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Kingdom Hearts Low 2-C Upgrade

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Bobsican said:
There's several feats, but I'll quickly get to them, the scans are in the blog at the OP and the debunk blog.

A good portion at the start argues over how all Worlds are pocket realities (this will be relevant later), with them being dimensionally separate from the space between them (the Ocean Between), having their own time axis as explained in KH3D and KHDR, and overall travel being spatially limited in simple terms they fit the overall definition.

Then for the feat with this in mind, the Toy Story universe is not only referred to as a timeline (Which is enought usually to be considered a universe per the Universe page), but with the fact that this is considered a canon crossover, and we consider any default setting bound to a universe, the act of Young Xehanort doing a copy of it, to the point it was visible in the middle of the Realm of Light (aka, the reality where most Worlds are and all, what hosts the Ocean Between), leads to the conclusion that Young Xehanort duplicated a universe, which falls as a Low 2-C feat. This feat may be a bit vague given the low amount of details given, but it still supports its consistency given the details.

Then we have a statement from a Ultimania and in Re:Coded that allows KHI Sora to scale to the KH of Worlds, which sustained a infinite space (Was stated by Ansem and in a KHI Ultimania) with its own time axis (refer to the KH3D lore mentioned before), that's another Low 2-C feat.

Then in Re:Coded, not only we have Data-Riku sustaining a universe (the Datascape), we also have Data-Sora fighting him and easing scaling, and Sora's Heartless threatening to erase the Datascape and then the Real World, which are multiple Low 2-C feats to consider.

With that in mind Low 2-C is surprisingly consistent.
Click to expand...
vsbattles.fandom.com

KH Low 2-C Doc Debunk

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

docs.google.com

Debunking Bob's KH Revisions

The blog gets updated ever so much so I’ll update too when I have the time. Link to blog here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Bobsican/KH_Low_2-C_Feats “As we all know ever since KH3D, Joshua and Riku confirm that every single world has its own flow of time ("So what? That's true o...
docs.google.com docs.google.com

@The_real_cal_howard @Matthew_Schroeder @CrimsonStarFallen @Js250476 @SamanPatou

Would you be willing to evaluate this please?

Please remember to use the Brave Internet browser to open the Google document to be certain to stay anonymous.
 
SamanPatou offsite tells me that he's quite busy and should be left at a side for now to avoid unecessary stonewalling. Which is quite fine as he hasn't agreed or disagreed on the premise of this thread.
 
I would also prefer a more elaborate evaluation.
 
Ultima has told me that if he didn't reply in around 6 hours (which have passed already) we could go on without him.

On that note, LordGriffin1000 appears to be in agreement given his last reply, and there's a notable amount of users, some of which are as veterans as me, being fine with the revision, ElixirBlue, Nehz XZX and Psychomaster also seem to be fine with the revision.

Low 2-C isn't a particularly controversial tier, so I think enought input has been reached, the only one we had in disagreement with an elaborate reason (Mr. Bambu) no longer cares about this thread and his concern was very well covered regardless.

Therefore I think we have reached enought input to apply the CRT, but I'd like to wait for what Ant thinks of course.
 
I am uncertain, as I prefer more staff input for controversial upgrades.

Are there any that you recommend that I haven't called for already?
 
Not really, anyone remotely into the series willing to check has been notified already.

I'll also remind that SamanPatou is too busy to continue on this thread and he'd rathers we go on without him to avoid unecessary stonewalling.

If further staff input is really required, I'd suggest to notify Mr. Bambu again in lack of better options as he did say he'd check further if that was really required or so, maybe other staff that weren't notified already too, but if no one is complaining about Low 2-C after several months since the thread was done I'd suggest to apply the changes, if it's really an issue someone will make a CRT over it as usual.
 
Last edited:
LordGriffin1000 said:
time-axis point
Click to expand...
Yeah, that part of the debunk I certainly didn't agree with. They are suppose to be in the same space but are separate worlds, with each have different time flows.

I know I have agreed with Low 2-C but it's been awhile so I don't remember what I agreed with it tbh. Each world being its own reality makes sense with Worlds like Stitch, off the top of my head.
 
Last edited:
Bobsican said:
Not really, anyone remotely into the series willing to check has been notified already.

I'll also remind that SamanPatou is too busy to continue on this thread and he'd rathers we go on without him to avoid unecessary stonewalling.

If further staff input is really required, I'd suggest to notify Mr. Bambu again in lack of better options as he did say he'd check further if that was really required or so, maybe other staff that weren't notified already too, but if no one is complaining about Low 2-C after several months since the thread was done I'd suggest to apply the changes, if it's really an issue someone will make a CRT over it as usual.
Click to expand...
Okay.

@Mr._Bambu

Would you be willing to provide further input here before we apply the Low 2-C upgrades?

@Elizhaa @AKM sama @DarkDragonMedeus

Your input would also be appreciated if you have the time and energy.
 
Though I am not willing to be involved in this discussion aside from agreeing, it’s probably best to leave Bambu alone and let other staff have input since he stated repeatedly he isn’t interested/doesn’t care.
 
I can give input if desperately needed, but I would like to say again, Kingdom Hearts is my single most disliked verse. I understand the need for insight, especially when so much being put through is suspect- but lord I loathe reading through it. That may be selfish of me to say, but I'd rather avoid this if other suitable people can handle it.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Could someone summarize the main points for the proposals and possible against the grain comments to go with it?
Click to expand...
Bobsican said:
There's several feats, but I'll quickly get to them, the scans are in the blog at the OP and the debunk blog.

A good portion at the start argues over how all Worlds are pocket realities (this will be relevant later), with them being dimensionally separate from the space between them (the Ocean Between), having their own time axis as explained in KH3D and KHDR, and overall travel being spatially limited in simple terms they fit the overall definition.

Then for the feat with this in mind, the Toy Story universe is not only referred to as a timeline (Which is enought usually to be considered a universe per the Universe page), but with the fact that this is considered a canon crossover, and we consider any default setting bound to a universe, the act of Young Xehanort doing a copy of it, to the point it was visible in the middle of the Realm of Light (aka, the reality where most Worlds are and all, what hosts the Ocean Between), leads to the conclusion that Young Xehanort duplicated a universe, which falls as a Low 2-C feat. This feat may be a bit vague given the low amount of details given, but it still supports its consistency given the details.

Then we have a statement from a Ultimania and in Re:Coded that allows KHI Sora to scale to the KH of Worlds, which sustained a infinite space (Was stated by Ansem and in a KHI Ultimania) with its own time axis (refer to the KH3D lore mentioned before), that's another Low 2-C feat.

Then in Re:Coded, not only we have Data-Riku sustaining a universe (the Datascape), we also have Data-Sora fighting him and easing scaling, and Sora's Heartless threatening to erase the Datascape and then the Real World, which are multiple Low 2-C feats to consider.

With that in mind Low 2-C is surprisingly consistent.
Click to expand...
Antvasima said:
vsbattles.fandom.com

KH Low 2-C Doc Debunk

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

docs.google.com

Debunking Bob's KH Revisions

The blog gets updated ever so much so I’ll update too when I have the time. Link to blog here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Bobsican/KH_Low_2-C_Feats “As we all know ever since KH3D, Joshua and Riku confirm that every single world has its own flow of time ("So what? That's true o...
docs.google.com docs.google.com


Please remember to use the Brave Internet browser to open the Google document to be certain to stay anonymous.
Click to expand...
 
So in other words, Kingdom Hearts appears to have a Brane Cosmology as well as the existence of "Meta-Universes"? Where there is a "Universe" that contains other universes being Low 2-C individually, meaning the "Universe" is actually just a Multiverse that happens to be often called a "Universe"? I do know full well how common those are in fiction. So while I'm neutral and do not know full details overall, I'm leaning towards being in the agreement list.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
So in other words, Kingdom Hearts appears to have a Brane Cosmology as well as the existence of "Meta-Universes"? Where there is a "Universe" that contains other universes being Low 2-C individually, meaning the "Universe" is actually just a Multiverse that happens to be often called a "Universe"? I do know full well how common those are in fiction. So while I'm neutral and do not know full details overall, I'm leaning towards being in the agreement list.
Click to expand...
Not exactly, currently we're only arguing that some of the pocket realities are universes, but not all of them, otherwise this would be a 2-B upgrade. Because of this the blog explains how the cases where there's enought information to call the cases in question as universes fit for Low 2-C out of a feat related to them.
Beyond that, yes, there's a "Universe" that contains within it pocket realities, some of which fit the criteria for universes.
 
Ah I see. But even having more than one of those "Low 2-C" sized sub dimensions within the Universe" would still make it a Meta-Universe even if 2-C sized altogether. And made no mention of anybody being 2-C, but just that the overall cosmology would be at least that. But some of those individual "Low 2-C" universes being destroyed or effected would still be Low 2-C.
 
Yeah, no one but true Kingdom Hearts scales to 2-C at the moment, which is why it isn't brought up.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
I can give input if desperately needed, but I would like to say again, Kingdom Hearts is my single most disliked verse. I understand the need for insight, especially when so much being put through is suspect- but lord I loathe reading through it. That may be selfish of me to say, but I'd rather avoid this if other suitable people can handle it.
Click to expand...
Okay. No problem. I find the verse harmless myself though.
 
Okay, I think this may be enought, we have 5 staff members being fine with the changes with no particular objections on the matter.
 
I suppose so, yes, in lack of better options.
 
Among the Low 2-C feats I consider Sora's Heartless' feat from Re:Coded to be the most solid. The Datascape has been established to be a universe and it has been confirmed that Sora's Heartless would have gotten to the real world after destroying the Datascape where it would also have been a threat according to the characters. Just based on Sora's Heartless proceeding to delete the Datascape Data-Riku says that the Datascape needs to be locked since something that "powerful" can't be allowed to get out and that "both worlds are at stake" (this would refer to the Datascape and the real world in context). This indicates that this is not only a feat showcasing the power of Sora's Heartless but that it would be able to do the same to the real world regardless of its origin as data.

After that Sora's Heartless power is mentioned and emphasized multiple times with the indication that it wouldn't take long for the Datascape to get deleted if Sora's Heartless doesn't get stopped and we do in fact get to see the Datascape falling apart on the way to Sora's Heartless in the game. The explanation for how Sora's Heartless became as strong as it was at that point is that it absorbed the intentions or dark data of the defeated Heartless from the Datascape and gradually grew that strong which would also support that it threatening the Datascape is a matter of power.

This feat would be rather iffy with the scaling if the other Low 2-C feats aren't solid enough since Sora's Heartless did fight Pete and Maleficent and Data-Sora fought several other characters who would scale without an indication of his power drastically growing for some reason. Since there is in fact evidence for Low 2-C other than Sora's Heartless' feat I'd personally be inclined to accept that even if it isn't quite as solid instead of letting there be an outlier of literal universal proportions.
 
I am not that knowledgeable on the verse to judge it by myself. If someone is willing to provide arguments from both sides, I can see what I can do.
 
AKM sama said:
I am not that knowledgeable on the verse to judge it by myself. If someone is willing to provide arguments from both sides, I can see what I can do.
Click to expand...

This comment summarize the arguments proposed in the revision:
Bobsican said:
There's several feats, but I'll quickly get to them, the scans are in the blog at the OP and the debunk blog.

A good portion at the start argues over how all Worlds are pocket realities (this will be relevant later), with them being dimensionally separate from the space between them (the Ocean Between), having their own time axis as explained in KH3D and KHDR, and overall travel being spatially limited in simple terms they fit the overall definition.

Then for the feat with this in mind, the Toy Story universe is not only referred to as a timeline (Which is enought usually to be considered a universe per the Universe page), but with the fact that this is considered a canon crossover, and we consider any default setting bound to a universe, the act of Young Xehanort doing a copy of it, to the point it was visible in the middle of the Realm of Light (aka, the reality where most Worlds are and all, what hosts the Ocean Between), leads to the conclusion that Young Xehanort duplicated a universe, which falls as a Low 2-C feat. This feat may be a bit vague given the low amount of details given, but it still supports its consistency given the details.

Then we have a statement from a Ultimania and in Re:Coded that allows KHI Sora to scale to the KH of Worlds, which sustained a infinite space (Was stated by Ansem and in a KHI Ultimania) with its own time axis (refer to the KH3D lore mentioned before), that's another Low 2-C feat.

Then in Re:Coded, not only we have Data-Riku sustaining a universe (the Datascape), we also have Data-Sora fighting him and easing scaling, and Sora's Heartless threatening to erase the Datascape and then the Real World, which are multiple Low 2-C feats to consider.

With that in mind Low 2-C is surprisingly consistent.
Click to expand...

If you have time there are also a couple of blogs with more arguments both in favor and against the revision, which you can find here:
Antvasima said:
vsbattles.fandom.com

KH Low 2-C Doc Debunk

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

docs.google.com

Debunking Bob's KH Revisions

The blog gets updated ever so much so I’ll update too when I have the time. Link to blog here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Bobsican/KH_Low_2-C_Feats “As we all know ever since KH3D, Joshua and Riku confirm that every single world has its own flow of time ("So what? That's true o...
docs.google.com docs.google.com

@The_real_cal_howard @Matthew_Schroeder @CrimsonStarFallen @Js250476 @SamanPatou

Would you be willing to evaluate this please?

Please remember to use the Brave Internet browser to open the Google document to be certain to stay anonymous.
Click to expand...
 
Anyways, the editing has been progressing lately, but I'll have to ask and all as I'm getting some concerns on this matter...

Would it be fine to also upgrade the Lifting Strength of anyone that fits to this upgrade to Immeasurable? Given that we do see the characters being capable of holding back attacks on this level and all for a significant amount of time, for example, Sora blocking Xemnas, Data-Sora blocking Data-Riku, Sora blocking Roxas, etc.

And yes, it's already accepted at this point for it to scale to physical stats and all, but that's just something I have to ask anyways and all.
 
Have they had any immeasurable lifting strength feats? Such as lifting an entire universal spacetime continuum, or somesuch?
 
The argument is that as they're Low 2-C, and their attacks have been held back for noticeable ammounts of time physically, they should have Immeasurable LS out of that (As it'd require Immeasurable LS to lift this sort of stuff), unless that's out of wiki standard.
 
I do not think that is a wiki standard, no. By that logic, anybody who blocks a Low 2-C attack automatically has immeasurable strength.

@Damage3245

What do you think about this?
 
Well, blocking it can just be dismissed as an AP thing and all, but holding it back for a considerable amount of time would fall within Lifting Strength per definition as far I'm aware.
In any case I can wait for what others think on the matter.
 
Bobsican said:
Anyways, the editing has been progressing lately, but I'll have to ask and all as I'm getting some concerns on this matter...

Would it be fine to also upgrade the Lifting Strength of anyone that fits to this upgrade to Immeasurable? Given that we do see the characters being capable of holding back attacks on this level and all for a significant amount of time, for example, Sora blocking Xemnas, Data-Sora blocking Data-Riku, Sora blocking Roxas, etc.

And yes, it's already accepted at this point for it to scale to physical stats and all, but that's just something I have to ask anyways and all.
Click to expand...
@Damage3245 How do these feats on that regard look for that purpose?
 
Uh... I suppose other staff knowledgeable in this area may be pingable at this point if Damage isn't going to comment further.
 
The first link looks like a viable example.

Not so sure about the second link.

Doubtful about the third link as well.
 
Sorry for the double post, but I'd like to notify Damage again to ensure he has seen the edit I did on my previous post, namely to ask what kind of feats to look for this sort of stuff, and about what'd be enought to overall scale AP to LS by holding such back.

Anyways, here's some more feats for consistency to see what works in the meantime:



Overall it seems LS in this manner seems consistent.
 
Bobsican said:
Sorry for the double post, but I'd like to notify Damage again to ensure he has seen the edit I did on my previous post, namely to ask what kind of feats to look for this sort of stuff, and about what'd be enought to overall scale AP to LS by holding such back.

Anyways, here's some more feats for consistency to see what works in the meantime:



Overall it seems LS in this manner seems consistent.
Click to expand...
The link of Sora holding back a Heartless doesn't work for me.
 
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