Law of Identity Nigh-omniscience

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

No tier 0 Monkey existed. ;-||

 

[Aeyu]

I agree with @Assalt, with the added note that it's anything KNOWN. If it's known by the audience or in the lore, or alluded to in any way, then it can't be tier 0, since tier 0 is a hierarchy thing.

And @Manga

what are you even talking about

 

[Yobo_Blue]

@Yobobojojo
Your memory doesn't serve, unfortunately.

Tier 0s are completely limitless. If they have literally any limitation, no matter how small, they are no Tier 0.

You're right. This however, is the point where the "questionable " part comes in, since they can set their limits and thus it does not matter, whereas with LoI she is limited by it in the sense she cannot do anything because she doesn't know what anything means. This is likely due to her nature as identity, which gives her the power of being everything, yet everything within the verse can also deny everything else, and is as such limited by her lack of knowledge where the others are not

 

[Assaltwaffle]

That's not where "questionable" comes into play. We use questionable because Omnipotence is paradoxical, E.g. "Can you make a rock so heavy you can't lift it?"

I'm pretty sure that is literally the only reason we use "questionable" which I have an issue with as is, since these guys should already be WAY past any possible human logic.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

That's not where "questionable" comes into play. We use questionable because Omnipotence is paradoxical, E.g. "Can you make a rock so heavy you can't lift it?"
I'm pretty sure that is literally the only reason we use "questionable" which I have an issue with as is, since these guys should already be WAY past any possible human logic.

Basically, no Tier 0 please is limited by their intelligence, since they can do anything, including that which they don't know how to do. That is the paradoxical part here LoI, as the manifestation of identity, is restricted by her concept, meaning she can be more than she is because she is the embodiment of the opposite.

Essentially, tier 0s aren't limited in anyway the mind can comprhend

 

[Aeyu]

You could have "Omnipotence," at tier 1-A or even High 1-B. It's just an irrational term, like omniverse, that has several applications and meanings (Paraconsistency-violating and non-paraconsistency-violating, for instance) Questionable is because writers can't "prove," omnipotence, and neither can we. Thus, High 1-A and 0 are best described as functioning at the top of a hierarchy possible beyond dimensional complexity. This has been verified to me by admins and Ant himself several times over.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

We use Questionable because nothing that we can possibly comprehend can gauge any character as being absolutely Omnipotent. No character can be absolutely Omnipotent, either, seeing as multiple Omnipotent beings cannot exist. TOAA has no authority over DC. The Writer has no authority over Marvel. That sort of thing.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

The bottom parts of the Omnipotence page explain it better than I just did.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Basically it comes down to lack of evidence of intelligence being a factor. If it is, not Tier 0

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I think it is pretty different from omniverse. That said I'll argue that later (maybe), and we need to get back on track. LoI is limited.

 

[Aeyu]

It's not about comprehension. In these stories (ones that have High 1-A's and 0's), one must suspend their disbelief with these characters. The answer is generally as I described it above, and has been verified as such many times (Not tooting my own horn, I would just like to think I have a fairly good grasp on these concepts)

That being said, yes, paraconsistency-violating Omnipotence would stray into transfictional omnipotence, which directly violates our Reality - Fiction Interaction page's rules. The other kind rather strays into the realm of transcending all known concepts, which can even be achieved at 1-A.

 

[Antvasima]

@Aeyu

Yes, we are definitely not going to revise the upper levels of the tiering system, and attempts to do so are extremely against our regulations, as it would severely destabilise the wiki.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

It's not about comprehension. In these stories (ones that have High 1-A's and 0's), one must suspend their disbelief with these characters. The answer is generally as I described it above, and has been verified as such many times (Not tooting my own horn, I would just like to think I have a fairly good grasp on these concepts)
That being said, yes, paraconsistency-violating Omnipotence would stray into transfictional omnipotence, which directly violates our Reality - Fiction Interaction page's rules.

I was merely mentioning it as a response to the intelligence argument

Yes, if the writer is to be removed or downgraded, it would be due to reality fiction interactions

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Everything else stays as is for now. This doesn't change what has been established

 

[Antvasima]

In any case, I am extremely busy with a massive edit-monitoring workload, and I have already wasted a few hours arguing about this with you. For me such tasks are a taxing chore, regardless how others feel about them.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I apologize for the inconvenience

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

The Writer need not be removed, just possibly downgraded. He is mentioned by the Overvoid and does appear in the comics as a character.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

That would disqualify him how? As I've said, everything stays the same until further noted, as Ant said. Sorry if this sounds rude, but that's how it is

 

[Aeyu]

@Ant

I'm sorry if these things have been holding you back, and again I mean no disrespect to you or any others on the site. I've tried to handle these arguments to the best of my ability, although it seems Matt and DarkLK will likely be able to help more.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

I didn't say that's what he should be downgraded for. It's because he isn't Omniscient.

And Ant, mind us for the inconveniences.

 

[Zensum]

Huh ''they ''do also appear as a character in swamp thing. Not to derail tho but where is this not omniscient coming from.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I didn't say that's what he should be downgraded for. It's because he isn't Omniscient.
And Ant, mind us for the inconveniences.

Same here. We had no intention of causing you any problems. My apologies. We should either end this trail of conversation or make a separate thread

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

His page has his intelligence listed as "varies". If he were Omniscient in all iterations, I would believe it would just say "Omniscient".

 

[Antvasima]

Thus discussion is quickly spinning out of control, and I definitely do not have any further time and energy to waste on it. I think that it might be best to close it, and start a new staff only discussion instead, to which I invite DarkLK and Matthew to participate.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Ant

Weekly, Monarch, and I are going to make a post tomorrow in which 4 of the Tier 0s are going to be questioned. We can just link this over to that, if you wish.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

Would it be okay for me and Aeyu to participate?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Agreed

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Agreed

I would prefer to be involved, but I understand if I'm too much of a green horn

 

[Zensum]

His page has his intelligence listed as "varies". If he were Omniscient in all iterations, I would believe it would just say "Omniscient".

I think thats refering to individual writers like morrison in animal man or moore in swamp thing not the entity itself which is a conglomerate but ya could probalbly bring that up in another thread

 

[Antvasima]

@Assaltwaffle

I would much prefer if you take such important and sensitive topics to private messages with me first.

Also, we already have several important revisions going at the moment, and are barely, if at all, capable of handling them as it is.

This is an extremely poorly chosen time to completely overexert me.

 

[Antvasima]

I have started a new topic here:

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1288644