Law of Identity Nigh-omniscience

[QuasiYuri]

Could someone tell me in which volume and chapter the mention of The Law of Identity?

The quote here does not say when it is said.

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know. Sorry. The quote in question is what makes some people uncertain about if the character should be High 1-A instead.

 

[Aeyu]

I for one think that there is a valid case for downgrading the character, as any limitation, even an abstract or metaphysical one, means that there is something known that a character cannot do, thus preventing them from being a 0 on that alone (Also why Azzy in DB might get downgraded)

 

[Antvasima]

I am uncertain as well, and I remember that DarkLK and A6colute also thought that the Law of Identity should be tier High 1-A because of this.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I'm not an expert in the verse by any means, but if Law of Identity truly is limited, being tier 0 is unacceptable.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it claims to have limitations in its omniscience, but is still at the absolute top of all hierarchies and narratives.

 

[Antvasima]

Matthew argued for that it should be tier 0, but I am very uncertain, especially as DarkLK disagrees.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I'm sorry if I am unqualified to help here, but considering the verse has only two pages, is there any other proof for outerversal outside of the vague justifications on the profiles?

 

[Aeyu]

If it really is going to be at that range, maybe At least High 1-A would work?

I still support a straight High 1-A rating, however. Perhaps I can talk to him about it?

And @Yobobojojo, I agree.

 

[Antvasima]

I would appreciate if you ask Matthew to comment here.

 

[Aeyu]

I've asked him (though not on his profile)

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Venom Elite Is listed under knowledgeable members , so would it be helpful to message them about the profiles?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

And considering the deletion of the Golachov Verse, along with the possibility of DB Azahoth's downgrade, it may be necessary to either revise or place more safeguards on Tier 0

 

[Aeyu]

I think it's fine as it is. If anything, High 1-A would need to be defined more, but I don't really think the system's parameters for the two are that bad. 0 is just above anything known in the mythos of the verse (beyond Outerversal to an indeterminate degree) with no known caveats or limitations. I think that's suitable enough.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

What happened to the Golachov verse?

 

[Aeyu]

It got deleted due to lack of description in the character profiles as well as poorly handled statistics, having no pictures, and containing flimsy ratings which were never disputed or discussed.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Fair enough

Though I'll miss the Undoubtedly First. I liked its art...

Anyway, I'm derailing.

On topic, I think that if the LoI is incapable of willing itself into having the knowledge it is missing, then it isn't Tier 0.

 

[Antvasima]

I will ask DarkLK for input here as well.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I know this isn't the best place for this, but this discussion does have to do with Tier 0s.

Honestly I think The Writer breaks WAY too far into Reality - Fiction Interaction territory to be a legit Tier 0, but that is just my opinion.

 

[Aeyu]

Maybe. Do they have any known legitimate limitations within the context of DC, though?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I have messaged VenomElite, as they are the only Knowledgeable member for said verse.

On a related note, why is The Law of Identity tier 0 for being superior to a tier 1-A who's justification is only ruling atop a infinitely layered world?

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I am pretty sure it is just a massive NLF author avatar myself. But back to the Law of Identity.

If it can't gain all knowledge, even if it wanted to, it ain't Tier 0.

 

[KingPin0422]

Maybe. Do they have any known legitimate limitations within the context of DC, though?

Well, this could just be a discrepancy on their page, but they do not seem to have any sort of omniscience or omnipresence.

Back on topic, though. Yeah, I thought it was weird that a Tier 0 would not have full omniscience.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I have messaged VenomElite, as they are the only Knowledgeable member for said verse.

On a related note, why is The Law of Identity tier 0 for being superior to a tier 1-A who's justification is only ruling above a infinitely layered world?

This is actually a really good point. It seems like they should be High 1-B, not 1-A. Also Akuto Sai is High 1-A for... becoming the Law of Identity? Wouldn't that just make him The Law of Identity, not a separate entity?

 

[Antvasima]

The Law of Identity is at the top of all narrative hierarchies, and as such seems to work in a similar manner to The Creator (Umineko no Naku Koro ni), but unlike the latter character, it has a single self-stated limitation.

I am also uncertain about The Writer, but after Matthew argued for it, we made an exception, since DC Comics has the concept so strongly ingrained into its fundamental structure.

 

[Aeyu]

@Assalt

Well, if that is agreed upon, perhaps it could be Unknown instead of Tier 0? I'm not too sure, however.

And I agree. Unless there is a blatant statement which describes them being capable of knowing all things, then it cannot possibly be a tier 0 entity due to having a known limitation, even if it is unchallenged in the verse. You do not by any means require a tier 0 to have High 1-A characters.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

@Waffle

That's giving benefit of the doubt and assuming that layer=dimension

 

[Aeyu]

I agree with Yobobojojo. Additionally, transcending an infinite number of dimensions even an infinite or beyond infinite number of times over does not necessitate a 1-A rating unless they are explicitly unbound by its concepts.

 

[LordAizenSama]

If it is restricted in any way it is not tier 0 no ifs or buts about it whatsoever. Anything else would be personal bias.

 

[Antvasima]

We are not going to downgrade the Law of Identity to High 1-B, but possibly to High 1-A.

 

[Aeyu]

I'm not necessarily suggesting the LoI be downgraded to High 1-B, but the other character which Yobo stated is above infinite dimensions.

 

[Antvasima]

Like with Umineko, the difference between reality and fiction for each layer is unfathomably greater than that of mere dimensions, and the LOI is at the top of ALL of them, similarly to The Creator.

 

[Aeyu]

And that is explictly stated?

 

[Antvasima]

As far as I have had it explained to me, yes.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Even if each "layer" is infinitely above a "mere dimension," it is still in High 1-B. Unless we now treat uncountable infinity dimensions as 1-A now, which I am pretty sure we don't, I don't see how this series breaks into 1-A.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I think this discussion is more necessary for her compatriot than anything

 

[Aeyu]

Well, whoever made these pages should clarify a bit more in this thread, at least. I fully support LoI being re-downgraded to High 1-A, but I am unsure about the other thing.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I have messaged a Knowledgeable Member about this. As it stands, Akuto merely is infinitely layered, nothing more

 

[Antvasima]

Many of those fictional layers would naturally contain beyond-dimensional realms and structures. Again, the Creator and the LOI are presented as beyond all ascending ladders of narratives, fictions, and realities.

The ACF wiki rates them as tier 0 and High 1-A respectively, and they are far more informed about how the tiering system works than we are.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Looks like The Writer has varying intelligence as well.