Light Manipulation via Flashlights

[Catzlaflame]

Introduction​

Will preface by saying this: if I am outvoted/incorrect on this then I will accept the lapse in judgement on my part; even if I disagree with something, the site strives to be as democratic as possible and I respect that. That being said...

Yesterday, I deleted a page with a single P/A; ignoring the fact that ONE P/A is an issue in of itself, the P/A in question was Light Manipulation by virtue of weilding a flashlight. I disagreed with this because it didn't seem like an acceptable application of light manipulation, but after discusssing it with some people in the Profile Deletion Request Thread, they provided numerous examples of pages where this is the case:

• Vanny
• Courage
• Indiana Jones
• Ash Williams
• The Player (Doors)
• K1-BO
• Heather Mason
• Flint Lockwood
• Batman
• Thatcher Davis
• Security Guard
• Carmen Sandiego

To clarify, as per what these users said, these characters do not use supernatural flashlights, nor do any of them have extremely unique connections to the flashlights (i.e., flashlights integrated into the palms of their hands or something), according to the users, these are regular flashlights.

My Issue With This + Addressing Counters ​

Since the crux of my argument can be conveyed by countering the points that were brought up... I will do that.

Counter: A character with a flashlight having light manipulation, is like a character with a flame thrower having fire manipulation.
My Response: A flamethrower is a weapon not a household, day-to-day object; I really gotta ask, at what point do we draw the line? Tazers, Flamethrowers, Guns, etc are all weapons making them more relevant for a site dedicated to indexing battle boarding feats. So no, using a flashlight for light manip would not be similar to using a flamethrower for fire manip (at least in this context); it would be more akin to giving a character Air manipulation for using a normal fan.

Counter: On the Light Manipulation Page, a limitation that is listed as an ACCEPTABLE limition is: "User May be unable to create light, being limited to manipulating only from already existing sources". Therefore, using a flashlight for light manip is acceptable since the person isnt required to emit the light themselves.
My Response: The user isn't even manipulating the light itself. The machine is the the thing that "manipulates" (if this is even considered manipulation) the light.

Counter: The image on the Light Maniplulation page "has someone using something as an alternative to a flashlight."
My Response: Harry Potter pouring out his magic into a magic wand to emit light is very different from a person using a flashlight.

Counter: Humans cannot create light naturally, so using a flashlight to do so should be a power
My Response: Humans can't do a lot of things. Do we index everything that humans can't do as a power and/or ability? No.

Counter: There are multiple cases where a simple flashlight may be combat-viable (against characters weak to light, at least)
My Response: A character being weak to light is a weakness on the part of that character, NOT an ability of the character weilding a flashlight as a weapon. I can apply this logic to literally anything. If a character is weak to water, and I dump a water bottle on them, does that give me water manipulation? No.


As an addendum, to everything mentioned above, and to summarize my point in one sentence: I'm saying there has to be a point where enough is enough with how equipment can be interpreted as a power in the P/A; following this line of thinking, the possibilities would be nigh-endless which is just unnessecary in my view.

Is a Flashlight an acceptable form of Light Manip?​

Agree with OP: Deagon, Bambu, Dereck, Andytremon, LordGriffen, Planck, Damage, Garrixian

Disagree with Op: TIlmberg, Propellus

 

[Catzlaflame]

@DarkDragonMedeus @DarkGrath @LordGriffin1000 @Deagonx @Propellus @Damage3245 @Elizhaa @Dereck03

If you all could spare a moment, it would be appreciated.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This is not "Manipulating Light" more so it's just specifically generating light.

 

[Deagonx]

I agree with removing such instances. I recognize the issue with there being a somewhat nebulous notion of when the application of a power through equipment qualifies, but that's what staff judgment is for. I'm fine with fire manipulation for a flamethrower, not for a cigarette lighter.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

This seems more like a possible staff thread.
Anyways is this subject only for flashlights? I'm sure this applies to a lot more than just flashlights, where do you draw the line between what is a power from an object and what is just an object?
One could argue that a flashlight can "counter" darkness to some extent as such being "a useful power"
Not disagreeing just questioning. Should there be a sort of rule that only objects that are technologically or magically "more advanced" than real life count as abilities?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Generating something would, traditionally, fall within the manipulation of it. However, in this instance, it seems so mundane and unworthy of mention that it should not be considered outright Light Manipulation. Allowing such technicalities (well it does create light...) sends us down a very silly rabbit hole of technicalities. All humans should have Light Manipulation, we're all very slightly bio-luminescent, all humans should have Acid Manipulation due to the ability to break down materials we eat via stomach acid, etc, etc, so on and so forth...

These are all, obviously, silly to put on a page, and render the entire system purposeless. So to does Light Manipulation (has a flashlight). If the light is supernatural or possesses some additional context to it that makes it notable, then it should be noted- if the flashlight specifically blinds the undead, for example, it's fine. My only qualm is with the insignificant being mentioned, it serves no purpose other than padding a page pointlessly.

 

[Dereck03]

I agree with removing such instances. I recognize the issue with there being a somewhat nebulous notion of when the application of a power through equipment qualifies, but that's what staff judgment is for. I'm fine with fire manipulation for a flamethrower, not for a cigarette lighter.

This thoughs pretty much align with mine. I do agree with not allowing/removing these instaces of light manipulation being used.

 

[Andytrenom]

Before we get to this, I will just say that a character not being eligible to be removed on account of no notable powers because he has a flashlight is really stupid. Even if you find some merit to represent having a flashlight as light manipulation that doesn't mean a normal character holding a mundane item is inherently notable

I really disagree with these types of abilities where you represent something very mundane as a power. Realistic tools being listed as powers can be worthwhile if there's a general combat application that isn't far fetched and will often come up when discussing them, but we have to draw a limit. Sometimes it just feels like bloating a P&A for the sake of it

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Generating something would, traditionally, fall within the manipulation of it. However, in this instance, it seems so mundane and unworthy of mention that it should not be considered outright Light Manipulation. Allowing such technicalities (well it does create light...) sends us down a very silly rabbit hole of technicalities. All humans should have Light Manipulation, we're all very slightly bio-luminescent, all humans should have Acid Manipulation due to the ability to break down materials we eat via stomach acid, etc, etc, so on and so forth...

These are all, obviously, silly to put on a page, and render the entire system purposeless. So to does Light Manipulation (has a flashlight). If the light is supernatural or possesses some additional context to it that makes it notable, then it should be noted- if the flashlight specifically blinds the undead, for example, it's fine. My only qualm is with the insignificant being mentioned, it serves no purpose other than padding a page pointlessly.

I can agree with this.

I think it's more about what the character does with it. It should just be listed on equipment if for basic use.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

I was involved in the last convo and I wanna start by pointing out a mistake I made on the list: K1-B0's flashlight is apart of his arm and therefore probably doesn't count for the purposes of the thread. It's still a flashlight, he's just a robot and so it's in his arm

That being said, I think flashlights are noteworthy enough to be listed as Minor/Limited Light Manipulation (with a "via Flashlight" thrown in) as long as the character has one as Standard Equipment. That's my stance, and I'll go over it more below

Flashlights are much more combat viable than most people are giving them credit for. A simple flashlight is a good enough counter to Stealth Mastery and Darkness Manipulation, and a character who uses them as such (namely Heather Mason) should obviously have it listed. There are also characters who are weak to light from simple flashlights, such as the Killers from Dead By Daylight, the Taken from Alan Wake, and The Grundle from Ninjago.

Personally, I don't think a "Minor/Limited Light Manipulation via Flashlight" is any worse than say, "Electricity Manipulation via Taser" (which is very common) or "Fire Manipulation via Flamethrower". Flashlights have nicher uses in combat, sure, but still notable ones. However, I do think it would be silly to give a character Water Manipulation for holding a water bottle a few times. A simple water bottle doesn't have nearly enough combat application as a flashlight does, even against characters weak to water

So basically, I think a fair compromise here would be

• Only Limited or Minor Light Manipulation is granted via a flashlight
• Characters must have a flashlight as part of their Standard Equipment for it to be listed in their P/A

Some characters in the OP fit this (Vanny/Vanessa and Heather are rarely ever seen without their flashlights) and some don't (Courage and Indiana Jones?)

At the end of the day, they're still shooting a beam of bright light. That has combat applications and cannot be done naturally by humans

While not exactly relevant to the wider issue, I do think that a character only having one P/A via having a flashlight isn't very noteworthy. I do think the character in question's profile was created as a way to make pages look nicer due to multiple people scaling above him, but that's an issue for elsewhere.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I was involved in the last convo and I wanna start by pointing out a mistake I made on the list: K1-B0's flashlight is apart of his arm and therefore probably doesn't count for the purposes of the thread. It's still a flashlight, he's just a robot and so it's in his arm

That being said, I think flashlight are noteworthy enough to be listed as Minor/Limited Light Manipulation (with a "via Flashlight" thrown in) as long as the character has one as Standard Equipment. That's my stance, and I'll go over it more below

Flashlights are much more combat viable than most people are giving them credit for. A simple flashlight is a good enough counter to Stealth Mastery and Darkness Manipulation, and a character who uses them as such (namely Heather Mason) should obviously have it listed. There are also characters who are weak to light from simple flashlights, such as the Killers from Dead By Daylight, the Taken from Alan Wake, and The Grundle from Ninjago.

Personally, I don't think a "Minor/Limited Light Manipulation via Flashlight" is any worse than say, "Electricity Manipulation via Taser" (which is very common) or "Fire Manipulation via Flamethrower". Flashlights have nicher uses in combat, sure, but still notable ones. However, I do think it would be silly to give a character Water Manipulation for holding a water bottle a few times. A simple water bottle doesn't have nearly enough combat application as a flashlight does, even against characters weak to water

So basically, I think a fair compromise here would be

• Only Limited or Minor Light Manipulation is granted via a flashlight
• Characters must have a flashlight as part of their Standard Equipment for it to be listed in their P/A

Some characters in the OP fit this (Vanny/Vanessa and Heather are rarely ever seen without their flashlights) and some don't (Courage and Indiana Jones?)

At the end of the day, they're still shooting a beam of bright light. That has combat applications.

While not exactly relevant to the wider issue, I do think that a character only having one P/A via having a flashlight isn't very noteworthy. I do think the character in question's profile was created as a way to make pages look nicer due to multiple people scaling above him, but that's an issue for elsewhere.

In the right conditions anything is combat applicable. A bottle of water can counter fire manipulation and in the right hands can defeat Crocodile from One Piece and some robots that can short circuit with water. Heck if we consider the old Green lantern weakness to yellow even a yellow shirt or a piece of paper painted yellow is combat applicable.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

In the right conditions anything is combat applicable.

Yes, but I'm arguing that flashlights are more combat applicable than any household item. A good enough flashlight can disrupt vision or reveal a hidden foe, but a water bottle or handheld fan isn't going to be doing much except for incredibly niche situations

 

[Planck69]

Yeah, just using basic sense, this is just using a mundane item that isn't even notable in any combat relevant manner. I agree with the OP that it shouldn't be indexed as a power.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Yes, but I'm arguing that flashlights are more combat applicable than any household item. A good enough flashlight can disrupt vision or reveal a hidden foe, but a water bottle or handheld fan isn't going to be doing much except for incredibly niche situations

Bro, give Jonh Wick a pencil and tell him that flashlights are more combat applicable than any household item and see what happens.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Generating something would, traditionally, fall within the manipulation of it. However, in this instance, it seems so mundane and unworthy of mention that it should not be considered outright Light Manipulation. Allowing such technicalities (well it does create light...) sends us down a very silly rabbit hole of technicalities. All humans should have Light Manipulation, we're all very slightly bio-luminescent, all humans should have Acid Manipulation due to the ability to break down materials we eat via stomach acid, etc, etc, so on and so forth...

Pretty sure the baseline for stuff is humans, so I don't think this point really works.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Bro, give Jonh Wick a pencil and tell him that flashlights are more combat applicable than any household item and see what happens.

John Wick is a super soldier and humans are capable of stabbing things with anything sharp enough to do so (even fingernails and teeth in some cases).

Not many common household items can shoot a (sometimes blinding) beam of bright light

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Pretty sure the baseline for stuff is humans, so I don't this point really works.

I think it really does work, me personally. Also think it's super cool to think what I think. Maybe the coolest.

 

[Planck69]

Are we fr having a staff discussion over giving a power to a household appliance?

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

John Wick is a super soldier and humans are capable of stabbing things with anything sharp enough to do so (even fingernails and teeth in some cases).

And you don't have fingernails as "bodily weaponry" despite being combat applicable

Not many common household items can shoot a (sometimes blinding) beam of bright light

And a person with 2 stones can generate fire which might just be more useful than a flashlight

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Are we fr having a staff discussion over giving a power to a household appliance?

Do you know how those paper wrappings on food say "Don't eat this, this isn't the food"?

They're there because people did eat the wrapper.

That's sort of what we're doing here, stopping people from eating the wrapper.

If you don't care, you're free to not vote.

 

[Planck69]

I mean, I agree with the premise of the thread. It just feels a bit silly.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

And you don't have fingernails as "bodily weaponry" despite being combat applicable

because humans are the baseline

 

[Damage3245]

I agree with the OP. It's like giving Water Manipulation to someone who has a bottle of water.

We shouldn't need to index the blindingly obvious like "This character has the ability to breathe standard Earth atmosphere, and is resistant to 1 g of gravity."

Someone who has a flashlight in their equipment section can obviously produce light. Doesn't count as a power.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

And you don't have fingernails as "bodily weaponry" despite being combat applicable

Humans have very minor bioluminescence. That isn't enough for Light Manip. Same with nails and Bodily Weaponry or spit and Water Manipulation

However, a device that can create an amount of bright light that a human cannot naturally create, is something else entirely.

Same with a taser. We all have small amounts of electricity inside of us, but that isn't enough for Electricity Manip. However, a taser lets a person use much more electricity than they can naturally, and can be used for combat. That's enough for Electricity Manip, even it has a limited/minor slapped on

So why would a flashlight's beam not be the same way?

And a person with 2 stones can generate fire which might just be more useful than a flashlight

If you're trying to find someone who's hiding in a dark room, a flashlight is going to be infinitely more useful than starting a fire with twigs and two stones

 

[ShockingPsychic]

We shouldn't need to index the blindingly obvious like "This character has the ability to breathe standard Earth atmosphere, and is resistant to 1 g of gravity."

This is something that humans can do naturally though. Creating beams of bright light is not

Someone who has a flashlight in their equipment section can obviously produce light. Doesn't count as a power.

If they can produce light, shouldn't that be a (minor/limited) power?

Same with tasers. Would you not put "Minor/Limited Electricity Manipulation" for someone with a taser as long as they have it in the equipment section?

 

[Planck69]

A taser is specifically used offensively though and is made for such a scenario. It isn't at all comparable to a flashlight.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

A bottle of water also isn't really creating/manipulating water, while a flashlight is actually generating light.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

A taser is specifically used offensively though and is made for such a scenario.

Flashlights are used for illuminating things, which has offensive applications, and in some cases, can be used for blinding. Heck, there are flashlights made specifically for self-defense

Humans are not capable of these things without the use of a flashlight or other similar tool. To equate using a flashlight to "breathing air" is just silly.

I can see the water bottle comparison, but I would personally liken them more to a taser. Police officers and soldiers use flashlights on duty to track their targets, but you don't ever see them using a water bottle in a way that would do anything useful in a chase or combat scenario

 

[GarrixianXD]

Agreed.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I agree with the OP. It's like giving Water Manipulation to someone who has a bottle of water.

I wouldn't go that far but sure, your other points are valid.

 

[Damage3245]

I wouldn't go that far but sure, your other points are valid.

Hmm... Maybe more like giving Ice Manipulation to somebody who owns a fridge that dispenses ice cubes?

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Hmm... Maybe more like giving Ice Manipulation to somebody who owns a fridge that dispenses ice cubes?

Police officers and soldiers do not use ice cubes in chases or combat situations. There are not ice cubes made specifically for self-defense.

I think some of you are being a bit dismissive of my points, so I'll reiterate;

• Flashlights produce an amount of light that humans (or any bioluminescent animal for that matter) cannot create on their own.
• Police officers and soldiers use flashlights for tactical, combat-applicable reasons such as tracking targets in dark areas or disorienting them. Here is a clip of police officers pursuing a captive, notice how they're all using flashlights. None of them have ice cubes, strangely.
• There are flashlights used specifically for self-defense purposes, much like tasers or pepper spray
• As said before, flashlights have MUCH more general combat-applicable use than something like a water bottle or fridge. We don't give characters Ice Manip because they own a fridge because a fridge's ability to create ice has almost no combat uses. However, flashlights are still used by hunters, police, and soldiers for their tracking and disorienting capabilities.

So basically, I think a fair compromise here would be

• Only Limited or Minor Light Manipulation is granted via a flashlight by virtue of it only being done via a handheld device rather than the character themselves
• Characters must have a flashlight as part of their Standard Equipment for it to be listed in their P/A. This would only include characters who use a flashlight as apart of their main arsenal, such as police officers, soldiers, or other characters who's flashlight is always on their person, such as protagonists from the Resident Evil and Silent Hill series.

I also wanna ask about flashbangs. Are flashbangs not Light Manip either?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Hmm... Maybe more like giving Ice Manipulation to somebody who owns a fridge that dispenses ice cubes?

I guess that works. It cracked me up more than it should have. But yeah, I think we all can agree that we shouldn't give powers like that.

I also wanna ask about flashbangs. Are flashbangs not Light Manip either?

They are, but those are specifically designed to incapacitate and are for combat situations as far as I know.

 

[Propellus]

I still disagree, but I don't think I need to repeat myself since I've already given my opinion on another thread:

Honestly, I don't really see what's so wrong about noting Light Manipulation for those who have flashlights. Like that's like saying most characters shouldn't have energy projection just for owning laser guns/cannons or etc from the effects of the character's equipment. It's just a pointless change, and hell, even the image for Light Manipulation even has someone using something to an alternative to a flashlight.

Edit: I didn't notice the counter arguments earlier as I barely woke up, rip.

Counter: A character with a flashlight having light manipulation, is like a character with a flame thrower having fire manipulation.



My Response: A flamethrower is a weapon not a household, day-to-day object; I really gotta ask, at what point do we draw the line? Tazers, Flamethrowers, Guns, etc are all weapons making them more relevant for a site dedicated to indexing battle boarding feats. So no, using a flashlight for light manip would not be similar to using a flamethrower for fire manip (at least in this context); it would be more akin to giving a character Air manipulation for using a normal fan.

That still sets up a double-standard here. It shouldn't matter if the standard equipment is not meant to be combat applicable or not, we always index whatever reliable abilities everything else has on site otherwise they'll just be riddled with missing information. And then again, it's not noting "Limited" for no reason. But hey, if you wanna to talk about "battle boarding" feats in this category, they are rather useful to use in dark backgrounds or for blinding the opponent.

Counter: On the Light Manipulation Page, a limitation that is listed as an ACCEPTABLE limition is: "User May be unable to create light, being limited to manipulating only from already existing sources". Therefore, using a flashlight for light manip is acceptable since the person isnt required to emit the light themselves.



My Response: The user isn't even manipulating the light itself. The machine is the the thing that "manipulates" (if this is even considered manipulation) the light.

A supernatural-esque Light Manipulation was never even required in the first place, you don't need to have the character actually manipulate from their hands or etc as it's way more simpler than that.

Counter: The image on the Light Maniplulation page "has someone using something as an alternative to a flashlight."



My Response: Harry Potter pouring out his magic into a magic wand to emit light is very different from a person using a flashlight.

He's still using it as an alternative to a flashlight not in a combat applicable way, so I still don't get this part of the counter argument.

 

[Damage3245]

I can settle on characters getting limited abilities for tool-based abilities such as Limited Light Manipulation in this case. But I feel like it would then have to be extended to Limited Fire Manipulation in the case of flame-throwers for consistency.

 

[Tllmbrg]

I can settle on characters getting limited abilities for tool-based abilities such as Limited Light Manipulation in this case. But I feel like it would then have to be extended to Limited Fire Manipulation in the case of flame-throwers for consistency.

Aren't flamethrowers weapons though
Or what are bombs going to be indexed as limited explosion manipulation now?

Either way, I don't even think Limited/Minor is needed for the light manipulation personally, it just has to be something the character actively uses for their own benefit

 

[Jason_Courne]

Flashlights are devices specifically meant to create light, and in some cases, with the explicit purpose of stunning or blinding an opponent (although literally any flashlight will fulfil this purpose)

So it is combat applicable and at the bare minimum deserves to be indexed

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Imo flashlights should apply if they've shown themselves to be combat-applicable against opponents that aren't weak af against light. For example, an M84 stun grenade emits about 1M candelas (or approx. 1000 lumen) upon detonation, and this is plenty sufficient to blind anyone facing it within its effective range for a few seconds to a couple of minutes. Many tactical flashlights match or surpass 1k lumens, so should definitely qualify for limited light manip

 

[TheShape03]

Disagree.

The arguments I was going to give were already given by several other users, so to summarize: flashlights can be used as weapons, there are characters who use them as weapons, and creating light from a flashlight is useful for combat since it can counteract the darkness manipulation to a certain extent and could also be used to more easily find someone hiding in the darkness. Not to mention that some characters use the light of a flashlight to temporarily blind their opponents.

I think it should be considered "Minor Light Manipulation",

 

[Agnaa]

If a character simply has a flashlight on rare occasions (such as a cartoon character using one while going camping), it should not be indexed as an ability at all.

If a character has a flashlight as a regular and iconic part of their toolkit (such as Dead by Daylight survivors), it should be indexed as Minor Light Manipulation.

If a character has a flashlight, for any length of time, which interacts notably with their other supernatural properties (such as a character who can paralyze anything with a shadow, and once used an ordinary flashlight to facilitate that), it should be indexed as Minor Light Manipulation.

If a character has a flashlight, for any length of time, that has supernatural properties (such as sealing demons when other flashlights won't, or as being abnormally bright), it should be indexed as Light Manipulation.

EDIT: I also feel the need to point out that, regardless, this sort of thing should be indexed in standard/optional equipment. If there is some niche situation where it's needed in a fight, for a character made of darkness, one can simply point to that.