Looking at the Master Roshi moon feat again.

[NeoLunacorva]

So, for a long time, this feat has been seen as an outlier, by the logic that King Picollo (Who is far stronger), could only destroy a city.

But... is that truly the case? We know that characters in Dragon Ball can focus the energy of their attacks to limit environmental destruction (Like how casually Universal level fighters like SSB Goku don't blow up the planet with every stray ki blast) and Picollo's goal was to RULE the world. not destroy it (I think Moon Level attacks qualify as potential Life Wipers, correct?

The TLR is: Is it possible that Master Roshi and all stronger Dragon Ball characters ARE Moon Level, and simply contained the AOE so as to not wipe out all life on the planet?

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

There is another Moon feat in DB and one statement for Teen Goku being able to bust the moon...

 

[SunWukong1986]

I also talked about it over here https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2533606, and others agreed about it. Even others have noticed about the AoE and also for me about Ki Control.

 

[SunWukong1986]

And yes, King Piccolo's plan was not to destroy the world, but conquer it for world domination. He treated it as a lottery by deciding the number based on whichever city he would destroy, and he looked pretty casual, yet intimidating. Others say that Master Roshi's moon busting feat is an outlier because they never saw the character capable of destroying anything that's planetoid on Dragon Ball, yet they actually aknowleged about Cell's solar system busting feat from not only in manga and anime, but also guides and games that adapt and informs the readers and viewers about it.

 

[Kepekley23]

> There is another Moon feat in DB

Performed by Piccolo, who is uncountable orders of magnitudes stronger than Roshi, and even then he was still exhausted by his feat. This is self-debunking.

> one statement for Teen Goku being able to bust the moon...

The Daizenshuu also states that Piccolo Daimaoh's power rivals that of a nuclear bomb.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

aaaa yes more AoE logic abuse that could be used to "disprove" any outliers.

 

[Kepekley23]

> and he looked pretty casual, yet intimidating.

Piccolo Daimaoh outright stated that if he fired two of them in a row, he'd be out of a fight for good due to exhaustion.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Roshi's Kamehameha previously showcased vastly inferior power when it destroyed Mount Fry-Pan, so for it to jump to 5-C out of the blue is an outlier.

 

[SunWukong1986]

You're just saying it just to make it sound false, even though we LITERALLY see it happened. Roshi should be scaled up to Goku when it comes to potential growth throughout the series. Piccolo destroying the moon BoZ didn't even look exhausted. You don't see him feeling fatigued after destroying the moon as Gohan (Great Ape) is wreaking havoc like Goku after using x4 Kaioken Kamehameha to push back Vegeta's Earth-destroying Galick Gun. Plus, Master Roshi accidentally destroyed Ox King's castle that sits upon the mountain instead of blowing away the flames, so he basically overdid it as he clearly expresses it. The moment when he destroyed the moon, he didn't have enough power to fire more Ki Blasts, and the same goes to Goku, so all they have to do is fight with their martial arts and they're both equal in terms of power, until Roshi beats him due to height advantage to end the match. You just want them to be weak, aren't you?

 

[Kepekley23]

> Didn't even look exhausted

https://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11124/111240836/5538784-5674996873-MR-24.jpg

 

[SunWukong1986]

But didn't he just penetrated a being who is capable to taking over a planet? And they did state that Saiyan babies are capable of taking over planets once they became a Great Ape. He still has plenty of energy to fly off after using magic materialization of making Gohan some clothes and weapon.

 

[Kepekley23]

I don't even understand what you are trying to say at this point.

 

[SunWukong1986]

It has been years to still say that Roshi is not a moon buster. Sure the part with Goku outpacing light from a Solar Flare might be controversial, but come on. It took you that long to accept Cell being Solar System level?

 

[Kepekley23]

What does Cell have to do with anything? Who even mentioned Cell?

 

[SunWukong1986]

Making an example.

 

[Kepekley23]

Roshi destroyed the Moon. Nobody denies that the feat happened. What we disagree with is it being applicable. It is clearly a massive outlier.

 

[SunWukong1986]

But did you factor in the difference when they use their power during the tournament compared to the power they use in the battlefield? If they don't control their power, they could've killed their opponent by accident, and you can get disqualified.

 

[SunWukong1986]

I have been rewatching and reading it several times over to not miss the detail. And I even tried to look for the sources about it unlike you guys having pamphlets or guides of your own since I don't have the money, or have someone to translate for you like they do.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The main canon is the manga, not the anime. Also Goku had prior knowledge and showcased FTE speed to Tien when the Solar Flare happened, so I don't think it's applicable.

 

[SunWukong1986]

It also happened in the manga, from Toriyama's own finger tips with the help of his assistant to fill in the blanks. So it should be applicable. Toei just brings life with animation.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Huh? The anime just has some notable differences for the purposes of better flow and padding. It's okay for secondary clarification but not much else (except for the Toei profiles of course).

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Master Roshi is only a moon buster with his full concentrated Kamehameha. He has to power-weight into his MAX power and then fully charge a Super Kamehameha to perform a moon busting feat...so it's more like he might be city-level casually but is moon-level with the MAX Kamehameha. It's canonical that Kamehameha multiplies power level (see Raditz fight where Goku's power level increases by around 2.3x) and it's reasonable to believe that Roshi's Original Kamehameha has a greater multiplication (as a result of him being the inventor and master of the technique).

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Also I already know that someone might think of why Roshi wouldn't juse use the MAX Kamehameha to stop Piccolo but the reasoning is pretty obvious. His MAX power-weighting pretty obviously limits his mobility heavily (like Grade 3 Super Saiyan/Ultra Super Saiyan) and the Kamehameha takes a great deal of time to charge into the Super Kamehameha. The Mafuba is faster, harder to dodge and is generally the only real option against a guy who could just step out of the way of a MAX Kamehameha...to add further a MAX Kamehameha runs the risk of basically ruining the entire planet if Roshi screws up.

 

[Damage3245]

THe MAX Kamehameha could reach the Moon in seconds.

There is no way old Demon King Piccolo is side-stepping that.

The feat is the purest definition of an outlier there is in Dragon Ball.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Who says it's the blast itself? Roshi is incredibly slow in the MAX state. Piccolo could just use his eyes and simply move away before the attack is fired.

 

[SunWukong1986]

I believe it took almost 2 seconds for light to travel from Earth to Moon.

 

[SunWukong1986]

I'm not sure if his MAX Powered state actually slows him down when he used it against the Frieza soldiers in both tv and film compared to Trunks in his 3rd Grade Super Saiyan. In fact, Broly is jacked as a legendary Super Saiyan, and it dodn't slow him down. Roshi seemed mobile enough, it's how long he'd stay in that state in a long fight.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

But Broly is not ca- Oh right.

 

[SunWukong1986]

Ya walked right into it, huh? Forgetting that Toriyama has remade Broly for the film that'll be in cinema in English dub until January 16.

 

[Huesito88]

That's why he said "Oh right" =/

 

[Qawsedf234]

If Roshi isn't slowed down to any notable degree, then that only makes the moon feat even more of an outlier.

 

[SunWukong1986]

That was a rhetorical question.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

This is Roshi after blowing up the moon. He is so exhausted from using a single Max Kamehameha that he can't even make a standard Kamehameha to knock Goku out of the arena. If King Piccolo dodged or could avoid Roshi's Kamehameha it would leave Roshi effectively dead.
It's also worth noting that it takes considerable time and energy to even bulk up or to charge the Kamehameha. We also don't see Roshi using this power up in actual battle until RoF (When it's stated and shown in DBS that Roshi has grown over time due to personal training). In RoF he only used it against a bunch of mooks and his usage of the power up in the ToP is after regaining his vitality and after supposed secret training.

Let me put it this way. Roshi destroyed a MOON (a nearly stationary target) with a gargantuation energy wave directed into the sky. In his first usage of MAX Kamehameha he mistakenly ruined Fire Mountain due to him misguaging his power output. How exactly would Roshi kill King Piccolo with a moon busting technique of such speed and size if King Piccolo is standing on the Earth? This isn't a precision laser like a Death Beam after all.

Overall. The concept that the moon busting is an 'outlier' is utterly absurd when you apply basic sense and understand that Max Super Kamehameha Roshi >> King Piccolo >> Roshi and that a single Max Super Kamehameha renders Roshi near powerless.

 

[Damage3245]

What would you suggest the changes be?

Adding in the MAX Kamehameha as a separate key that nobody scales to except for Master Roshi?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Yes. Nobody scales to Max Kamehameha anyways. Roshi only ever uses it against a mountain and the moon in the original series and then uses his MAX form against Frieza soldiers (who could be any tier that is fodder to the Z Fighters) and in the Tournament of Power after regaining his vitality where he is far stronger than ever before.

If I recall...Omega Shenron recently got a key for his Minus Energy that makes him 3-A when using a Minus Energy Ball but 3-B otherwise. So I don't see why Master Roshi wouldn't get the same. The only real evidence for the moon busting being an outlier is the city-level Piccolo being insanely difficult for Roshi to ever hope to defeat but like I said a Max Kamehameha pointed at the Earth would be extremely dangerous and would take great energy and considerable time to pull off.

It is sensible for Base Roshi to be weaker than King Piccolo but MAX Roshi to be moon level in my mind.

 

[SunWukong1986]

At least Cryo made sense, unlike you guys who still says it's still outlier. Do not forget that when they use Ki-based attacks, it boosts their overall strength. Toriyama has already shown us the power increase from characters who wears a Scouter saw their opponent's power level skyrocket as they build up their strength, like Goku's Kamehameha, Piccolo's Makankosappo, and Gohan's Masenko. That's what I said about Roshi having to fight with their martial arts since he doesn't have that much Ki in his reserves to push off Goku, but no.

 

[Dark649]

I agree with Kep. Also that Roshi feat is actually Relativistic 5-B and it scales to 23┬░ Budokai Goku and Piccolo since Goku kamehameha i heard it was stated to be stronger than Roshi.

 

[TataHakai]

If you think a moon and relativistic feat around chapter 40 amongst 200 chapters of mostly building to city level attacks with 1 small country level feat is consistent then there's not much to say besides reconsider what an outlier is.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Yes. I do consider it consistent. When the feat occurred doesn't matter when you consider that the Super Kamehameha multiplies power level by over two times and MAX Roshi is far more powerful than base Roshi. Stack the two together and it's not hard to see how Roshi would reach that level of power.

"But the gap is large!" Yeah? Why does that matter? This is a story where characters can go from moon-level to dwarf star level in just a year or so of training. Goku is even stated to be moon-level with his Super Kamehameha in the 23rd Budokai (As a user stated. Sourced from the daizenshuu). Goku can go from being Wall level to being a moon buster in less than ten years w/o multiplying his power but Roshi using his most powerful technique and using his MAX power-up, when his baseline is city block-level, can't?

I can understand claiming something is an outlier when it is never referenced again or is just something ridiculous that happened briefly and was never mentioned again but Master Roshi's destruction of the moon is a vital plot point that impacts the rest of the story (by preventing Goku turning into a Great Ape). Toriyama's decision to have Goku turn into a Great Ape didn't back him into a corner. It is explicitly clear that he intended on Roshi destroying the moon the very moment that he had Goku transform.

The statement that King Piccolo is only city-level is also ridiculous when you consider that King Piccolo states that he would destroy an entire region of the world (stated to have been countries) which would make him 6-B. But when I look at other threads pertaining to this statement people claim it's a outlier or hyperbole which is utterly absurd.

The only supporting evidence for King Piccolo being city-level is his strongest attack wiping out an entire city and having drained his energy. But, guess what? King Piccolo likes to slowly torture and humiliate people. He wants to RULE the world not DESTROY it. What's more reasonable when considering all of the other feats and statements? That Piccolo concentrated his strongest attack to avoid destroying a massive chunk of the earth? or that Piccolo is lying about his ability to destroy entire regions of the world?

Overall I have to say that my impression of this argument is that people are stubbornly clinging to a singular feat and are ignoring King Piccolo's personality, motivations and statements due to some weird resistance to the idea that he should be country-level. When you scale a city-block level Roshi to a country-level King Piccolo and note the logical consistency of how ridiculously dangerous and hard it would be for Roshi to pull off a MAX Kamehameha against Piccolo...it comes off as very sensible.

23rd Goku = Piccolo Junior (Moon-level) >> MAX Kamehameha Roshi (Completely drains his energy but is a moon-level attack) >> King Piccolo (Country-level without multiplying techniques/power-ups) >>> Roshi (at least city-block level in base)

 

[Dark649]

It's not a Moon level attack, it's a Planet level one with Relativistic attack speed [from reaching the moon] since moon busting attacks are likely on that range, King Piccolo was likely boosting himself with his statements since he is overconfident wants to cause fear on the people of the earth, also if he does not want to destroy the earth then he woud have not said that he would have destroyed a country and would have destroyed a much larger area against Goku.