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Kingdom Hearts Low 2-C Upgrade
- Thread starter Bobsican
- Start date
- Status
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,198
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- Thread starter
- #122
Basically every character that's currently rated as High 6-A or higher to be rated as Low 2-C out of scaling to the feats explained in the OP's blog, namely given that as King Mickey is above KHI Sora, who scales to the KH of Worlds stuff, this then leads to about everyone else currently in High 6-A scaling in the same manner they currently are, with the other feats acting as consistency to back it up.
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I think it's pretty reduant to have debunks then debunking the debunks and then "more" (Classic circular argument that leads nowhere). It's pretty obvious this CRT comes down to semantics as well as personal interpretation (Power-scaling in a nutshell) and for me low 2-C is pretty blatant so change me from neutral to agreeing with the upgrade. Ofc only the KH god tiers should scale this.
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I am truly getting sick of these Google docs wars.
Can the Giver guy just show up and debate here point for point? Or do it in discord? I do not like having to waste my time reading and re-reading these 20 page long docs.
As for the content themselves, I am on the side of Bob, as I have seen most of the evidence presented before and agree with it. Low 2-C is a very common conclusion that can be drawn from a lot of what is shown in KH and Bob expresses a vast majority of those points well.
Can the Giver guy just show up and debate here point for point? Or do it in discord? I do not like having to waste my time reading and re-reading these 20 page long docs.
As for the content themselves, I am on the side of Bob, as I have seen most of the evidence presented before and agree with it. Low 2-C is a very common conclusion that can be drawn from a lot of what is shown in KH and Bob expresses a vast majority of those points well.
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Can somebody summarise the reasons for Low 2-C to me please?
Also:
@AKM sama @Matthew_Schroeder @Mr._Bambu
What do you think?
Also:
@AKM sama @Matthew_Schroeder @Mr._Bambu
What do you think?
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,198
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- Thread starter
- #127
There's several feats, but I'll quickly get to them, the scans are in the blog at the OP and the debunk blog.
A good portion at the start argues over how all Worlds are pocket realities (this will be relevant later), with them being dimensionally separate from the space between them (the Ocean Between), having their own time axis as explained in KH3D and KHDR, and overall travel being spatially limited in simple terms they fit the overall definition.
Then for the feat with this in mind, the Toy Story universe is not only referred to as a timeline (Which is enought usually to be considered a universe per the Universe page), but with the fact that this is considered a canon crossover, and we consider any default setting bound to a universe, the act of Young Xehanort doing a copy of it, to the point it was visible in the middle of the Realm of Light (aka, the reality where most Worlds are and all, what hosts the Ocean Between), leads to the conclusion that Young Xehanort duplicated a universe, which falls as a Low 2-C feat. This feat may be a bit vague given the low amount of details given, but it still supports its consistency given the details.
Then we have a statement from a Ultimania and in Re:Coded that allows KHI Sora to scale to the KH of Worlds, which sustained a infinite space (Was stated by Ansem and in a KHI Ultimania) with its own time axis (refer to the KH3D lore mentioned before), that's another Low 2-C feat.
Then in Re:Coded, not only we have Data-Riku sustaining a universe (the Datascape), we also have Data-Sora fighting him and easing scaling, and Sora's Heartless threatening to erase the Datascape and then the Real World, which are multiple Low 2-C feats to consider.
With that in mind Low 2-C is surprisingly consistent.
Scottycj256
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whats the tally so far for this
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KH Low 2-C Doc Debunk
vsbattles.fandom.com
Debunking Bob's KH Revisions
The blog gets updated ever so much so I’ll update too when I have the time. Link to blog here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Bobsican/KH_Low_2-C_Feats “As we all know ever since KH3D, Joshua and Riku confirm that every single world has its own flow of time ("So what? That's true o...
docs.google.com
@SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245
Would you be willing to help evaluate this please?
Remember to use the Brave Internet browser to open the Google document to be certain to stay anonymous.
Scottycj256
He/Him- 1,766
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one thing I want to ask is, if Low 2-C is considered to be legit, how much higher would the 2-C abilities for the Kingdom Hearts itself be? Or would it be bumped up to higher tiers?
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,198
- 6,097
- Thread starter
- #132
Nah, it'd remain about the same
KH of Worlds would be bumped up from High 4-C to Low 2-C, however, a few more universes to consider for true KH won't put it in 2-B or higher.
On that note, just in case, Mr. Bambu tells me he doesn't care anymore, so I think his thoughts on the matter can't really matter anymore as his issues have been covered already respectively.
KH of Worlds would be bumped up from High 4-C to Low 2-C, however, a few more universes to consider for true KH won't put it in 2-B or higher.
On that note, just in case, Mr. Bambu tells me he doesn't care anymore, so I think his thoughts on the matter can't really matter anymore as his issues have been covered already respectively.
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Scottycj256
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would a couple to a dozen universes into 2-C be accurate?
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,198
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- Thread starter
- #134
True KH currently scales to 2 universes
Toy Box would just be an extra one, End of the World doesn't exist as of KHIII, and the Datascape being destroyed as a byproduct from Jiminy's Journal being vulnerable in this manner would maybe push it up to 4 universes.
In any case, there's way more for true KH, but that'll be for another CRT, as we still require the stuff in here to be accepted before going over more controversial stuff.
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The current situation of agreements and disagreements at the moment should be as follow:
Agree: 14 (The_2nd_Existential_Seed, ThanatosX, Kingofwolves999, Nehz_XZX, ProfessorKukui4Life, Milly_Rocking_Bandit, Hizack123, Psychomaster35, ArmBill, Brak, Tipper17, Scottycj256, Zencha, The_Axiom_of_Virgo)
Disagree: 1 (Mr._Bambu, even thought he doesn't seems to be interested in this anymore)
Neutral: 1 (Joycap)
Other staff members expressed their opinions, like ElixirBlue that seemed to agree with the revision and SamanPatou that asked some questions without agreeing or disagreeing with the OP.
Agree: 14 (The_2nd_Existential_Seed, ThanatosX, Kingofwolves999, Nehz_XZX, ProfessorKukui4Life, Milly_Rocking_Bandit, Hizack123, Psychomaster35, ArmBill, Brak, Tipper17, Scottycj256, Zencha, The_Axiom_of_Virgo)
Disagree: 1 (Mr._Bambu, even thought he doesn't seems to be interested in this anymore)
Neutral: 1 (Joycap)
Other staff members expressed their opinions, like ElixirBlue that seemed to agree with the revision and SamanPatou that asked some questions without agreeing or disagreeing with the OP.
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Ant. He literally said he doesn't care about this revision anymore. What would be the purpose tagging him ?
Mr. Bambu
Suffer-Not-Injustice Bambu
VS Battles
Joke Battles
Super Moderator
Administrator
Calculation Group
Silver Supporter
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I don't particularly care, aye. If the Google doc has been actually debunked, then so be it. I'm not actually familiar with the verse nor do I want to dig through page upon page of possibly misconstrued quotes. If nobody else is capable of handling it, I will try, but I truly don't want to.
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,198
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- Thread starter
- #141
But yeah, if you don't consider knowledgeable enought (or willing to) to comment on this verse, then I'd suggest to remove yourself from the verse page. The supporters/opponents/neutral list is meant for users that consider themselves knowledgeable, not just what they think over a verse.
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Bobsican
He/Him- 21,198
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- Thread starter
- #143
The Knowledgeable Members List is a thing and all, but the Supporters/Opponents/Neutral section is frankly just a leftover of the site that is meant to fill a similar purpose with extra steps as the thread I linked above shows (or so I've been told anyways). In any case, one shouldn't list themselves only based on what they think over a verse, even if this is done regardless as our standards on the matter aren't enforced that much.
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,198
- 6,097
- Thread starter
- #145
Anyways, given the lack of staff input, perhaps Ant could contact more staff? I won't have as much free time later on, so I'd rather get this concluded so the pages are on a more acceptable status as I finish the plans for the next CRT without further hiatus concerns.
Scottycj256
He/Him- 1,766
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14 people agreeing to the CRT should be more than enough for us to move on with the revisions
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@SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou
Would any of you be willing to evaluate this please?
vsbattles.fandom.com
docs.google.com
Please remember to use the Brave Internet browser to open the Google document to be certain to stay anonymous.
Would any of you be willing to evaluate this please?
KH Low 2-C Doc Debunk
vsbattles.fandom.com
Debunking Bob's KH Revisions
The blog gets updated ever so much so I’ll update too when I have the time. Link to blog here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Bobsican/KH_Low_2-C_Feats “As we all know ever since KH3D, Joshua and Riku confirm that every single world has its own flow of time ("So what? That's true o...
docs.google.com
Please remember to use the Brave Internet browser to open the Google document to be certain to stay anonymous.
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I'm not knowledgeable on KH (only played KH 2 a long time ago). Looking at the first part from Bobsican, those sound like Low 2-C feats but I'll check the debunk blog when I get the chance to properly evaluate it. Might take some time but I'll make the time to look over it.@SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou
Would any of you be willing to evaluate this please?
KH Low 2-C Doc Debunk
Debunking Bob's KH Revisions
The blog gets updated ever so much so I’ll update too when I have the time. Link to blog here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Bobsican/KH_Low_2-C_Feats “As we all know ever since KH3D, Joshua and Riku confirm that every single world has its own flow of time ("So what? That's true o...
Please remember to use the Brave Internet browser to open the Google document to be certain to stay anonymous.
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Ok, I've read the blog containing the feats, and the doc containing the debunk. Honestly, I'm not entirely convinced about Low 2-C, and will give my opinion. I won't be going over every detail as I'd like to keep my thoughts on this brief.Would any of you be willing to evaluate this please?
KH Low 2-C Doc Debunk
Debunking Bob's KH Revisions
The blog gets updated ever so much so I’ll update too when I have the time. Link to blog here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Bobsican/KH_Low_2-C_Feats “As we all know ever since KH3D, Joshua and Riku confirm that every single world has its own flow of time ("So what? That's true o...
Please remember to use the Brave Internet browser to open the Google document to be certain to stay anonymous.
I do agree that it's "possible" that the worlds "could" be universe in size. I find the evidence lacking but I don't necessarily 100% agree with the debunk blog regarding the whole time-axis point but in my honest opinion, without something more concrete the worlds having their own space and time flow just still isn't enough to me. My main problem is Xehanort's feat being off screen and thus the method makes it not hold up, even if it's trying to be used as support for Low 2-C that still hurts the overall argument. I can't really comment on the whole physical scaling with the power connection/bonds/the heart and all that so I'm not going to try and give my opinion on that like I know what I'm talking about. For the "endless abyss" statement, if it's from a reliable source like suggested in the blog then it can likely be used but that doesn't mean it's completely sound, at least going off the debunk doc. Overall I don’t have much input to add regarding this portion and will take a neutral stance. Finally, I'm going to lean towards disagreeing with the dreamscap low 2-C stuff. I'm not entirely convinced with Data Riku and his connection to the dreamscap meaning much and decently find Sora's heartless feat not being a solid feat to scale the characters to.
Overall, the best I can agree with is "possibly Low 2-C". I can understand Bobsican's arguments but after reading the debunk doc, I find they could potentially be interpreted differently. However note that this is from someone who has little knowledge on the series of Kingdom Hearts and thus my opinion shouldn't be held at the highest level. If I missed an argument that was presented in the blog or doc, I apologize but from what I've read my opinion isn't likely going to change. I hope this revision gets resolved, as for right now, I need to get back to fixing other verses.
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,198
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- Thread starter
- #155
Well, first things first, this may be just a miswording, but for the record, we aren't arguing that all Worlds are universal in size (Otherwise this would be a 2-B upgrade), it just so happens that the criteria for something being a pocket reality is very similar to the universe criteria beyond size, however, the time axis stuff is crucial for the KH of Worlds and Toy Story feats as a characteristic time axis is necessary for Low 2-C and all, and unlike other Worlds those do have arguments for their size fitting Low 2-C, as the blog explains.
Can you mention what you find questionable/lacking regarding the whole time axis stuff? The KH3D novel goes very in-depth of this and given that it's indirectly stated that every World has its own time axis I'm not sure what your concern here is. This also applies regarding to Worlds having their own space as well for the purposes of fitting the definition a pocket reality and all, after all, the whole argument against the statement over Pete being sent to a "different space" is effectively debunked with the fact that a source way later on after this retcon cites it accordingly with the changed detail.
Young Xehanort's stuff being off-screen making it questionable is understandable and all, yes, however, that feat is moreso meant to back up consistency, after all, in the best case scenario there's no reason for it to scale to physical stats and all with the current details, taking only that feat in a vacuum of course.
Well, it's quite sound when it's not only stated in-game, but it's even backed up in a well-known setting explanation book that is a KH Ultimania, which the debunk blog cites too for this. A slightly more vague similar statement is currently accepted for tier 2 DMC after all, so this appears more than reasonable to use for Low 2-C.
Anyways, can you explain your issues with the whole Datascape stuff? Unlike the rest, multiple feats are involved here, and so it isn't easy at all to see the possible issue here when the context overall leads to Low 2-C stuff being best here.
Just in case...
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Stabilization_Feats
Requirement 1: The Datascape, a universe ("Sekai" either means society, planet or universe, and society doesn't make sense to be used in the context of the Datascape being erased, and given that it's confirmed to have a copy of all Worlds within it and all (with Traverse Town even having a starry sky to showcase indirectly the other ones, the last part comes from the before-mentioned Birth by Sleep lore in the Second Segment), it can't be bound to just a planet, and so the "universe" meaning of the term is clearly what's being intended. I know this may sound questionable and all, but we have to accept that Japanese is meant to work based around context for the proper meaning of a term, and so we have to customize to that than just drawing lower ends that overall make no sense.
Requirement 2: Data-Riku keeps holding the bugs so the Datascape isn't immediately destroyed
Requirement 3: Data-Riku makes it clear that if he goes down the Datascape will too
Requirement 4: Data-Riku scales to Data-Sora, who scales to Sora's Heartless, which was threatening to erase the Datascape
Overall, Data-Riku fits all the criteria for Stabilization Feats, and so the Low 2-C stuff given the above appears fitting.
Please reply to the above when you have the time.
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You see, that was my concern. When I first read the blog, I assumed you were saying the there are multiple worlds within a single universe but then the debunk doc was talking about each world isn't being a universe and it started to confuse me regarding what was being suggested. My apologies for misinterpreting what you were suggesting.
I wasn't dismissing Young Xehanort's feat altogether and know it was used as supporting evidence, I was just saying it couldn't hold up if no other concrete feats were holding it together
I don’t like the idea of using other verses as an example unless I have complete knowledge on the series and while I know much more about DMC than I do Kingdom Hearts, I can't say much about Nightmare's statement but I understand your point all the same,
I actually agree with the Dreamscap being a universe, my concern was Data-Riku and how his connection is portrayed. Sure, if he goes, the dreamscap goes but this can be more like a pillar thing, he doesn't necessarily need to that powerful, he just need the connection and boom... however this is just my interpretation. For Heartless Sora erasing the dreamscap, I'd argue it's Existence Erasure hax on a universal scale but if it's more in line with power than just simply hax I'm fine with using it.
I'm still not 100% but Low 2-C seems logical enough, the argument is there at least.
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Based on what I recall from Re:Coded, there is a repeated emphasis on Sora's Heartless' power even when the only thing everyone knows is that it's going to erase the Datascape. Also, it's data not dreams. Dreams play an important role in Dream Drop Distance but the same can hardly be said for Re:Coded.
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Then I guess it's fine to use. My apologies for saying dreamscap, I was writing fast lol.
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Don't worry about that too much. It's alright.
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,198
- 6,097
- Thread starter
- #160
1: Yes, there's multiple Worlds within a greater universe, this is basic KH cosmology, so I'm sorry for not introducing that detail first. In any case, a interview quickly confirms this detail:
"As for the structure of the worlds, first, the so-to-speak normal worlds—the ones that Sora, the Disney characters and we live on—are situated in the Realm of Light."
I can quickly source the Realm of Light being a universe if that's a concern, but that's not really impactful for tiering here beyond semantic clarification.
2: Yeah, that's fair.
3: Yeah, using other verses as examples doesn't always get the point well, but it still shows an example where standards over this kind of stuff have been valid before.
4: It's more than a connection, he literally is Jiminy's Journal (Aka, the Datascape), but I think that has been made clear by now. That being said, it's stated that Sora's Heartess was basically absorbing it (This statement confirms that he became stronger with dark data that he assimilated, while the Re:Coded Ultimania then confirms he wanted to devour the Datascape by sending it to darkness and thus deleting it), so it'd inherently scale to physical stats, especially with how it's the combination of all the bugs, some of which threatened Data-Riku as explained before, and he still managed to hold them back for a while as explained in the blog.
Anyways, if this is then fine overall, please confirm once more, unless you think even more staff is required to corroborate.
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