Law of Identity Nigh-omniscience

[Antvasima]

The Writer is a stand-in for the DC Comics writers, all of whom have limited human intelligence.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Just because another site rate them as such doesn't mean we automatically follow suit if there is a problem with it. That said, if the layers really had beyond-D realms then they would be into 1-A. However the current description sounds like High 1-B.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Outerverse level (He has created every story that can be described. These include stories with people like Akuto himself that can create stories, and as such form an infinite hierarchy.)

As it stands, I am fine with High 1-A LoI, but Akuto's rating may not stay with that explanation

 

[Assaltwaffle]

The Writer is a stand-in for the DC Comics writers, all of whom have limited human intelligence.

Then not only is it an incredibly egregious reality-fiction interaction, it isn't tier 0. If it really is the ultra-powerful author avatar of the writer of DC, none of the authors know literally everything about DC, and even are limited to, like you said, HUMAN INTELLIGENCE.

No tier 0 could possibly have limited intelligence, certainly not an average human's...

 

[Aeyu]

We don't use ACF's tiering system, though, as has been illustrated numerous times by yourself and other admins.

Also, isn't it assumption that they are beyond dimensions, then? Are they directly stated to be above concepts?

I'm gonna have to agree with Assaltwaffle for now on this one.

 

[Antvasima]

I am firmly against downgrading a character that is at the very top of all fiction to High 1-B based on our own more limited knowledge about the franchise. I have very high faith in DarkLK's and the ACF wiki staff's sense of judgement regarding these matters.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

@Waffle

The Writer has no importance to this topic, please do not derail

 

[Antvasima]

Again, this would be a beyond infinite ladder of ascending fictions within fictions within fictions, many of which would contain beyond-dimensional realms, that are still fiction to the reality above that, and so onwards, and the LOI and the Creator are at the absolute top of all of it. If that does not qualify for tier 0 and High 1-A, I don't know what does.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Yobobojojo

Well he is currently sharing the same boat as LoI, so I think he is relevant (ignoring any reality-fiction he still shouldn't be tier 0).

 

[Aeyu]

But what defines it as that? Wouldn't you normally argue that "all fiction," does not necessitate a character being beyond dimensions? An example is Ga and the Crimson King (Dark Tower), who are directly argued by Stephen King to possess all possible fictional continuities and realities within the structure of their beings, as well as all possibilities that can be had However, these characters are At least High 1-B and At least High 1-B, possibly 1-A respectively, as while they created an infinitely-infinitely layered series of hierarchies and realities within each other, it is unknown if they directly transcend the notion/concept of dimensions. Additionally, with respect to the ACF wiki, DarkLK, and with legitimately no offense as well, would you not say our wiki has become more popular and has more detailed reasonings for statistics at this point?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

@Waffle

I'd rather have a discussion like this at another time

Same goes for The Creator

 

[Antvasima]

@Aeyu

We mostly do use the ACF wiki's conceptual system for higher tiers. We have simply made minor modifications, and DarkLK, who created the system, thinks that the Creator and LOI are tier 0 and High 1-A respectively. We are definitely not going to downgrade them below those rankings.

@Assaltwaffle

I am also uncertain about including a page for The Writer, but you will have to argue with Matthew about it.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Ignoring the High 1B and the high 1A arguments It seems everyone agrees tier 0 is wrong

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Ant

Wait, if he thinks LoI is High 1-A, how did it get to Tier 0 in the first place? Also I don't see how The Creator got drawn into this, it has the most solid justification for Tier 0 out of anyone in there.

 

[Antvasima]

@Aeyu

Our wiki is more popular, due to being in English, but theirs has far more indepth analyses and descriptions. Compared to their staff, we mostly have no idea what we are doing in regards to the deeper philosophy behind the highest tiers.

The Dark Tower does not have beyond infinitely ascending hierarchies of narrative fictions within fictions within fictions, just greater degrees of infinite scale, which is meaningless to characters such as TLOI and The Creator.

 

[Aeyu]

@Assalt >Writer has the most solid justification

Azzy (Cthulhu Mythos) would like to have a word with you...

@Ant

That being said, as I stated I mean/meant no disrespect to DarkLK or those guys. But if that's the case, then I strongly support DarkLK being present in this thread to clear up issues.

(Edit: I can pull up a thing (blogpost) that basically states that Gan contains all possible fiction and reality that could ever exist. I don't mean this as spite in any way.)

 

[Yobo_Blue]

The Creator should be left out of this, since he and LoI are not even close to the same level

 

[Antvasima]

@Assaltwaffle

As far as I understand, the LOI is very similar concept to The Creator, with the exception that the latter is essentially a version of Nirvana, and that the LOI claims to have a limitation in its omniscience.

 

[Antvasima]

@Assaltwaffle

It gained a tier 0 because Matthew is very good at arguing, but I am very uncertain about the ranking.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Ant

Well apparently we have two limited characters (looking more like 4 right now but whatever) in Tier 0 due to "arguing." It is time for logic and hard-and-fast rules to come back. If LoI's verse truly does have dimensionless space and LoI completely transcends it, save one limitation, I am fine with High 1-A.

 

[Antvasima]

@Assaltwaffle

Okay. Thank you for being reasonable. I have asked both DarkLK and Matthew to comment here. Perhaps we should postpone this discussion in the meantime.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

If The Creator infinitely transcends LoI, merely being comparable in concept can be argued equally for MoP to equal Yog-so goth, since they are both infinity in the one. The Creator's existence is infinitely above LoI in every sense of the word, meaning conceptually no comparison can be drawn.

 

[Aeyu]

@Ant

This is the blogpost that describes what I mean.

Additionally, there is this:

Gan exists beyond everything and is the author of all there is:

"The Turtle spoke in Bill's head, and Bill understood somehow that there was yet Another, and that Final Other dwelt in a void beyond this one. This Final Other was, perhaps, the creator of the Turtle, which only watched, and It, which only ate. This Other was a force beyond the universe, a power beyond all other power, the author of all there was."

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Ant

I don't intend not the be reasonable, quite the opposite. Maybe we should clarify in their pages that the layers that build the reality contain dimensionless space? Without that info someone else may have the same thought of High 1-B that I did.

 

[Antvasima]

@Aeyu

Okay.

@Assaltwaffle

Possibly, yes. I hope that DarkLK will be willing to help out with the definition.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Wait, if said layers each have dimensionless space AND are infinitely ascending, yet 0 dimensional beings in 1 layer are far above the beyond dimensions of a lower realm, that sounds like it would go against the system, no?

I'm not trying to be rude, it just sounds a bit.. off

 

[Antvasima]

@Yobobojojo

No, the system of ascending ladders of narrative are the foundation of how Umineko works, as far as I have understood.

I think that our Composite Hierarchies page goes into this concept a bit.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I have read it, but within the context of Ichiban I haven't seen something that solidifies that. I will wait, however.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

If LOI is getting downgraded due to lacking Omniscience, the Writer should also get downgraded due to lacking Omniscience.

 

[MangaxAnimeLover]

If LOI is getting downgraded due to lacking Omniscience, the Writer should also get downgraded due to lacking Omniscience.

But doesn't he transcend the primal monitor tho?

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

But he's not Omniscient. The Overvoid isn't Omniscient, either. They would both be High 1-A, though, if he gets a downgrade.

Inb4 Animal Man becomes a 0.

 

[Aeyu]

If what Hadou is saying is true, both would just be High 1-A. High 1-A's can be above other High 1-A's.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

If LOI is getting downgraded due to lacking Omniscience, the Writer should also get downgraded due to lacking Omniscience.

If memory serves, intelligence is a non factor for 0 since they infinitely transcend it and is a malleable concept, whereas The LoI cannot make herself omniscient, unlike the rest of the tier, hence the downgrade

 

[MangaxAnimeLover]

If what Hadou is saying is true, both would just be High 1-A. High 1-A's can be above other High 1-A's.

No the staff said all high 1-A's are equal to each other.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

That is what I was thinking. If a 0 doesn't have Omniscience listed, and they have not demonstrated that they cannot just become Omniscient, I didn't see it as a problem. Mainly because all knowledge exists within them, all knowledge is a part of them, they transcend the concept of knowledge, that sort of thing. But if it is enough to downgrade them, I was just pointing out that the Writer is also not Omniscient.

 

[Aeyu]

@Manga

I can show you explicit instances where this has been stated to not be the case.

It's less that they're "equal," as a 0 in one verse could be above one in another potentially, and more that said characters cannot be used due to us not being able to properly gauge power levels at that point and thus all fights would end up inconclusive.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

That is what I was thinking. If a 0 doesn't have Omniscience listed, and they have not demonstrated that they cannot just become Omniscient, I didn't see it as a problem. Mainly because all knowledge exists within them, all knowledge is a part of them, they transcend the concept of knowledge, that sort of thing. But if it is enough to downgrade them, I was just pointing out that the Writer is also not Omniscient.

The Writer only has varied since what we see and know of it is scattered and not once indicative of its true essence. It very well could be High 1-A, but there is no evidence for it

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Yobobojojo

Your memory doesn't serve, unfortunately.

Tier 0s are completely limitless. If they have literally any limitation, no matter how small, they are no Tier 0.

 

[MangaxAnimeLover]

But then again even a monkey who was tier 0 died in DC.

So I pretty much agree with you.