Let's settle this ToP vs DBSB debate once for all! Gogeta vs Jiren (7-3-0).

[Omegas03]

Goku and Vegeta with no other option to take Jiren out they decide to fuse because UI didn't want to activate.

Gogeta starts at SSJ, while Jiren at Base but both can ascend to their strongest states aka SSB for Gogeta or UBW for Jiren.

Both are Low 2-C

Fight is in WoV, win by any means. Gogeta has his Fusion Time Limit running.





To lose to a fusion would be to deny everything I've been until now!

Gogeta: 7 (CBslayeR, CyroTheMayo, TheBestBoi, Mister6ame6, AwkguyDB, WarriorofMite, GlaceonGamez471,

Jiren: 3 (Godzilla, XSOULOFCINDERX, Eminiteable

Inconclusive:

 

[Omegas03]

Bump.

 

[Omegas03]

Bumpy

 

[CBslayeR]

I'm gonna vote Gogeta, he'd probably go blue early on due to his already existing knowledge on Jiren and I think he places higher on the scaling chain. If the fusion runs out Goku and Vegeta should still be able to take down a worn down Jiren with SSBKK and SSBE since a tired base Goku, Frieza and 17 were able to.

 

[CBslayeR]

Also if Gogeta wins every version of Gogeta will have beaten a Jiren lol

 

[CryoTheMayo]

k math

SS = >40x Base

SS2 = >2x SS

SS3 = >2x SS2

SSG = >2x SS3

SSB = >40x SSG

UIS = >40x SSB

SS Gogeta is 40x Post-ToP SSB Goku. Post-UIS2 SSB Goku was > UIS1 Goku. That means Post-ToP SS Gogeta is at least as strong as UIS3 Goku, likely multiple times stronger than his minimum multiplier.

Base Jiren overwhelmed UIS3 Goku, but Base Gogeta is already stronger than Post-ToP SSB Goku and Goku likely grew stronger from UIS3 and UI + some time to train and rest after the ToP. So it seems overall fair to claim SS1 Gogeta = Base Jiren > UIS3 Goku.

The gap between LB Jiren and Base Jiren is at least 2x, but the actual increase is unquantifiable. Based on what I said above, LB Jiren would at most cap at SS3 Gogeta.

Oh but wait, FPSS Broly is only comparable to Beerus and people think LB Jiren is stronger than Beerus, hell some claim Base Jiren surpasses Beerus but these claims make zero sense unless LB Jiren is literally tens of thousands of times stronger than Base Jiren or UIS is just thousands upon thousands of times stronger than SSB which we can't even DEBATE.

Basically, all I can say conclusively is that SS Gogeta scales to Base Jiren's minimum power. LB and UI are unquantifiable, so let's limit this match to SS Gogeta vs Base Jiren.

Conclusion:

SSB Gogeta >> FPSS Broly >/= Beerus ? LB Jiren >?> Base Jiren = SS Gogeta

 

[Omegas03]

Oh but wait, FPSS Broly is only comparable to Beerus and people think LB Jiren is stronger than Beerus, hell some claim Base Jiren surpasses Beerus

Was that directed to me?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

It could be, if you identify as that very concept.

 

[Godzilla_King_of_the_Monsters_2019]

There is an overwhelming amount of evidence that Jiren, as is, is on par with if not stronger than any of the Gods of Destruction. The anime's guides, descriptions, statements made both directly about Jiren and his hints along with the manga (which is MUCH more blatant about it by the way) which would at least put normal Jiren in the ballpark of Broly's final peak of power, since that's likely Goku's reference as stronger than Beerus, as it's consistent with descriptions about his final form being above a God of Destruction, and no other form has that stated about them.

Gogeta tried to some degree against Broly, as described in the novelization, when he was charging up his Kamehameha but we also have to remember that Gogeta would be stronger than this one, to what degree is fairly hard to say, but it would be notable as Goku and Vegeta recieved at least two more zenkais, probably more, since they broke their limits against Jiren to begin with.

It should also be evident that MUI Goku beat Jiren as badly, if not worse, than Gogeta beat down on Broly, before Jiren broke his limits. Since those two should at least be comparable and the stomp was just as bad, this means that at the very least, Limit Breaker Jiren would be above Gogeta Blue since at first he overwhelmed MUI, with both emotion and adaptation leading to a better and better performance over time. In contrast, the more strain Gogeta is put under would make the fusion unstable and possibly split early.

Interestingly, despite many fusions appearing in the tournament and knowing the power of the potara first hand, Goku nor Vegeta even consider it an option. True, that could be their ego, but Jiren put them both in very dire emotional states, which could make the offer tempting. So if even Vegito might not have done it, I don't see Gogeta really doing anything.

And because I saw it earlier, I'll deal with the math part of it as well.

It's stated in Broly's novel that the Ikari form Broly initially displayed was equal to Super Saiyan God Vegeta, and that it was implied to be the strongest Saiyan they had ever encountered, meaning it's likely in reference to Kefla. That would indicate the Vegeta and Goku in the movie are 10-50x (whatever gap between God and Blue is accepted) stronger than the ones who fought against Jiren when they broke their limits, so this Gogeta would only be the equivalent of an SSG Gogeta from the Broly saga. Blue Goku in Broly is able to battle evenly with Ikari Broly if not have a slight advantage, and is able to deflect more blasts from Super Saiyan Broly than base form Gogeta, albeit, he put more effort into it so we could put them about equal. A suppressed Jiren was able to absolutely tank hits from Kaiokenx20 Blue and Blue Evolution at the same time, easily making that suppressed Jiren above Super Saiyan Gogeta. Doubling that might make it more fair, but then Jiren could simply power up as he had done against the two Saiyans. Once he did that, he was able to no-dif their blasts as well, and via Dragon Ball logic, that makes him twice as strong as before at least, so SS2 Gogeta isn't doing anything either. Gogeta would then likely use Super Saiyan God, as SS3 would kinda just be a waste of time, making him at least 8x stronger with an absurd lowball. At this point, Jiren would try harder like he did in the episodes with GoD Toppo. The mere clashes between the Saiyans and him made GoD Toppo defend himself, a fighter which we established is at least SS2 Gogeta level, so it's likely Jiren would still hold his ground. If not, Jiren would use his full power, mentioned many times to be far stronger than what they faced before. As he could hold an advantage over Omen 3 Goku in combat, a form which is at least 80x stronger than SSB given scaling from the first Goku-Jiren fight and the Kefla fight, God Gogeta would be in that same position if not worse. Omen Goku even fires a Kamehameha and Jiren takes no damage from it, making him twice as powerful again. Then Omen Goku adapts and begins to fight back, but Jiren simply powers up again, to the point his mere presence could take out Omen Goku before he charges up his best blast. Then comes out Blue, at the very least 10x to 50x stronger. Jiren would be in trouble here, as his full power would only be around 12-15x stronger than God Gogeta. But then Jiren breaks his limits, we saw that MUI Goku was able to beat Jiren with mere punches when Omen couldn't do anything with ki blasts, making those initial punches at least twice as strong as those prior blasts, 24-30, but then Jiren is able to punch away MUI Goku blasts when breaking his limits and even beats him in a beam clash with one hand, showing he got at least twice as strong as before. 48-60x stronger than Godgeta and decently above Blue Gogeta.

Jiren wins.

 

[Godzilla_King_of_the_Monsters_2019]

Sorry about the bible, but I wanted to cover all bases that mattered.

I'll just make a few more notes

There could be arguments for ToP Goku and Vegeta getting even stronger against Jiren as they kept fighting him and responded to full power Jiren with Blue, since statements from the peanut gallery indicate that their power together should be somehow even greater, like when Vegeta donated power to Goku when he was eliminated. Goku in the Broly film was also both shown and stated to be stronger than Vegeta, as in all versions of the ToP he fights Jiren longer, meaning he might have made Gogeta even stronger.

I also lowballed the differences in power on both sides, as I believe the god forms should have boosts in the dozens-hundreds of times above the normal forms, but that would just upscale both fighters.

I also left out the possibility of Kaioken Blue Gogeta because I doubt he'd risk defusing so quickly if there wasn't much time left. Though it would likely given him the advantage over Jiren.

Exra materials such as games for the most part support Jiren being a Blue fusion level threat, such as FighterZ having Vegito Blue stated equal to base Jiren and Heroes MUI Goku beating down SS3 Cumber, something two Vegitos struggled with.

Oh yeah and Goku stated MUI could've dealt with Hearts and that Gogeta was a maybe at best.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Let's not bring up SDBH because it's the worst scaling ever.

 

[Godzilla_King_of_the_Monsters_2019]

Oh but wait, FPSS Broly is only comparable to Beerus and people think LB Jiren is stronger than Beerus, hell some claim Base Jiren surpasses Beerus but these claims make zero sense unless LB Jiren is literally tens of thousands of times stronger than Base Jiren or UIS is just thousands upon thousands of times stronger than SSB which we can't even DEBATE.

Unless you think Goku is more credible on knowing a GoDs power than the angels and the GoDs themselves, yeah, Jiren's just blatantly that strong. Everyone said it. The series says it. Logic supports it as he told Toppo, after becoming a GoD that he was PATHETIC. Ultra Instinct also has similar lore, something GoDs can't really do and above them in power. And if you deny the dozens of things Jiren has, why the Hell would anyone take the one or two things Broly has as valid?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Yeah, Jiren FRA.

 

[Omegas03]

@Godzilla.

This is DBS Broly Gogeta. I just put that description as an little backstory tbh

 

[CryoTheMayo]

For starters, they only ever stated that Belmod couldn't defeat Jiren. Nothing about Jiren being unbeatable or Beerus being incapable of handling Jiren.

Secondly, Goku is a character in the actual universe that has fought both Beerus AND Jiren, has trained under an Angel for over two years and understands the level of power of someone who surpasses a 'God of Destruction'. His word is more credible than Belmod, a biased source who lost to Jiren.

Thirdly, Jiren has an entire arc hyping him up. Broly has a single film, where he is consistently referred to as the 'strongest' or 'superior to the level of a God of Destruction' and so on. Trying to argue 'validity' for a singular film, is absolutely ridiculous when nothing contradicts what that film is presenting and stating. Of course Jiren naturally has more statements over an entire arc.

Fourthly, Toppo is a newborn God of Destruction that was defeated by SSBE Vegeta. Are you claiming Vegeta is Jiren-tier and could defeat Beerus, when UIS3 Goku couldn't even handle Jiren's full power? There are clearly massive gaps in power depicted here.

Finally, there are sources that claim UI Goku is only 'comparable' to Beerus. Which contradicts the notion that Base Jiren > Beerus. There is also the part where Toriyama oversees the manga and considers it a-okay for Beerus to curbstomp the other GoDs and nearly kill 6 of them in one attack.

Relatively speaking, there isn't much actually going for claiming Base Jiren surpasses Beerus. Hell, Frieza even claims SS Broly alone is stronger than any other opponent he has faced and he fought Jiren in both the anime and the manga, and can sense Ki. So it's very unlikely that Base Jiren is much stronger than SS Broly.

Also, you hype up Ultra Instinct but...Goku is an utter joke compared to any of the Gods of Destruction. If any of them used Ultra Instinct, their power would logically multiply to the same degree as it did for Goku, making them relatively insanely powerful. Claiming UI Goku > Beerus based on 'lore' has no basis, because Goku is nowhere near Beerus-level w/o UI.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I can overall accept the idea that UI Goku and LB Jiren > Beerus, but I personally vehemently disagree with Base Jiren surpassing Beerus.

 

[Omegas03]

Bump

 

[TheBestBoi]

if SS2 kefla was slightly below UIO Goku and would have critically injured him, I might say Gogeta in blue form would definitely above MUI, idk the gap between UIO and SSB but its definitely more than 20x and even if we highball MUI to be 100x UI0 it'd still be lower than blue Gogeta

SSG=10x SS (I say 10 since Wrath broly a 10x multiplier was able to overpower SSG vegeta)

SSB=50x SSG

UIO=50x SSB

MUI=100x UIO or 5000x SSB

Let's say Base Gogeta is as powerful as SSB Goku then Gogeta blue would be 25000x above SSB Goku which would be above my hypothetical MUI multiplier, Gogeta has my vote

 

[Eminiteable]

Jiren FRA

 

[Mister6ame6]

Gogeta FRA

 

[AwkguyDB]

I am gonna give this to Gogeta FRA

 

[Godzilla_King_of_the_Monsters_2019]

@Godzilla.
This is DBS Broly Gogeta. I just put that description as an little backstory tbh

Well when you say it's Goku and Vegeta's last effort, that makes it sound like it's in the ToP. You know, where they fought him. Where UI activated.

 

[Godzilla_King_of_the_Monsters_2019]

Whis directly stated Belmod is stronger than Beerus. Beerus of course interjects, saying he only lost at arm wrestling, but now we're pitting Beeru's credibility, who is known to be a bit self-centered and lies to get his way, against Whis, who if anything is too honest. Aside from that, we see that the Gods of Destruction are, for the most part, relative as Champa and Beerus can beat the crap out of each other to the point they're bruised and bloody. Sidra's an outlier cause he's a bitch, like he's barely above pre-ToP Blue Goku at best cause Golden Frieza made him wet himself but Goku knocked him out.

Not true, Goku has proven himself to not be the best at calculating Beerus' power in the past. For instance, he and Vegeta were under the impression that when sleeping Beerus hit them, that he can't restrain himself and so that was his max power. So Goku has no clue what Beerus' full power is, only that it's vaguely below Jiren as that's what Whis told him, so Broly might be more comparable to Jiren than Beerus, but it's a little weird because he NEVER mentions Jiren in reference to Broly as a scaling device, when earlier they made it pretty clear that Ikari Broly would spank Kefla. That's also why Goku says he's "PROBABLY" stronger than Beerus. He doesn't know. Why would he know? He hasn't fought Beerus for real for over five years by this point (remember he and Vegeta entered the time chamber for 3 before the U6 tournament)

"Consistently stated as the 'strongest' and 'beyond a GoD'" Um, no? Broly's actual film says little about that. We get two indicators of Broly's power in the film. One his Ikari state is the strongest Saiyan they've met and his Legendary form is probably above Beerus' level. If you're referring to this guide then I'd argue it's wrong, because the guides also have Beerus state Omen 3 Goku is at least as strong as him should be pretty obvious why that's bad for Broly, mostly because of this scene and then this scene someone "probably stronger than Beerus" is losing pretty badly against full power Jiren. And then Jiren powers up more for his attack on Goku transitioning into MUI. This same Jiren who just beat down a Broly level fighter (both statements are kinda the same thing) then gets utterly humiliated by MUI Goku SO badly that he gets literal PTSD about when he family was killed. And after breaking his own limits, he's beating MUI Goku until the adaptation of MUI allows Goku to do better and better over time. So using that as a reference would mean Broly would kinda get bodied by Jiren, really bad too. Kinda like how Gogeta dealt with him.

Actually MUI Goku beating on Jiren is kinda the same scenario as Gogeta Blue vs Broly. Both fighters clearly had more in the tank but bullied the Hell out of GoD+ level fighters, only ever getting touched when they clashed fists with the other guy but otherwise just beating them into the dirt. So that's part of why I think MUI's up there with DBS Gogeta. They have practically the same feats.

Well of course not. Vegeta couldn't do it normally though to be fair. He had to get an anime emotions amp and then use the self-destruct move he used on Buu to knock out GoD Toppo, and even then it didn't happen immediately. However, Belmod, Shin and Beerus all kinda agree that he's in the ballpark of a God of Destruction, and yet Jiren is blatantly shown to be superior to him before he even shows his full power. Omen 3 Goku is also stated above Beerus and performed pretty well against Jiren, who we kinda have a lot of evidence being AT LEAST GoD level. Nothing really puts him beneath Beerus aside from like one thing in FighterZ.

I haven't seen sources that claim that. I'd like some if you have them. Anyway, the manga also has Belmod, who Jiren is blatantly stated stronger than, not require healing during the GoD battle royale. Beerus, Quitela, Champa and other GoDs were all borderline dying or knocked out, but Belmod was just fine. Also Broly being above Beerus is never said in the manga, because the movie was just kinda implied to have happened the same. But even then, Goku states in black and white that even after Broly, there's nothing they could do to Jiren in the Moro arc Goku deflects a compliment about his strength in reference to stronger people in the other universes. In the manga, Goku never fought Kefla. Gohan did. And Toppo only beat him because Goku let his guard down and he got kicked in the groin. So the only person that could be referring to is Jiren as he beat Perfect Blue Goku, made him attempt to use Kaioken, overwhelmed UIO Goku and fought well against MUI Goku. Should be noted Broly is not mentioned weaker, but it still shows that Broly and Jiren are two of the only people who can beat Goku and Vegeta as they are now.

I've never seen that statement and it's not in the movie where Frieza just says SS1 Broly has amazing battle power, so I'm going to presume that's the novel. Here's why that's pretty bad to use. The only time Frieza did anything to Jiren is when Jiren was pretty badly beaten by MUI Goku and according to the anime, even then Golden Frieza with 17's help was deemed worthless . Beforehand, Frieza was dealt with like a childgetting two-shot in the anime (also interesting note, Jiren apparently beat him so badly Frieza doesn't refer to himself pompously with the 'watashi' pronoun. Only other time that happened is on Namek when Frieza was chopped in half and tried to kill Goku with his last shot) and full health Golden Frieza was nothing special to Jire and this sums up their fight before 17 saves him.

So normal Jiren no-diffed Frieza and a tired Jiren is still too much. Super Saiyan Broly just kinda does nothing but wail on him. Also in that same novel, Broly was forced to dodge Frieza's hits or he'd get injured. Golden Frieza did absolutely nothing to normal Jiren. So base Jiren is above SS Broly without question. Especially since, if the movie took the anime into accound, x20 Kaioken Blue and Blue Evolution together would be at the very least as strong as Broly, and with them fighting him together, he'd kinda have no chance against them,

And the manga says in black and white words that Jiren is stronger than any of the 12 GoDs. The anime implies Jiren>Belmod>Beerus. The guides, including Jiren's biography on the Toei site, stated he's at least GoD level normally, etc. There's just way too much to dismiss.

Beerus in both anime and manga has a psuedo-Ultra Instinct, but Goku was able to fully attain it. And Omen alone made Beerus insanely jealous, maybe even scared. The gods of destruction also ALL stood up in response to Goku attaining MUI, something in lore they simpy cannot do. That's just the lore.There's also statements that it's blatantly above a GoD's power as well

Also there's a statement that by the end of the ToP/Broly era, Goku is close to the level of a GoD but it seems to have vamished.

 

[Godzilla_King_of_the_Monsters_2019]

if SS2 kefla was slightly below UIO Goku and would have critically injured him, I might say Gogeta in blue form would definitely above MUI, idk the gap between UIO and SSB but its definitely more than 20x and even if we highball MUI to be 100x UI0 it'd still be lower than blue Gogeta
SSG=10x SS (I say 10 since Wrath broly a 10x multiplier was able to overpower SSG vegeta)

SSB=50x SSG

UIO=50x SSB

MUI=100x UIO or 5000x SSB

Let's say Base Gogeta is as powerful as SSB Goku then Gogeta blue would be 25000x above SSB Goku which would be above my hypothetical MUI multiplier, Gogeta has my vote

That's a pretty bad lowball for Omen. Episode 110 made it pretty clear x20 Kaioken+the spirit bomb that was above that (so 40+x) wouldn't do anything to Jiren, but Omen Goku landed numerous hits on him even when he used enough power to push 40x Blue back with just his stare. Kefla as a super saiyan is stated that level, and with SS2 she's twice that so 80+x. Omen then proves to be without question superior since he beat her up with nerfed punches and his speed, which surpassed hers quite a bit. Kefla's enraged lasers, far surpassing her limits according to just about everyone there, actually make contact with Goku and don't really do anything but clip a bit of his hair. And this same enraged Kefla got one-shot by the Omen Kamehameha.

So Omen's at least 80x Blue. No lower. Then it just gets like 3x stronger in the final Jiren fight because of friendship or whatever.

 

[Omegas03]

bump.

 

[WarriorofMite]

Gogeta fra

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

Gogeta FRA

 

[TheBestBoi]

If omen is 80x SSB and if mastered is let's say 100x Omen then it'd still be lower than gogeta blue

 

[Omegas03]

Grace

 

[Godzilla_King_of_the_Monsters_2019]

If omen is 80x SSB and if mastered is let's say 100x Omen then it'd still be lower than gogeta blue

Not really Gogeta's math is SSBx50 for Super Saiyan. Times 10 for God. Then times 50 for Blue. 25,000 Jiren's math is at least SSBx80 for Omen. 3x for the Kamehameha. 2x for no-diffing it. 2x again for the amp Omen had. Then at least 3x for intial MUI, as he could've taken out Goku with his last blast in 129. For limit breaker, the boost is at least 4x for the full strength of MUI and 2x that for being able to beat its beams with half the effort. 23,040. Omen is also probably stronger in the last fight as it's stated everytime Goku used it he tapped into more power. And with initial Omen being above a 40x by massive amounts, second Omen being fairly above 80x, third Omen could be a 160x which would get Jiren a 46,080.

 

[Planck69]

Gogeta FRA.

 

[Omegas03]

Gogeta won.

despite my profile pic, I deeply wanted Jiren to win so he beat all odds lmao

 

[Ovrhide]

Gogeta has an insane multiplier backing him up, and not just a multiplier, but also the fact that Goku is now unquantifiably stronger than he was in the ToP.


At bare minimum, Blue Gogeta is already 40,000x stronger than Goku in the movie, and i say minimum cause i lowballed the unknown god multiplier to just a mere 2x.


Ui is strong no doubt, but is enough to to superscede an at least 40,000x multiplier? its really all in just how strong UI is. And as a side note, im starting to doubt that Jiren and Goku are much more power than beerus at all. seems to me beerus is going to be kept close to that level as to not be left behind.


i vote for Gogeta.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Not true, Goku has proven himself to not be the best at calculating Beerus' power in the past.

If this is such a crucial point why the **** is it used to downplay Broly? Since Goku is unreliable the only thing we can lean on is statements and guides and almost all of them say that Broly is the strongest enemy to date making him > Jiren.

Gogeta FRA.

 

[Ovrhide]

Not true, Goku has proven himself to not be the best at calculating Beerus' power in the past.
If this is such a crucial point why the **** is it used to downplay Broly? Since Goku is unreliable the only thing we can lean on is statements and guides and almost all of them say that Broly is the strongest enemy to date making him > Jiren.

Gogeta FRA.

you have a point. Goku not being able to calculate Beerus in power in the past isnt a downplay for broly, at all. Tho we are talking about a movie antagonist that takes place after the ToP, the tournament of power housing a foe stronger than his god. if anything, gokus statement now holds more water than it ever did before.

 

[Godzilla_King_of_the_Monsters_2019]

Not true, Goku has proven himself to not be the best at calculating Beerus' power in the past.
If this is such a crucial point why the **** is it used to downplay Broly? Since Goku is unreliable the only thing we can lean on is statements and guides and almost all of them say that Broly is the strongest enemy to date making him > Jiren.

Gogeta FRA.

Literally only one of them says that. That's an idiotic point since only one says that, and even that one questions whether Broly's power is above a GoDs. So either GoDs>Jiren (which is wrong) or that one's wrong.

At absolute best Broly's semi-relative to normal Jiren. That's being incredibly generous. He has nothing in the movie itself to support that, Jiren's never compared to him. Yet Kefla was. Someone who is MUCH weaker than Jiren.

 

[Godzilla_King_of_the_Monsters_2019]

you have a point. Goku not being able to calculate Beerus in power in the past isnt a downplay for broly, at all. Tho we are talking about a movie antagonist that takes place after the ToP, the tournament of power housing a foe stronger than his god. if anything, gokus statement now holds more water than it ever did before.

It was never being used that way. It's more-so pointing out that if Jiren's much more consistent and prevalent lore is wrong, why the **** is Goku's one-off statement right?

 

[ShivaShakti]

So I see some multipiers being thrown around here... Isn't SSJ x50?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

A little bit late to the party, but I'll go with Gogeta FRA.

The fact that Gogeta ONLY in base is at least relative if not outright stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta post-ToP speaks volumes imo.

Post UIO3-SSB Goku with KKx20 is already somewhat relative to a held back Jiren. Now you have Gogeta who's on that level in just his base form, and can stack a multiplier of at least 40,000 Bare minimum. Yeah I don't see how ToP Jiren can survive against that.

 

[Ovrhide]

im sure we are all gonna have a laugh once Jiren is proven to either not be stronger than beerus, or just be at his level. we are going to laugh because we will look back at the show and go "Oh, i guess he was jst stronger than his god", and forget that it is beerus who is just a walking retcon machine.

as much as i was a supporter of Jiren being that much stronger than beerus, the show clearly doesnt seem to be pointing in that direction at all.

Broly and Jiren might as well be comparable in power as a whole. Everything points at beerus and broly being comparable, while we dont have much to say how much stronger jiren is than beerus, if any at all. thats how vauge the anime was in general. the best, and the best comparison we got to scaling beerus was a magazine where beerus stating UI Goku might be stronger than him. Toriyama can easily retcon beerus to be the strongest god by far.