The Computer Gods upgrade (Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou) (Staff Only version)

[Antvasima]

I will remind DontTalk.

 

[AKUTO123]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

I will remind him again.

 

[Larssx]

Eşedüennnahh Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT

We need your help here.

 

[Larssx]

I think DT can comment now if the busy 2 weeks that he mentioned months ago are over, lol.
Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

Still waiting for Ultimas response. Also, DTs input is needed. Rest, idk.

I think DT can comment now if the busy 2 weeks that he mentioned months ago are over.

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT

Your help is required here.

 

[AKUTO123]

Maybe some staff want to respond op apart from Ultıma and DT . That is would be good

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @PrinceofPein @Everything12 @Planck69 @Ovy7 @TheUnshakableOne @Rakih_Elyan @IdiosyncraticLawyer @Kerwin0831 @RatherClueless

Would you be willing to help evaluate this please?

 

[PrinceofPein]

I disagree with using a single tweet that is shaky for such upgrade, seeing as wog from social media is supposed to be supporting evidences or clarification, but this revision has it as the main one, I have to disgaree.

 

[StorytellingDemonKing]

I disagree with using a single tweet that is shaky for such upgrade, seeing as wog from social media is supposed to be supporting evidences or clarification, but this revision has it as the main one, I have to disgaree.

Everything the author has said aligns with the light novel. He's more so confirming what's already written instead of creating new stuff.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Everything the author has said aligns with the light novel. He's more so confirming what's already written instead of creating new stuff.

Cardinals were never mentioned in the LN, so he is not confirming it.

 

[StorytellingDemonKing]

Cardinals were never mentioned in the LN, so he is not confirming it.

Now you're just straight up lying. The translations are in the blog and explained how they work.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Now you're just straight up lying. The translations are in the blog and explained how they work.

Again I will say again. There were no mentions of cardinal in the series, drop the mention and volume chapter of it here and lets see. it was density to which you used the argument that wog said we can change the density to cardinal, and that brings the entire statement into question since;
The fact that he said his own infinity is not about number sequence but cardinals are literally number sequence, should throw that statement out of the window in regards to our tiering system.

 

[StorytellingDemonKing]

Again I will say again. There were no mentions of cardinal in the series, drop the mention and volume chapter of it here and lets see.

So, you will just dug in your heals instead of even reading anything?

Here is the same bolded sentences in Japanese:

数列のような無限ではないよ。無限に濃度の濃い無限についてだ —Demon King Daimaou Volume 5 Chapter 3

The interesting part of it is the kanji 濃度 because the author stated he deliberately confused it's meaning with the word "density", even though it's meant to be interpreted as "cardinality".

So, what is the sentences meaning if we account for this? Well, I asked on r/translator and got an answer:

“

It's about infinity with infinitely dense cardinality [with infinite cardinal numbers].

„

And in case anyone is wondering about the validity of this translation, I asked Executor N0 and he confirmed the translation is valid.

That is straight from the blog. You would see it if you actually even opened up instead of making up stuff.

it was density to which you used the argument that wog said we can change the density to cardinal, and that brings the entire statement into question since;
The fact that he said his own infinity is not about number sequence but cardinals are literally number sequence, should throw that statement out of the window in regards to our tiering system.

There is no "changing" anything when the intent of cardinality has been written since the beginning. And every time he has talked about The Computer Gods and set theory, it's always the same. He has not changed his stance and said "Yeah it's actually about density". So can you just drop this repetitive point already? It's been addressed countless times by now.

Also, the problem with your argument in the latter half is that it's already addressed, too. I've already presented my interpretation and explained it. You need to prove why this is more effective than what I've already explained, rather than just circling back to beginning:

I think what he meant is that the cardinals are generally meant to be large ones aka alephs. That's why it says "infinitely dense cardinals" even though previously it said something along the lines of not just numerical numbers.

This hasn't been answered. And I do not need to make things up for this explanation the way you do with stuff like "no, it doesn't say cardinality even though the translations disagree".

 

[Larssx]

Again I will say again. There were no mentions of cardinal in the series, drop the mention and volume chapter of it here and lets see. it was density to which you used the argument that wog said we can change the density to cardinal, and that brings the entire statement into question since;
The fact that he said his own infinity is not about number sequence but cardinals are literally number sequence, should throw that statement out of the window in regards to our tiering system.

"It's not about infinity like a number sequence." in the first sentence here, the author is talking about something simple, that is, if we say x in our first sentence, this is not x, then it talks about something bigger.
It's about infinity with infinitely dense cardinality
If we say y in this sentence, we get the following result
Like I'm not talking about x. I'm talking about y, which is much bigger.
Well, the meanings of the sentences, the part that the author mentions at first is clearly Aleph Null, but after he says that he does not mention it, and in the sentence he uses in the following sentence, he tries to explain Aleph Omega.
Because if we add ω next to the Aleph sign, we can reach infinities with infinitely dense cardinality in the second sentence.
in short, what the author is trying to say in the 2nd sentence is that n is infinite for Aleph-n, and this is Aleph ω.

 

[AKUTO123]

Pain seems to have misunderstood a lot of things. First of all, the reason why we use the author's words is that they can be translated as 2 different sentences. While one meaning of the sentence is infinite dense infinity, the other meaning is infinite cardinal infinity. There is no way to know which meaning is correct without consulting the author. the words of the author show us that it is about the cardinals. I have already put forward 3 meanings regarding what the author means by the second topic, the phrase "not infinity in a number sequence".

 

[StorytellingDemonKing]

Bump just remembered this exist

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT

What do you think about this?

 

[AKUTO123]

Bump again ...

 

[Antvasima]

I have reminded DontTalk about this thread.

 

[AKUTO123]

B

 

[Antvasima]

I will remind him again.

 

[Antvasima]

I guess one of the first things to decide is to which degree we wish to consider the twitter stuff. Hope some staff members are willing to weigh in on that.

It is inevitably important at multiple points IMO.

That starts with the translation.
Then whether or not infinitely many cardinals or infinite cardinals are meant.
Then whether the gods thinking about it relates to their creations in some way.
And perhaps even whether the "all possible stories" logic can in some way be applied to the cardinal statement otherwise.

I think many of those points would be rather difficult to push if we decide to not put weigh into the twitter stuff. (and if we do one still has to debate them)

What do the rest of you think about this?

 

[DontTalkDT]

I will just briefly say that I really don't have much to contribute to this at its current point. I share many of the doubts brought up and am overall rather uncertain regarding the entire topic.
Personally, I think I'm at least not on board with the highest of interpretation such as Computer Gods being above all cardinals, but... yeah, as said, even outside of that I can overall say that I am uncertain about the evidence.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the reply.

It seems like this thread has been rejected then.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Okay. Thank you for the reply.

It seems like this thread has been rejected then.

Close it, then.

 

[StorytellingDemonKing]

I will just briefly say that I really don't have much to contribute to this at its current point. I share many of the doubts brought up and am overall rather uncertain regarding the entire topic.
Personally, I think I'm at least not on board with the highest of interpretation such as Computer Gods being above all cardinals, but... yeah, as said, even outside of that I can overall say that I am uncertain about the evidence.

I was thinking about the highest interpretation being iffy as well. Maybe we could say the cardinals could scale to High 1-B, and them being created as mere thought, or likely in VPS, the Computer Gods could be Low 1-A or 1-A. Personally I don't think we should dismiss it completely. This would obviously upscale The Afterlife to baseline High 1-A and TLOI would be baseline Boundless.

Okay. Thank you for the reply.

It seems like this thread has been rejected then.

Close it, then.

Let's not rush it without first discussing it with others, especially those who made the thread. They haven't gotten the chance to respond.

 

[Larssx]

I generally disagree with DT.
What matters here is what the author meant and the translation already confirms it.

"It's not about infinity like a number sequence." in the first sentence here, the author is talking about something simple, that is, if we say x in our first sentence, this is not x, then it talks about something bigger.
It's about infinity with infinitely dense cardinality
If we say y in this sentence, we get the following result
Like I'm not talking about x. I'm talking about y, which is much bigger.
Well, the meanings of the sentences, the part that the author mentions at first is clearly Aleph Null, but after he says that he does not mention it, and in the sentence he uses in the following sentence, he tries to explain Aleph Omega.
Because if we add ω next to the Aleph sign, we can reach infinities with infinitely dense cardinality in the second sentence.
in short, what the author is trying to say in the 2nd sentence is that n is infinite for Aleph-n, and this is Aleph-ω.

I have already written here what the author meant, so I will not repeat myself again.

 

[AKUTO123]

I think that both DT and Ultima have not presented a concrete and strong rejection argument so far. Ultima said that he thought the sentence "not infinity in a sequence of numbers" was far from cardinality or mathematics and contradicted it. I presented the meanings and options that that sentence could have other than that meaning, and Ultima has not commented since then. DT, on the other hand, only discussed it with us in the discussion in DC, but there is no answer here and I repeat again, "these articles are not High 1A because of this reason" or any similar counter argument has not been presented so far. In general, there was no serious discussion on CRT, except for 2 or 3 vague and weak comments. I think closing a CRT without even discussing it is against the purpose of the wiki. DT or Ultima may not accept it, but they must show solid reasons for not accepting it. There are 2 things they need to refute first 1. The word "infinite cardinal infinity" written in the novel, which is the original source, does not mean infinite cardinals. Secondly, the author's literal use of cardinality in the part of the novel and the statement "I started from the infinity of set theory" must be refuted. It shouldn't be possible for CRT to shut down just because I don't feel like it's right.

 

[Quintessence_PE]

I don't see a problem in using these tweets because it is a simple translation explanation that is directly related to the novel and has no contradictions. The right translation and the writer explanation show that these tweets can be used.
It seems pretty clear that the pc gods can be at least 1a.

 

[AKUTO123]

The argument is actually very simple. There is a phrase in the 1st novel "infinite cardinal infinity" DT believes that it describes the infinity of a cardinal where there are not an infinite number of cardinals. 2.Ultima thinks that the statement "not infinity in a number sequence" in the previous sentence is an expression that shows that it is not mathematical. On the other hand, he may have meant that it was mathematical and meant plural, not 1, or he might have wanted to explain that wasn't Aleph null, I said it would be wrong to just say that it is not mathematical and cut to the chase. This is the total discussion on CRT that has been going on for 3 months, and there is no response regarding any other issue. If DT is very hesitant, we can probably make 1A High 1A PC gods. In my opinion, since the author says "I thought the seth theorem was infinite while writing here", it should be High 1A directly, but if DT has reservations such as 1A might be the quality of the cardinal, 1A /probably High 1A is probably a good option as well. could be the solution.

 

[AKUTO123]

Let me write my last article today. In short, with the lowest interpretation, PC gods are 1A, with a normal interpretation, High 1A. Even if we consider the expressions we have as DT does, PC gods would be 1A.That's why I don't think this is a rejected issue, let's close it, even though all mods are against High 1A, the lowest comment is 1A.

 

[DontTalkDT]

1. The word "infinite cardinal infinity" written in the novel, which is the original source, does not mean infinite cardinals.

I can neither confirm or deny that, as I can't speak japanese. Nor can I say if that interpretation is an option or the only possible one.
Thing is, if I'm uncertain about something, I tend to not say I agree. Just that I don't know.

Secondly, the author's literal use of cardinality in the part of the novel and the statement "I started from the infinity of set theory" must be refuted. It shouldn't be possible for CRT to shut down just because I don't feel like it's right.

Well, this starts at the question if we even want to give the twitter stuff of the author any weight. Which is one of the things I wanted other staff's opinion on.
Then there is the question how much we assume the author knows about set theory.

And then there is the question whether we accept the computer god's thinking as relevant to their tier. Like, them being able to think about cardinals is nice, but I'm sceptical about translating that to their thought worlds having cardinal many anything in a tiering relevant fashion. So that's something I likewise would want other staff to have a look at.

 

[StorytellingDemonKing]

I can neither confirm or deny that, as I can't speak japanese. Nor can I say if that interpretation is an option or the only possible one.
Thing is, if I'm uncertain about something, I tend to not say I agree. Just that I don't know.

So, are you saying you're neutral ATM?

Well, this starts at the question if we even want to give the twitter stuff of the author any weight. Which is one of the things I wanted other staff's opinion on.

Well, as far as we are concerned the author has been consistent with the fact that he's talking about set theory when it comes to the computer gods.

Then there is the question how much we assume the author knows about set theory.

I think a better question is if what the author has said can be applied to our tiering system. IMO just because an author knows a lot of set theory doesnt mean they have written it in an applicable way so that his characters would be tier 1 here, and just because the author has little to no understanding of set theory doesnt mean we should ignore what is written and can make the characters more fairly rated. Especially since the intent is made clear to us.

And then there is the question whether we accept the computer god's thinking as relevant to their tier. Like, them being able to think about cardinals is nice, but I'm sceptical about translating that to their thought worlds having cardinal many anything in a tiering relevant fashion. So that's something I likewise would want other staff to have a look at.

This is actually adressed in "how it should be applied" section of the sandbox in the OP. We have explained why set theory should be applied to their universes.

 

[Antvasima]

I can neither confirm or deny that, as I can't speak japanese. Nor can I say if that interpretation is an option or the only possible one.
Thing is, if I'm uncertain about something, I tend to not say I agree. Just that I don't know.

You can ask Agnaa and our translation helpers to help you out with translations if you wish.

 

[Quintessence_PE]

You can ask Agnaa and our translation helpers to help you out with translations if you wish.

I can neither confirm or deny that, as I can't speak japanese. Nor can I say if that interpretation is an option or the only possible one.
Thing is, if I'm uncertain about something, I tend to not say I agree. Just that I don't know.

As far as I know, the person who is responsible for these translations is the Executor, and I believe we can trust his translation. If that's not sufficient on its own, then we should seek the opinions of others.

 

[Antvasima]

Executor is reliable as far as I am aware.

 

[AKUTO123]

I don't quite understand why DT suggested the translation. It is really a meaningless behavior for him to constantly put forward this translation even though we have already confirmed to him that this translation is correct, both from the executor, other translators and directly from the writings written by the Japanese, and we have shown this to him. As for using an author, I think the author's writings are quite clear and answer the question "What is written in this novel?" For this reason, it should not be a problem to use it here. Also, I think there is no possibility that DT does not know, but from the thoughts of the PC gods, universes based on those thoughts arise. If their thoughts include cardinals, there will be universes based on those cardinals.

 

[StorytellingDemonKing]

Bump