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Kuma CRT

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Rin_The_Dragon_Empress

Rin_The_Dragon_Empress

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I've noticed that Kuma's current profile is rather lacking despite him actually displaying a decent amount of hax in the Manga. First things first Kuma should get Non-Physical Interaction due to being able to interact with the Negative Hollows that Perona can make. These ghosts are completely intangible and are able to phase through objects and ignore attacks.
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given that he can physically touch Spirits shouldn't he also get Soul Manipulation for being able to hit them?


The next one is a little more complicated, Kuma has also been shown to repel things such as Pain and Fatigue themselves. Something that shouldn't be possible and shouldn't be tangible. He'd certainly gain Non Physical Interaction and pain manipulation from this as well but I'm not sure what he'd else he'd gain from this, he can remove Abstract things from people such as pain and fatigue. So what would that fall under? I feel like it should be some sort of concept manipulation since he's removing something that's abstract from someone.
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Non-physical interaction is legit, to I.

Conceptual Manipulation would need more evidence that shown he can affect other things to qualified for Type 4

4. Lesser Realist Concept: Such concepts are abstract, but do not govern reality. Instead, these concepts are governed by the perception of these concepts by sentient beings. Without the perception of other beings, these concepts would cease to exist. As such, these concepts are far more vulnerable and are generally lesser when compared to all other abstract concepts. However, these concepts are truly abstract, and manipulating the abstract concept itself is still conceptual manipulation. Similarly to Type 3, this type of conceptual manipulation can only be obtained if the abstract concept itself is changed directly, and not by indirect methods. For example, destroying all sentient life (or otherwise blocking all perception) and thus ending all concepts of this level would not qualify, while directly destroying all concepts of this level and thus blocking all perception would qualify.
 
He's directly effecting something Abstract from someone and removing it from that. I can't really see what else said ability would fall under, any ideas?
 
After research, it looks to be Non-Qualifying Concepts since what he manipulated is not universal

Non-Qualifying Concepts[1]
Concepts that are not abstract or universal, such as those outlined in Idealism and Nominalism, do not qualify for conceptual manipulation of any kind. For a character to qualify for conceptual manipulation the character must be able to manipulate abstract and universal concepts.

Indirect manipulation of concepts, such as the universal changing of the object does not qualify as conceptual manipulation. The use of social influence or any non-supernatural power to achieve an alteration of a concept does not qualify as conceptual manipulation, as this is not a direct manipulation of the concept.
 
Shouldn't that mean there is another power for interacting with abstract idea's? what would being able to interact with emotions and feelings be classified as?
 
Yeah I don't know what to classify the ability is then, he can't still interact and manipulate things that are abstract as Pain and Fatigue, giving them a physical form.
 
Non-Physical interaction seems legit, but I'm skeptical about conceptual manipulation; more like Pain Tolerance.
 
Technically speaking we don't see him use his powers on Perona's ghosts.

Since he knocked Perona away, then it is possible / likely that her ghosts simply vanished with her due to being out of range.
 
Rei Rubro said:
And Kuma should gets Type 7 immortality too, since he becomes a lifeless robot.
Click to expand...
Techinicay all robot are lifeless cause the are robot, instead of giving him any kind of immortality, we can simply right he is a robot hence lack a soul
 
Damage is incorrect, Kuma physically interacted with Persona's ghost, they were directly in front of her so he'd need to get past them along with her. It's also further supported by the One Piece wiki and the description of his ability.

The first and foremost strength of the fruit is that the user is able to push virtually anything they touch into paw-shaped bubbles and send it flying at an extremely high speed. This includes both tangible materials such as people, objects, and even gases such as air as well as intangible things such as the ghosts generated by the Horo Horo no Mi user and the sensation of physical pain.


Damage's argument originates from his own assumptions which are wrong going by the Manga and the Wiki.
 
Wiki is not an official source.

We never see Kuma interact with the ghosts, and I'm guessing we don't have any statements from any characters saying that he touched a ghost?
 
Wiki is a support, we can use it whenever it doesn't go against the Manga, as seen in other threads. It supported the Logia regen upgrade, The Monster Trio's abilities and such.


We have seen him interact with the ghost, he went right through them along with Perona with his hands. Said ghosts are completely intangible, and it's not the first time we've seen him interact with something intangible. He's directly effected both Pain Fatigue where are intangible abstract feelings and he gave them a psychical form.
 
Their Wiki is just as valid as ours. Unless they sources and evidence we can't accept what they say just because it isn't a blatant contradiction.

Also while he is manipulating pain and fatigue in a very odd way, I don't think he is manipulating the universal abstract of pain and fatigue to accomplish this. At least, there is no indication of that from the scan.
 
My point is that though the wiki is valid, it isn't based on an objective sourced fact here but an interpretation of the manga.

Nothing in the manga or in supporting material states that Kuma can interract with the ghosts.

> We have seen him interact with the ghost, he went right through them along with Perona with his hands.

Do you have a panel of Kuma actually touching the ghosts? Or are you assuming that he had to have touched them?
 
Ocams Razor, The Ghost were directly in front of Perona and Kuma. Kuma went straight through them along with Perona, meaning he would have had to go through the ghosts before reaching her. Which he did and it's further supported by the wiki.


@Assalt


Fair enough, although I'm still curious as to what ability that would fall under. I don't really see anything that would fall under his ability to interact with things such as Pain and Fatigue.
 
Except that we've seen that Kuma is extremely fast. Getting around or through the ghosts would be no problem for him.

It is equally likely that Kuma simply sent Perona away like he intended to, and like how it is commented later to have happened, and the ghosts simply disappeared with her no longer there.

For reference in the anime, Kuma only uses his ability a single time judging by the sound effects. He did not rapid-fire send all the ghosts away then move on to Perona.
 
The anime is non Canon and can't be used if it's going against the Manga which it does.


Except that we've seen that Kuma is extremely fast. Getting around or through the ghosts would be no problem for him.


Expect we blatantly see that Kuma didn't move from his spot. He didn't maneuver himself around the ghosts or anything, he directly interacted with them and Perona. You're arguing against this, while using much more assumptions despite it being evidently Cleary and outright stated in the wiki that he interacted with them, not only Perona.


It is equally likely that Kuma simply sent Perona away like he intended to, and like how it is commented later to have happened, and the ghosts simply disappeared with her no longer there.


Again, you are ignoring the fact that the wiki outright states that Kuma can interact with them. You're using a bunch of wild assumptions and going against what's stated. Once again, the wiki states he can interact with them and we clearly see him slapping them away with Perona.
 
> The anime is non Canon and can't be used if it's going against the Manga which it does.

What do you mean? There is no conflict at all between what is portrayed in the manga and what is portrayed in the anime.

> Again, you are ignoring the fact that the wiki outright states that Kuma can interact with them.

Oh yeah, does that statement on the wiki have a source?

> Once again, the wiki states he can interact with them and we clearly see him slapping them away with Perona.

Where do you see Kuma touching the ghosts? I can't see that anywhere?
 
What do you mean? There is no conflict at all between what is portrayed in the manga and what is portrayed in the anime.


The anime isn't canon and can't be used. This is literally even noted in the verse page and the One Piece wiki. There's too many differences in the Manga and the Anime to use them.


Oh yeah, does that statement on the wiki have a source?


The Source is the Manga, in the Manga Kuma is shown swinging his hand , Perona sends her Ghosts flying towards him and Kuma goes directly through them along with Perona. You're also ignoring the fact that Kuma can repel anything, including intangible things such as Pain and Fatigue.


Where do you see Kuma touching the ghosts? I can't see that anywhere


Where do you see Kuma only touching Perona? Both of her Ghosts were directly in front of her and going towards Kuma. Kuma didn't move all he did was move his hand towards them, he wouldn't have needed to interact with the Negative Hollows before hitting Perona.
 
> You're also ignoring the fact that Kuma can repel anything, including intangible things such as Pain and Fatigue.

I'm not disputing that. I'm disputing that he has been shown touching her ghosts which we didn't see him do.

> Where do you see Kuma only touching Perona?

We don't. It's just the logical assumption to me; there is only a single sound-effect, his intended target was Perona.

Even if he did pass through the Negative Hollows, I don't see what difference it would make. His action happened so quickly that it was over and done before anyone could react.


You're free to assume that Kuma touched them and sent them away - I'm just saying that I don't see that and quoting the wiki is absolutely pointless. Anyone could have added that statement. You or I could have added that statement. It is sourced to an interpretation of the scene manga, not anything official.

You can't argue for your interpretation of the manga, and then use your interpretation of the manga as evidence for it just because someone wrote it on the wiki.
 
I'm not disputing that. I'm disputing that he has been shown touching her ghosts which we didn't see him do.

The issue with that is that it's heavily implied that he did not to mention that it's supported by the wiki. Again, it's clear that he went through the ghosts and Perona herself in one swipe. The ghost were charging straight towards Kuma and Perona had some distance between her and Kuma.


We don't. It's just the logical assumption to me; there is only a single sound-effect, his intended target was Perona.


My point exactly. Given the circumstances and the fact that's its outright stated in the wiki which can be used for supporting claims then the safer assumption is that he did indeed interact with Perona and her ghosts.

Even if he did pass through the Negative Hollows, I don't see what difference it would make. His action happened so quickly that it was over and done before anyone could react.


The difference is that it would further his Non-Physical Interaction, it's supporting that he can hit intangible beings with his paws due to interacting with intangible abstracts such as Pain and Fatigue. Perona is only there to further that point.
 
I don't think you understand what I'm getting at regarding my issue with the wiki here.

The wiki is not an official source in the same way as Oda writing: "Kuma swings his hand through Perona and her ghosts, sending them all flying."

The wiki is written by ordinary readers like you and me who have their own interpretation of the manga.

Now, the thing we're arguing about is my interpretation vs. your interpretation.

That isn't the kind of thing that's solved my some other person's interpretation being the same as yours unless you're making this a democratic vote.

Which I'm fine with btw; if people vote to accept this then it is accepted, but that still doesn't make the wiki 'proof'.

Do you get what I mean by that?
 
Even disregarding the anime, we have an ambiguous situation where it is impossible to prove he hit the ghosts and equally plausible that sending Perona flying means that her ghosts disappeared.

Based on that, I have to go with the conservative approach.

Yes, he could interract with Luffy's pain and push that out of his body. We saw him do that.

But no, we didn't see him physically push the ghosts away.
 
Wait, when was it stated that Kuma lacked a soul?

Just because he's no longer conscious now doesn't mean he's soulless.
 
Agreed. I don't think that was ever stated.
 
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