Limbo vs Reinhard. I hope god won't smite me for this.

[Rocker1189]

Honestly, I dont see why the connection between the operator and Warframe is being seen as so basic. As far as I know they are literally providing energy to Limbo, isnt that a connection in itself?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

@Eganergo

She's a gudou at the start and hadou by the end I'm pretty sure.

No one's saying he can't hit Limbo, some people are saying he can't hit the Operator who is the one creating new Limbos and controlling them from afar.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Somewhere else in the solar system controlling the frame

We were told that Rein could perfectly see everything happening in the city while sealed in gladsheim which wasn't there at the time so it was said that he has more than enough sensing range

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Honestly, I dont see why the connection between the operator and Warframe is being seen as so basic. As far as I know they are literally providing energy to Limbo, isnt that a connection in itself?

I think people are seriously wanking how loose that "connection" needs to be.

Then again I don't know how the Operator is actually connected to the Limbos, but it doesn't seem like it's enough from what's described.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Somewhere else in the solar system controlling the frame
We were told that Rein could perfectly see everything happening in the city while sealed in gladsheim which wasn't there at the time so it was said that he has more than enough sensing range

Yeah, the city where Merc had everything set up to watch over.

Do not even try to wank Reinhard's sensing range to outerversal. Just no.

 

[Rocker1189]

From what I know the Operator is in some device, like a full body VR dive gear, and controls the warframe while providing energy for it, honestly its been over a year since I played lol. I am going to check the wiki.

But I see you meant from the reinhard side well I dont know about that either lmao.

 

[Rocker1189]

quick question, does the spear affect the consciousness and power of its target upon being hit?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

So based on what Monarch said, Rein can't sense the operator?

 

[Paul_Frank]

Rein perfectly saw everything in the city from gladsheim. This was implied to be something he did himself not that merc was involved

The operator used to be on the moon but post Second Dream they are on their ship somewhere in the solar system

The operator also can not logically have infinite limbos already made and it takes time to craft a new one so that would eventually run out either way

The operator provides energy to and controls the warframes. After they were exposed to the void their power was too much for them and the frames were made to focus their power. So the frames are kinda like M-Bodies in a way but mechanical. They are used to focus the power of the tenno and are powered and controlled by their energy and conciousness in addition the tenno can see and hear what the frames see and hear

 

[Rocker1189]

according to the wiki the operato tranfers their consciousness and power to the warframe when they take control of it, doesnt that mean that any attacks that affect the mind would affect the operator?

 

[Everything12]

according to the wiki the operato tranfers their consciousness and power to the warframe when they take control of it, doesnt that mean that any attacks that affect the mind would affect the operator?

Transfers or links, because if it's transfer what would happen when Limbo is taken to Gladheimr?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

according to the wiki the operato tranfers their consciousness and power to the warframe when they take control of it, doesnt that mean that any attacks that affect the mind would affect the operator?

Not rly, they transfer void avatars. Void avatars are literally void energy, not the consciousness of the operator. Void Avatars are to warframes what electricity is to a toy car.

 

[Rocker1189]

this is what the wiki says:

Operators control the Warframes through a process known as Transference, which uses a device called the Somatic Link to aid in channeling and consequently transfer the Operator's consciousness and powers into their Warframes that they control as a surrogate body, even over long distances.

It says that they use their void powers to do this, not a void avatar whatever that is. And even if it is some called void avatars, they still have the operators consciousness and powers in them, attacking the warframe mentally should definitely affect the operator.

 

[Paul_Frank]

They transfer the conciousness the void avatar is what is summoned when you use operator mode in game with the amps

 

[Firephoenixearl]

As far as i recall that was never stated in the actual lore and it's just how the wiki devs interpret it.

 

[Rocker1189]

well if you have some counter evidence it would be great for you to provide it...

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Rein perfectly saw everything in the city from gladsheim. This was implied to be something he did himself not that merc was involved

It was never "implied" to be anything, it was just something that went without saying that they weren't just sitting up there blind. However, he was for all intents and purposes looking out the window of his castle into a city that was created for the express purpose of being used for the ritual and had the foundation for the swatiska set up around it. Of course they'd want to have some way to keep watch there.

There is absolutely nothing that even comes close to implying that Reinhard has solar system wide clairvoyance or soul sensing. If you try to say that Reinhard has outerversal range senses that can sense everything in the solar system or further, I will tell you here and now that you are flat out wrong.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Well if Rein cant find The Operator then wouldnt this be Incon? Or has other Win-Cons popped up for Rein?

 

[Rocker1189]

I still believe from what I have found that affecting Limbo mentally would affect the Operator, not physically though, so if rein is using mind hax or something then it should work, power draining too since the Operator sends his power to Limbo.

 

[Paul_Frank]

What rocker said

He could also just make the operator run out of limbos

Also @monarch occams razor

It takes less assumptions to say that the person with 1-A hax and abilities, that is stated to see everything from his castle that is detached from the world of foreknowledge, can sense things at at least solar system ranges then it does to say that he has some unmentioned method of viewing the entire city perfectly from his castle that exists outside of the world of foreknowledge, with nothing implying this

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Rocker. You'd have to prove you can affect the operator thorugh that.

Power drain ofc, but that's a bit trickier as The Operator houses TMiTW, gonna be a lot of work to drain all that energy.

Running out of limbos...nah. Specters for days and the 2nd Limbo won't be dumb enough to try and go close to Reinhard.

@Paul

Not rly. Occam's Razor is applied in 2 cases with equal potency. Example: "Stopping time on a universal scale" vs "Stopping everything (but not time) on a universal scale". In this case stopping time is taken as true due to Occam's Razor. That doesn't mean you can apply Occam's Razor to city wide range vs Outerversal range, if this only exists in 1 case and that case is special (in this case the city had the swastikas and the things monarch said). You have to have more proof than Monarch as your claim is FAR greater.

 

[Rocker1189]

You'd have to prove you can affect the operator thorugh that.

??The operators consciousness is tranferred to the warframe affecting the warframe's "mind" means you affect the operator, its that simple.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Reinhard does not have solar system wide clairvoyance or soul sensing.

Prove he does, with scans, or drop the argument.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

You'd have to prove you can affect the operator thorugh that.??The operators consciousness is tranferred to the warframe affecting the warframe's "mind" means you affect the operator, its that simple.

Again, i don't remember that claim in the game, if you do find it, pls show me. I would not mind changing it if you can prove that the operator's consciousness is there. It's much more logical to say he manipulates his body like he usually does with people given that the operator is not put into a coma like state when he does transferrence, than saying "it transfers consciousness by sending void energy?", given that the operator and warframe can act in the same time.

Also we gotta still apply potency to the operator's mind hax and resistance from TMiTW. Given that's it's the energy that enslaves people that are so much as exposed to it in a universe of it's own, it seems at least comparable (lower or greater) to Reinhards, but i don't think there is any definitive way to apply that.

 

[Rocker1189]

If they are not put in a coma like state it just means, that they are able to maintain their real body too, again you are the person that has to prove this not me...

 

[Paul_Frank]

@fire

The operator actually dosen't operate at the same time as the franes besides umbra because he's special. When you send a void avatar out in missions it shuts the warframe down completely

@monarch

I don't have access to a computer rn so I can't but as stated it takes less assumptions to say that when the scene before the fight on the roof in the Rea route literally says he can see everything in the city from glads, that they mean he can see everything in the city than it does to say he has some unmentioned unimplied t.v screen that's livestreaming the city just because the swastikas are there

 

[Paul_Frank]

At this point this thread has turned into a mini CRT for warframe.

Why doesn't someone just make a CRT, we finish that then we can remake this fight

 

[Firephoenixearl]

If they are not put in a coma like state it just means, that they are able to maintain their real body too, again you are the person that has to prove this not me...

I believe you are missunderstanding your situation here. Im saying the logical deduction.

• Given how the operator can take on bodies of warframes who are mindless and even those that have a mind and consciousness (like Umbra, which directly contradicts the placing the consciousness there), they just manipulate their bodies like anyone would manipulate the bodies of any toy.

• How he is conscious and can act at the same time as the warframe.

• How inside the warframes is a "void avatar" which is shown to come directly out of the body of the warframe, and when this "energy" is out, the warframe can't move (if the consciousness were there there'd be no reason why the warframe would be shut down.

etc

You are saying "no that's not true the consciousness is transferred" you have any proof for this claim? In this case your claim is superior, so you have to have some kind of statement or scan that that is true.

@Paul

You may have heard the operator talk or give hints during missions same as how the lotus does. And the fact that the warframe becomes immobile once the void avatar is out just proves "my" point that it's "energy" that's moving the operator, not consciousness.

 

[Rocker1189]

You are saying "no that's not true the consciousness is transferred"

That is not at all what I am saying, I am saying that you need to provide the proof for these claims, I am going off the wiki. You stated 3 things there I am hoping you can prove them?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

@monarch

I don't have access to a computer rn so I can't but as stated it takes less assumptions to say that when the scene before the fight on the roof in the Rea route literally says he can see everything in the city from glads, that they mean he can see everything in the city than it does to say he has some unmentioned unimplied t.v screen that's livestreaming the city just because the swastikas are there

...

By the time that fight happens gladshiemr has already engulfed the city no shit Reinhard can see what's going on in the city then Gladshiemr's practically part of his body and you want to know something else it's literally said by Shirou who gained understanding of the ritual that if he and Ren literally just left the city and didn't bother with making the final swastika then Reinhard and Gladshiemr would be trapped there in the city and only the city.

So no, he doesn't have outerversal range senses.

 

[Paul_Frank]

@fire

Not really because they also have to use their conciousness to control the avatar so it actually supports the fact that they use their conciousness

Umbra is a special case for literally everything and goes against alot of the established things for warframe so I wouldn't really use him for examples also I wouldn't really consider the operator talking during missions to say simple things like "We fight with honor" as evidence that their conciousness isn't in the frames

 

[Firephoenixearl]

At this point this thread has turned into a mini CRT for warframe.
Why doesn't someone just make a CRT, we finish that then we can remake this fight

Are you implying Reinhard's not having a mini CRT here?

 

[PsychoWarper]

@Monarch

So what is Reinhards max range for his soul sensing?

 

[Paul_Frank]

Nah he is but his CRTs never get resolved anyway and likely never will

But either way I think it would be better if crts for either or both of these characters are made, finished then the fight is remade

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@fire
Not really because they also have to use their conciousness to control the avatar so it actually supports the fact that they use their conciousness

Umbra is a special case for literally everything and goes against alot of the established things for warframe so I wouldn't really use him for examples also I wouldn't really consider the operator talking during missions to say simple things like "We fight with honor" as evidence that their conciousness isn't in the frames

Nowhere is that stated or said. Energy manipulation allows people to manipulate energy without transferring consciousness. Why would manipulating void energy be different?

Umbra is just a warframe who has a mind (and a soul too i guess), so everything is still applicable, he just has a mind unlike other warframes.

Manipulating energy inside robots doesn't need consciousness. Our energy manip defaults/standards don't say that you need consciousness to manipulate energy. You're saying that this case is different, im not using "we fight with honor, my warframe is strong" or anything that the warframes say during lore/quests while the warframe is acting as the only evidence, im using that as further evidence. The claims on consciousness are baseless, the standards don't force that, and there are some things in the game that contradict that. Do pls show me where it says that consciousness is involved in any way.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Nah he is but his CRTs never get resolved anyway and likely never will
But either way I think it would be better if crts for either or both of these characters are made, finished then the fight is remade

This will still end in Inconc, CRT or not. Rein can't sense limbo, which means invisible specters just surround him till inconc.

CRT will mostly be for the stuff like synthesis scanner, the potency of mindhax and void energy etc.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I agree with Monarch, so lets drop it.

Also how is this an incon? Rein destroys one robot and the other is a coward to get close while Rein is just chillin there, let's say that Rein is disappointed with the first one, destroys it and puts Glads on stand by like in IKaBey, then what?

The second Limbo just self BFR himself? He tries to approach Rein?

Remember that Limbo doesn't have any sort of previous knowledge here so he doesn't know that killing Rein is useless nor that Glads has a time limit.

In the end I vote for Rein, he disconnects one and the other either tries to get close in a stealthy way just to get disconnected too or self BFRs, then as the others pointed there are no more limbos to fight and tbe Operator is just an useless way to say "Hey, you didn't kill him too, inconclusive lul".

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Sorry for the second post but I won't be available for the next hours, I need to go to the hospital to get my vision checked and probably get some glasses.

 

[PsychoWarper]

For now I think ill vote Rein for Tony's reasoning.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Inconc because:

Reinhard cannot end the fight (cannot kill the operator).

Limbo can attack endlessly using Specters

Limbo has several ways to learn about Reinhard's abilities (maybe not the 1-A ones, but most of them), which gives him enough knowledge to be on standby.

Reinhard is inside Glads, Limbo will just be waiting outside waiting for Reinhard to come out. Reinhard cannot sense either Limbo or The Operator. So reinhard cannot end the fight and neither can Limbo as long as Glads is up. Once Glads is down it'll have been inconc for QUITE A WHILE.

So to sum up:

Reinhard goes into glads. Limbo can't end Reinhard, Reinhard doesn't even realize his opponent exists anymore. So he stays in glads, Limbo waits outside (since info manip will have already given info on some stuff of his like mind hax, immortality, regen etc, and about the others which he can't scan he will logically be even more wary of those (if his opponent has something his scanner cannot even comprehend and he will see what happened to the first Limbo. He won't try to attack, but will rather wait. Neither can end the fight.