quick shot at this as well. My understanding is that Sauron a) doesn't have nearly as much access to those specific powers in Arda as he did in the Timeless Halls; b) prefers to lay low and avoid combat whenever possible because he lives in a world where there are plenty of other beings on his level and he's lost before. There's no reason in him using his powers and drawing attention when he likes being safe and scheming. He's a big fish, sure, but it's an enormous pond. The last time the Valar were provoked to action, for example, Sauron watched his master get absolutely demolished. He doesn't want that to happen to him.
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- #733
Yeah, what Natural said + some other stuff.
WotR Sauron is basically a cripple compared to his usual state. He's still potent and capable of physically interacting and stuff (unlike the Movie, depending on if the Hobbit or Extended Edition retcons the who no physical form thing) but he has lost most of his power.
Like Denethor says, Sauron isn't a frontline leader, especially by the WotR (less so in the FA or SA). He leaves combat to his subordinates till the last, and contente himself with management and delegation (and support from afar).
A lot of the higher end powers aren't simple + aren't that useful in the Legendarium. Time travel? Doesn't affect the present. Soul Manip? Every soul can fight back (to varying extents) + are indestructible + you need consent for possession. Mind control? Consent again. Subjective reality? Probably has limits + can be overpowered by other users. Concept Manip? If you didn't make the concept, you need to waste power trying to take control of it to use it. Etc.
Of course, this largely applies post descent into Eä.
WotR Sauron is basically a cripple compared to his usual state. He's still potent and capable of physically interacting and stuff (unlike the Movie, depending on if the Hobbit or Extended Edition retcons the who no physical form thing) but he has lost most of his power.
Like Denethor says, Sauron isn't a frontline leader, especially by the WotR (less so in the FA or SA). He leaves combat to his subordinates till the last, and contente himself with management and delegation (and support from afar).
A lot of the higher end powers aren't simple + aren't that useful in the Legendarium. Time travel? Doesn't affect the present. Soul Manip? Every soul can fight back (to varying extents) + are indestructible + you need consent for possession. Mind control? Consent again. Subjective reality? Probably has limits + can be overpowered by other users. Concept Manip? If you didn't make the concept, you need to waste power trying to take control of it to use it. Etc.
Of course, this largely applies post descent into Eä.
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- #734
Tbh, there is always one more thing to point out. Tolkien was trying to write a good fantasy story. "Powerscaling" and power in general were secondary concerns, especially in a world where God exists to ensure everything reaches a good end.
Lordhesperus
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bruh, these guys on reddit are playing it safe with their half-baked knowledge of Tolkien legendarium.
Hsharpe
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My thoughts exactly.
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Uh, did I say that? I'm definetly not in favour of that if I ever did argue it.
Hsharpe
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Here
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Edit: Misread.
Yeah, you can argue that the abilities are at a High 1-A+ level for being the same concepts that were made by that key, but I would not.
The Ainur have undergone a qualitative reduction and are now bound to the time and space of the universe in scope. They shouldn't be able to therefore access the totality.
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Where this from?What kind of bs reasoning is this?
Hsharpe
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Oh it's from YT? No wonder why these comments are there Lmao. There is no point in debating with them in YT. Tier 0 Eru is already accepted anyway.
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Lordhesperus
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I would support your point of view.
Eru Ilúvatar is rightly described as ineffable because he exists beyond thought and transcends all identity and multiplicity as described here. and keep in mind that identity is another synonym for name/term/description even Eru is called Nameless. so this supports the conditions for the ineffable of Eru.
so a person who says this in the youtube comments like:
so in my opinion, what he says is contradictory to the fact.
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Eru's bloody omnipotent.
Hsharpe
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Fair point.
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1. Eh, they don't really hage a specific resistance, though of course Power Null is a very varied thing. Moreover, a lot of things derive from Eru and thus cannot be nullified.
No specific character is therefore immine to power null, but such things as the attributes of the Eldar derive from Eru and thus cannot be nullified.
2. Probably, so long as they are a type of ability he has been shown capable of copying and thus not NLF.
Hsharpe
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So what I'm getting from this is that they do have resistance to power null, albeit not specific and not direct, right? Unless you mean it in another way.
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Basically. Though I don't really know which specifically would "resist" power null. I haven't scoured the notes for that yet.
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GER probably not? Most LotR characters worth their salt have resistance to empathic, stronger ones getting layered resistances. Acausality in LotR prevents changes to the past and present fron affecting the present and this is from Eru. Powerful Ainur in general also can design fate for individuals, even those with "free-will" who can defy fate (to an extent).Question yet again (I have so so many
Would GER’s Return to Zero and Death Loop and Wonder of U’s Calamity work on LOTR characters?
Wonder of U is less resisted since free-will seems to have some limits against fate. Potent Ainur however can design their own fate and can manip causality themselves.
Don't think One Ring has attack reflection.
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I saw War of the Rohirrim last night. While it wasn't perfect (you can definitely tell the animation was cheaply sourced) there was so much love put into the film itself. They NAILED Helm, and man did they do him and his sons justice. There were genuinely moments that I got chills in the theater. My personal opinion is that we need more Tolkien anime pronto.
Hsharpe
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Make the SILMARILLION an anime. THAT would honestly be god-tier, especially for the early ages of Arda and Eä like the battles of the Valar and Melkor, show their godlike power more. At least that's what I think.
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