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Basically every character that's currently rated as High 6-A or higher to be rated as Low 2-C out of scaling to the feats explained in the OP's blog, namely given that as King Mickey is above KHI Sora, who scales to the KH of Worlds stuff, this then leads to about everyone else currently in High 6-A scaling in the same manner they currently are, with the other feats acting as consistency to back it up.Can you summarise what exactly that you want to change, Bobsican?
There's several feats, but I'll quickly get to them, the scans are in the blog at the OP and the debunk blog.Can somebody summarise the reasons for Low 2-C to me please?
Also:
@AKM sama @Matthew_Schroeder @Mr._Bambu
What do you think?
whats the tally so far for this
Before I go, I will note that of the agrees and disagrees, the following is also a relevant statistic.
Agree: 11 (1 Calc Group Member)
Disagree: 1 (1 Admin)
Neutral: 3 (1 Content Mod)
Other staff should very well come look.
There's several feats, but I'll quickly get to them, the scans are in the blog at the OP and the debunk blog.
A good portion at the start argues over how all Worlds are pocket realities (this will be relevant later), with them being dimensionally separate from the space between them (the Ocean Between), having their own time axis as explained in KH3D and KHDR, and overall travel being spatially limited in simple terms they fit the overall definition.
Then for the feat with this in mind, the Toy Story universe is not only referred to as a timeline (Which is enought usually to be considered a universe per the Universe page), but with the fact that this is considered a canon crossover, and we consider any default setting bound to a universe, the act of Young Xehanort doing a copy of it, to the point it was visible in the middle of the Realm of Light (aka, the reality where most Worlds are and all, what hosts the Ocean Between), leads to the conclusion that Young Xehanort duplicated a universe, which falls as a Low 2-C feat. This feat may be a bit vague given the low amount of details given, but it still supports its consistency given the details.
Then we have a statement from a Ultimania and in Re:Coded that allows KHI Sora to scale to the KH of Worlds, which sustained a infinite space (Was stated by Ansem and in a KHI Ultimania) with its own time axis (refer to the KH3D lore mentioned before), that's another Low 2-C feat.
Then in Re:Coded, not only we have Data-Riku sustaining a universe (the Datascape), we also have Data-Sora fighting him and easing scaling, and Sora's Heartless threatening to erase the Datascape and then the Real World, which are multiple Low 2-C feats to consider.
With that in mind Low 2-C is surprisingly consistent.
True KH currently scales to 2 universeswould a couple to a dozen universes into 2-C be accurate?
Okay.The current situation of agreements and disagreements at the moment should be as follow:
Agree: 14 (The_2nd_Existential_Seed, ThanatosX, Kingofwolves999, Nehz_XZX, ProfessorKukui4Life, Milly_Rocking_Bandit, Hizack123, Psychomaster35, ArmBill, Brak, Tipper17, Scottycj256, Zencha, The_Axiom_of_Virgo)
Disagree: 1 (Mr._Bambu, even thought he doesn't seems to be interested in this anymore)
Neutral: 1 (Joycap)
Other staff members expressed their opinions, like ElixirBlue that seemed to agree with the revision and SamanPatou that asked some questions without agreeing or disagreeing with the OP.
I didn't remember that. I just want our staff member who have contributed here to clarify their viewpoints.
just in case, Mr. Bambu tells me he doesn't care anymore, so I think his thoughts on the matter can't really matter anymore as his issues have been covered already respectively.
But yeah, if you don't consider knowledgeable enought (or willing to) to comment on this verse, then I'd suggest to remove yourself from the verse page. The supporters/opponents/neutral list is meant for users that consider themselves knowledgeable, not just what they think over a verse.Not familiar with the verse
Listed in the verse as a knowledgeable member
There's several feats, but I'll quickly get to them, the scans are in the blog at the OP and the debunk blog.
A good portion at the start argues over how all Worlds are pocket realities (this will be relevant later), with them being dimensionally separate from the space between them (the Ocean Between), having their own time axis as explained in KH3D and KHDR, and overall travel being spatially limited in simple terms they fit the overall definition.
Then for the feat with this in mind, the Toy Story universe is not only referred to as a timeline (Which is enought usually to be considered a universe per the Universe page), but with the fact that this is considered a canon crossover, and we consider any default setting bound to a universe, the act of Young Xehanort doing a copy of it, to the point it was visible in the middle of the Realm of Light (aka, the reality where most Worlds are and all, what hosts the Ocean Between), leads to the conclusion that Young Xehanort duplicated a universe, which falls as a Low 2-C feat. This feat may be a bit vague given the low amount of details given, but it still supports its consistency given the details.
Then we have a statement from a Ultimania and in Re:Coded that allows KHI Sora to scale to the KH of Worlds, which sustained a infinite space (Was stated by Ansem and in a KHI Ultimania) with its own time axis (refer to the KH3D lore mentioned before), that's another Low 2-C feat.
Then in Re:Coded, not only we have Data-Riku sustaining a universe (the Datascape), we also have Data-Sora fighting him and easing scaling, and Sora's Heartless threatening to erase the Datascape and then the Real World, which are multiple Low 2-C feats to consider.
With that in mind Low 2-C is surprisingly consistent.
I'm not knowledgeable on KH (only played KH 2 a long time ago). Looking at the first part from Bobsican, those sound like Low 2-C feats but I'll check the debunk blog when I get the chance to properly evaluate it. Might take some time but I'll make the time to look over it.@SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou
Would any of you be willing to evaluate this please?
KH Low 2-C Doc Debunk
vsbattles.fandom.com
Debunking Bob's KH Revisions
The blog gets updated ever so much so I’ll update too when I have the time. Link to blog here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Bobsican/KH_Low_2-C_Feats “As we all know ever since KH3D, Joshua and Riku confirm that every single world has its own flow of time ("So what? That's true o...docs.google.com
Please remember to use the Brave Internet browser to open the Google document to be certain to stay anonymous.
Ok, I've read the blog containing the feats, and the doc containing the debunk. Honestly, I'm not entirely convinced about Low 2-C, and will give my opinion. I won't be going over every detail as I'd like to keep my thoughts on this brief.Would any of you be willing to evaluate this please?
KH Low 2-C Doc Debunk
vsbattles.fandom.com
Debunking Bob's KH Revisions
The blog gets updated ever so much so I’ll update too when I have the time. Link to blog here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Bobsican/KH_Low_2-C_Feats “As we all know ever since KH3D, Joshua and Riku confirm that every single world has its own flow of time ("So what? That's true o...docs.google.com
Please remember to use the Brave Internet browser to open the Google document to be certain to stay anonymous.
Well, first things first, this may be just a miswording, but for the record, we aren't arguing that all Worlds are universal in size (Otherwise this would be a 2-B upgrade), it just so happens that the criteria for something being a pocket reality is very similar to the universe criteria beyond size, however, the time axis stuff is crucial for the KH of Worlds and Toy Story feats as a characteristic time axis is necessary for Low 2-C and all, and unlike other Worlds those do have arguments for their size fitting Low 2-C, as the blog explains.Ok, I've read the blog containing the feats, and the doc containing the debunk. Honestly, I'm not entirely convinced about Low 2-C, and will give my opinion. I won't be going over every detail as I'd like to keep my thoughts on this brief.
I do agree that it's "possible" that the worlds "could" be universe in size. I find the evidence lacking but I don't necessarily 100% agree with the debunk blog regarding the whole time-axis point but in my honest opinion, without something more concrete the worlds having their own space and time flow just still isn't enough to me. My main problem is Xehanort's feat being off screen and thus the method makes it not hold up, even if it's trying to be used as support for Low 2-C that still hurts the overall argument. I can't really comment on the whole physical scaling with the power connection/bonds/the heart and all that so I'm not going to try and give my opinion on that like I know what I'm talking about. For the "endless abyss" statement, if it's from a reliable source like suggested in the blog then it can likely be used but that doesn't mean it's completely sound, at least going off the debunk doc. Overall I don’t have much input to add regarding this portion and will take a neutral stance. Finally, I'm going to lean towards disagreeing with the dreamscap low 2-C stuff. I'm not entirely convinced with Data Riku and his connection to the dreamscap meaning much and decently find Sora's heartless feat not being a solid feat to scale the characters to.
Overall, the best I can agree with is "possibly Low 2-C". I can understand Bobsican's arguments but after reading the debunk doc, I find they could potentially be interpreted differently. However note that this is from someone who has little knowledge on the series of Kingdom Hearts and thus my opinion shouldn't be held at the highest level. If I missed an argument that was presented in the blog or doc, I apologize but from what I've read my opinion isn't likely going to change. I hope this revision gets resolved, as for right now, I need to get back to fixing other verses.
You see, that was my concern. When I first read the blog, I assumed you were saying the there are multiple worlds within a single universe but then the debunk doc was talking about each world isn't being a universe and it started to confuse me regarding what was being suggested. My apologies for misinterpreting what you were suggesting.Well, first things first, this may be just a miswording, but for the record, we aren't arguing that all Worlds are universal in size (Otherwise this would be a 2-B upgrade), it just so happens that the criteria for something being a pocket reality is very similar to the universe criteria beyond size, however, the time axis stuff is crucial for the KH of Worlds and Toy Story feats as a characteristic time axis is necessary for Low 2-C and all, and unlike other Worlds those do have arguments for their size fitting Low 2-C, as the blog explains.
Can you mention what you find questionable/lacking regarding the whole time axis stuff? The KH3D novel goes very in-depth of this and given that it's indirectly stated that every World has its own time axis I'm not sure what your concern here is.
I wasn't dismissing Young Xehanort's feat altogether and know it was used as supporting evidence, I was just saying it couldn't hold up if no other concrete feats were holding it togetherYoung Xehanort's stuff being off-screen making it questionable is understandable and all, yes, however, that feat is moreso meant to back up consistency, after all, in the best case scenario there's no reason for it to scale to physical stats and all with the current details, taking only that feat in a vacuum of course.
Well, it's quite sound when it's not only stated in-game, but it's even backed up in a well-known setting explanation book that is a KH Ultimania, which the debunk blog cites too for this. A slightly more vague similar statement is currently accepted for tier 2 DMC after all, so this appears more than reasonable to use for Low 2-C.
I actually agree with the Dreamscap being a universe, my concern was Data-Riku and how his connection is portrayed. Sure, if he goes, the dreamscap goes but this can be more like a pillar thing, he doesn't necessarily need to that powerful, he just need the connection and boom... however this is just my interpretation. For Heartless Sora erasing the dreamscap, I'd argue it's Existence Erasure hax on a universal scale but if it's more in line with power than just simply hax I'm fine with using it.Anyways, can you explain your issues with the whole Datascape stuff? Unlike the rest, multiple feats are involved here, and so it isn't easy at all to see the possible issue here when the context overall leads to Low 2-C stuff being best here.
Just in case...
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Stabilization_Feats
Requirement 1: The Datascape, a universe ("Sekai" either means society, planet or universe, and society doesn't make sense to be used in the context of the Datascape being erased, and given that it's confirmed to have a copy of all Worlds within it and all (with Traverse Town even having a starry sky to showcase indirectly the other ones, the last part comes from the before-mentioned Birth by Sleep lore in the Second Segment), it can't be bound to just a planet, and so the "universe" meaning of the term is clearly what's being intended. I know this may sound questionable and all, but we have to accept that Japanese is meant to work based around context for the proper meaning of a term, and so we have to customize to that than just drawing lower ends that overall make no sense.
Requirement 2: Data-Riku keeps holding the bugs so the Datascape isn't immediately destroyed
Requirement 3: Data-Riku makes it clear that if he goes down the Datascape will too
Requirement 4: Data-Riku scales to Data-Sora, who scales to Sora's Heartless, which was threatening to erase the Datascape
Overall, Data-Riku fits all the criteria for Stabilization Feats, and so the Low 2-C stuff given the above appears fitting..
Based on what I recall from Re:Coded, there is a repeated emphasis on Sora's Heartless' power even when the only thing everyone knows is that it's going to erase the Datascape. Also, it's data not dreams. Dreams play an important role in Dream Drop Distance but the same can hardly be said for Re:Coded.For Heartless Sora erasing the dreamscap, I'd argue it's Existence Erasure hax on a universal scale but if it's more in line with power than just simply hax I'm fine with using it.
Then I guess it's fine to use. My apologies for saying dreamscap, I was writing fast lol.Based on what I recall from Re:Coded, there is a repeated emphasis on Sora's Heartless' power even when the only thing everyone knows is that it's going to erase the Datascape. Also, it's data not dreams. Dreams play an important role in Dream Drop Distance but the same can hardly be said for Re:Coded.
Don't worry about that too much. It's alright.Then I guess it's fine to use. My apologies for saying dreamscap, I was writing fast lol.
1: Yes, there's multiple Worlds within a greater universe, this is basic KH cosmology, so I'm sorry for not introducing that detail first. In any case, a interview quickly confirms this detail:You see, that was my concern. When I first read the blog, I assumed you were saying the there are multiple worlds within a single universe but then the debunk doc was talking about each world isn't being a universe and it started to confuse me regarding what was being suggested. My apologies for misinterpreting what you were suggesting.
I wasn't dismissing Young Xehanort's feat altogether and know it was used as supporting evidence, I was just saying it couldn't hold up if no other concrete feats were holding it together
I don’t like the idea of using other verses as an example unless I have complete knowledge on the series and while I know much more about DMC than I do Kingdom Hearts, I can't say much about Nightmare's statement but I understand your point all the same,
I actually agree with the Dreamscap being a universe, my concern was Data-Riku and how his connection is portrayed. Sure, if he goes, the dreamscap goes but this can be more like a pillar thing, he doesn't necessarily need to that powerful, he just need the connection and boom... however this is just my interpretation. For Heartless Sora erasing the dreamscap, I'd argue it's Existence Erasure hax on a universal scale but if it's more in line with power than just simply hax I'm fine with using it.
I'm still not 100% but Low 2-C seems logical enough, the argument is there at least.