- 3,904
- 683
That literally debunked '''none''' of Inverted's question.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Kingdom Hearts III & Knuckles: The Ultima Werse additions
- Thread starter Bobsican
- Start date
- 33,405
- 8,417
What exactly are you trying to prove with "transcending space and time"? Please don't say High 2-A...Transcending Space and Time needs a little more context than just that one off quote. By the context, it's literally just referring to his Time Travel ability. Without further evidence and feats, that is nothing more than Hyperbole.
- 33,405
- 8,417
This is in regards to 2-C.Dragonmasterxyz said:
| As long as there are people, darkness would devour the light. And the light would later shine brighter to banish the darkness. There will be no balance; only an eternal and chaotic struggle of both sides with the scales between them shifting many countless times. To achieve true everlasting balance, a reset must occur, with him at the helm of the New World to dictate its destiny and prevent it from "failing" yet again. |
- 33,405
- 8,417
Also, let's focus on the KH3 cast right now. Worry about Unchained and Foreseers in another discussion.
- 8,119
- 1,564
Oh... I thought we could focus on it since it was included in KH3 and because they played a key part in the story with assisting Sora ...
Also after looking at the Giant Demon Tower fight... There is more solid evidence the cast scales to the Demon Tower relatively easily. However I can always make a separate thread for it.
Also after looking at the Giant Demon Tower fight... There is more solid evidence the cast scales to the Demon Tower relatively easily. However I can always make a separate thread for it.
- 8,119
- 1,564
Bump. Speaking of making a separate thread... I did make a thread concerning the scaling for the Union X characters
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2995519
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2995519
- 8,725
- 13,391
Dargonmasterxyz KH would never be High 2-A. In fact, being 2-C is already very high. The real problem is again the lore : KH is said to be the origin of the Light but the Darkness existed before light. The RoD is part of Darkness itself. So in my opinion, KH can't influence the RoD because it's separated from its power while the RoL, the Dream World and the RiB are mostly connected to the light.
- 3,904
- 683
Except there's several quotes about him being able to transcend time and space, in-verse and from the author himself, and time travel is something a 4th dimensional being would be able to do regardless, nor is that remotely how hyperbole works.Dragonmasterxyz said:
- 33,405
- 8,417
What other statements. Link everyone of them please. As currently, him "Transcending space and time" is nothing more than an exaggeration to his time travelling shenanigans.
- 3,904
- 683
No it's wouldn't currently whatsoever, they don't say it in an exaggerative or hyperbolic manner, and all time travel would do is at most amp the point that he transcends space and time.
https://www.quora.com/How-can-I-tell-if-I-am-exaggerating-something
https://literarydevices.net/exaggeration/
This argument insults literary devices(obviously that's an exaggeration).
Nothing implies Riku talking with the folks of why he can travel through time is exaggeration.
https://www.khinsider.com/news/KH3D-Ultimania-Interviews-Translated-2602 "—Were the 13 Seekers of Darkness, who were meant to be in different times, gathered by transcending time with magic?
Nomura: Just as it says in the story, to transcend time one must 'first' discard their form. As a result of the actions of the Brown Robed Figure, they all were in a state where they had gained the power to transcend time. The Brown Robed Figure explains the facts. The thirteen were summoned at the same time, this time thanks to Young Xehanort who borrowed that power. However, apart from Young Xehanort, that does not mean that all the members transcended time."
"— Did King Mickey's time magic not work properly on Young Xehanort because Young Xehanort has the power to control time?
Nomura: Not Young Xehanort's but rather Master Xehanort's power. King Mickey was surprised at the time, seeing his Keyblade and noticing he harboured the power of Master Xehanort. That Keyblade was designed as the one Master Xehanort used in KHBBS combined with an hourglass, you see."
https://www.quora.com/How-can-I-tell-if-I-am-exaggerating-something
https://literarydevices.net/exaggeration/
This argument insults literary devices(obviously that's an exaggeration).
Nothing implies Riku talking with the folks of why he can travel through time is exaggeration.
https://www.khinsider.com/news/KH3D-Ultimania-Interviews-Translated-2602 "—Were the 13 Seekers of Darkness, who were meant to be in different times, gathered by transcending time with magic?
Nomura: Just as it says in the story, to transcend time one must 'first' discard their form. As a result of the actions of the Brown Robed Figure, they all were in a state where they had gained the power to transcend time. The Brown Robed Figure explains the facts. The thirteen were summoned at the same time, this time thanks to Young Xehanort who borrowed that power. However, apart from Young Xehanort, that does not mean that all the members transcended time."
"— Did King Mickey's time magic not work properly on Young Xehanort because Young Xehanort has the power to control time?
Nomura: Not Young Xehanort's but rather Master Xehanort's power. King Mickey was surprised at the time, seeing his Keyblade and noticing he harboured the power of Master Xehanort. That Keyblade was designed as the one Master Xehanort used in KHBBS combined with an hourglass, you see."
- 33,405
- 8,417
Hm. Neat, thanks for the correction.
Anywho in this context, transcending time is simply time travel. Nothing special. Nothing that would prove infinite or immeasurable speed nor something like High 2-A. Although, this grants Xehanort a pretty nice resistance to Temporal and Spatial abilities. So Xehanort gets a buff there.
Anywho in this context, transcending time is simply time travel. Nothing special. Nothing that would prove infinite or immeasurable speed nor something like High 2-A. Although, this grants Xehanort a pretty nice resistance to Temporal and Spatial abilities. So Xehanort gets a buff there.
- 825
- 109
I really don't see why they would be Infinite in speed. Aqua literally fought for years in a timeless void and there are other characters who are fine moving in the Realm of Darkness as well, most notably Mickey, Riku, and Sora as well. Heartless naturally inhabit it as well.
Nobody was arguing that they were High 2-A off of it, they'd need to have an infinite amount of timelines for that to happen which was not brought up. The transcend time and space literally should still apply to the fact they can time travel by literal virtue he does transcend space and time, it really doesn't make since for the vice versa option when the first one takes less assumptions.
Are you agreeing to 2-C or no? Because that quote shows that there is a literal imbalance of the two which goes in favor of the two, in which Xehanort would erase both and restart the world from scratch.
Nobody was arguing that they were High 2-A off of it, they'd need to have an infinite amount of timelines for that to happen which was not brought up. The transcend time and space literally should still apply to the fact they can time travel by literal virtue he does transcend space and time, it really doesn't make since for the vice versa option when the first one takes less assumptions.
Are you agreeing to 2-C or no? Because that quote shows that there is a literal imbalance of the two which goes in favor of the two, in which Xehanort would erase both and restart the world from scratch.
- 33,405
- 8,417
Then what was the point of the transcend time/space stuff for. It's so irrelevant. So I was confused as to why it was being discussed. Usually people are arguing for those things when they bring up "transcending time and space".
Anyway, I have been talking with Ever and he has this to say.
"The problem with that is he only refers to this in relation to the Realm of Light. The Realm of Darkness is its own separate thing that doesn't affect the Realm of Light unless people in the Realm of Light do something. There is no true balance in the Realm of Light."
Thus I still disagree with 2-C.
Anyway, I have been talking with Ever and he has this to say.
"The problem with that is he only refers to this in relation to the Realm of Light. The Realm of Darkness is its own separate thing that doesn't affect the Realm of Light unless people in the Realm of Light do something. There is no true balance in the Realm of Light."
Thus I still disagree with 2-C.
- 3,904
- 683
Transcending time being time travel does not debunk him transcending time, a 4D being is literally able to time travel, nor did I state he'd get High 2-A via this. There's several profiles on the wiki where a character is Low 2-C for transcending time and space, I don't know why you assumed automatically High 2-A without the multiverse being infinite. Immeasurable speed and low 2-C would definitely apply her eunless you can show me any proof that he isn't truly transcending time. A 4D being able to time travel does not debunk them being 4D.Dragonmasterxyz said:
- 33,405
- 8,417
You need to calm down. Your constant aggressive attitude is not going to make anyone want to listen to you.
"Transcending time being time travel does not debunk him transcending time"
Did I say it did? I literally said transcending time being time travel meant simply that.
"nor did I state he'd get High 2-A via this. There's several profiles on the wiki where a character is Low 2-C for transcending time and space"
Show me these characters please. Also, two wrongs do not make a right.
" I don't know why you assumed automatically High 2-A without the multiverse being infinite."
You clearly didn't read my comment that referred to Inverted.
" Immeasurable speed and low 2-C would definitely apply her eunless you can show me any proof that he isn't truly transcending time."
You actually have to prove that this transcending time is literal when context literally implies that it's the simple fact that they can easily travel through time. Not that he's beyond time and space as you assume. Prove the positive. Beings who transcend time are not automatically Immeasurable or Low 2-C. Overall this evidence in an attempt to make them Infinite, Immeasurable or Low 2-C is very lackluster. We need more than this.
"A 4D being able to time travel does not debunk them being 4D."
Never said it did. But you haven't proven he's a 4-D being in the first place.
"Transcending time being time travel does not debunk him transcending time"
Did I say it did? I literally said transcending time being time travel meant simply that.
"nor did I state he'd get High 2-A via this. There's several profiles on the wiki where a character is Low 2-C for transcending time and space"
Show me these characters please. Also, two wrongs do not make a right.
" I don't know why you assumed automatically High 2-A without the multiverse being infinite."
You clearly didn't read my comment that referred to Inverted.
" Immeasurable speed and low 2-C would definitely apply her eunless you can show me any proof that he isn't truly transcending time."
You actually have to prove that this transcending time is literal when context literally implies that it's the simple fact that they can easily travel through time. Not that he's beyond time and space as you assume. Prove the positive. Beings who transcend time are not automatically Immeasurable or Low 2-C. Overall this evidence in an attempt to make them Infinite, Immeasurable or Low 2-C is very lackluster. We need more than this.
"A 4D being able to time travel does not debunk them being 4D."
Never said it did. But you haven't proven he's a 4-D being in the first place.
- 3,904
- 683
I'm not being aggressive whatsoever. You're just assuming that purely because I've added bold to my claims (which are reguarly used for emphasis). But playing devil's advocate and assuming this the case regardless, why would my "aggressive attitude" suddenly change the validity of my argument? If you refuse to believe my argument because of "aggressiveness" that's borderline ''pettyness (note I'm not calling you petty, I'm stating what it is). This is a complete red herring irregardless.
You saying it being time travel is you saying it's debunked by it being referred to as time travel. It can be time travel and 4D. Nothing you've claimed here debunks him being 4D, only trying to stick to the notion that it's merely time travel despite Nomura outright saying "Just as it says in the story, to transcend time one must 'first' discard their form. As a result of the actions of the Brown Robed Figure, they all were in a state where they had gained the power to transcend time. The Brown Robed Figure explains the facts. The thirteen were summoned at the same time, this time thanks to Young Xehanort who borrowed that power. However, apart from Young Xehanort, that does not mean that all the members transcended time." This would only prove in order to time travel in verse you're required to transcend space and time. Not that transcending space and time is referring to time travel.
Why would I need to read a comment you've made in the middle of me typing a response especially when it's a reply to inverted and not me?
I have proven it. You're refute merely was misunderstanding the very context of the scan. Characters in verse and Nomura himself both state he transcends space and time in order to time travel. That just means you get this power via acheiving this goal. It's not an assumption, it's clearly stated by the entire cast. The profile you linked outright states the character has the ability to transcend it and doesn't reguarly do it, regardlesss linking me another profile on your wiki and trying to use it as an objective standpoint despite the speed page clearly contradicting it is an appeal to authority.
"Immeasurable (Movement beyond linear time. This is why the speed cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed. For further information, see note 5 below.)"
If you're transcending time and space you're clearly beyond linear time so that profile's speed is either wrong or it's not consistent which is a problem on the digimon end and not the KH end, so this also stacks as a false equivalence.
I've already proven he's 4D. Show me any proof debunking the notion that he's 4D for achieving time travel via the requirement to achieve it in verse and being backed up by' WoG.'
You saying it being time travel is you saying it's debunked by it being referred to as time travel. It can be time travel and 4D. Nothing you've claimed here debunks him being 4D, only trying to stick to the notion that it's merely time travel despite Nomura outright saying "Just as it says in the story, to transcend time one must 'first' discard their form. As a result of the actions of the Brown Robed Figure, they all were in a state where they had gained the power to transcend time. The Brown Robed Figure explains the facts. The thirteen were summoned at the same time, this time thanks to Young Xehanort who borrowed that power. However, apart from Young Xehanort, that does not mean that all the members transcended time." This would only prove in order to time travel in verse you're required to transcend space and time. Not that transcending space and time is referring to time travel.
Why would I need to read a comment you've made in the middle of me typing a response especially when it's a reply to inverted and not me?
I have proven it. You're refute merely was misunderstanding the very context of the scan. Characters in verse and Nomura himself both state he transcends space and time in order to time travel. That just means you get this power via acheiving this goal. It's not an assumption, it's clearly stated by the entire cast. The profile you linked outright states the character has the ability to transcend it and doesn't reguarly do it, regardlesss linking me another profile on your wiki and trying to use it as an objective standpoint despite the speed page clearly contradicting it is an appeal to authority.
"Immeasurable (Movement beyond linear time. This is why the speed cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed. For further information, see note 5 below.)"
If you're transcending time and space you're clearly beyond linear time so that profile's speed is either wrong or it's not consistent which is a problem on the digimon end and not the KH end, so this also stacks as a false equivalence.
I've already proven he's 4D. Show me any proof debunking the notion that he's 4D for achieving time travel via the requirement to achieve it in verse and being backed up by' WoG.'
- 33,405
- 8,417
"I'm not being aggressive whatsoever. You're just assuming that purely because I've added bold to my claims (which are reguarly used for emphasis). But playing devil's advocate and assuming this the case regardless, why would my "aggressive attitude" suddenly change the validity of my argument? If you refuse to believe my argument because of "aggressiveness" that's borderline ''pettyness (note I'm not calling you petty, I'm stating what it is). This is a complete red herring irregardless. "
This is me pointing out how it seemed based on the tone of your comment. Not to mention that I am not going to ignore your comment, just that other people will. Not that what I said had any bearing of my main argument
"You saying it being time travel is you saying it's debunked by it being referred to as time travel. It can be time travel and 4D."
No as I still called it transcending time in a fashion? Just that it was a time travel thing. I even showed you a character who has the exact same type of statement.
" Nothing you've claimed here debunks him being 4D, only trying to stick to the notion that it's merely time travel despite Nomura outright saying "Just as it says in the story, to transcend time one must 'first' discard their form.As a result of the actions of the Brown Robed Figure, they all were in a state where they had gained the power to transcend time. The Brown Robed Figure explains the facts. The thirteen were summoned at the same time, this time thanks to Young Xehanort who borrowed that power. However, apart from Young Xehanort, that does not mean that all the members transcended time." This would only prove in order to time travel in verse you're required to transcend space and time. Not that transcending space and time is referring to time trave"
Yet, transcending time in the story blatantly means to time travel. Not that he as a being is beyond the concept of time and space itself. Just because one is stated to transcend time does not mean they are Low 2-C or Immeasurable automatically. That not how we treat things here. How do I know? Timemo has the same statement of transcending space and time. Not Low 2-C or Immeasurable. Dialga literally got his Immeasurable stat removed due to this not being enough information and it has more supporting Immeasurable speed than Xehanort. So let's say you are correct, it would still not support what you want it to.
"Why would I need to read a comment you've made in the middle of me typing a response especially when it's a reply to inverted and not me? "
You assume I knew how long you were typing your comment. And even if it's directed at someone else, it could answer something you would ask in your comment.
"I have proven it. You're refute merely was misunderstanding the very context of the scan. Characters in verse and Nomura himself both state he transcends space and time in order to time travel. That just means you get this power via acheiving this goal. It's not an assumption, it's clearly stated by the entire cast."
Which alone is not Low 2-C or Immeasurable.
"The profile you linked outright states the character has the ability to transcend it and doesn't reguarly do it, regardlesss linking me another profile on your wiki and trying to use it as an objective standpoint despite the speed page clearly contradicting it is an appeal to authority."
Except it proves our standards on the matter. If you want to change this standard, go ahead. That's what CRT's are for. But we aren't going to budge our standards because you want Low 2-C and Immeasurable Xehanort. Matter of fact, I'll happily make a thread for you.
"If you're transcending time and space you're clearly beyond linear time so that profile's speed is either wrong or it's not consistent which is a problem on the digimon end and not the KH end, so this also stacks as a false equivalence."
Or it's just that we don't just give one Immeasurable speed for "Transcending Time".
"I've already proven he's 4D. Show me any proof debunking the notion that he's 4D for achieving time travel via the requirement to achieve it in verse and being backed up by' WoG.'"
"Xehanort is still visibly bound by linear time and causality or else he wouldn't have to go back in time and live out his life like everyone else. I feel like it's pretty obvious that transcending time is to refer to the general ability to time travel, as Young Xehanort (Clearly none of the other Seekers, which is also stated) is able to freely go through time, but clearly acknowledges that he must return to his time and live out his life, why that would be relevant to him if he transcended time I have no idea, nor why he would be limited by the laws of time. Further, Young Xehanort was unable to break out of Stopza of his own accord, why would that be a problem if he transcended time altogether?"
This is me pointing out how it seemed based on the tone of your comment. Not to mention that I am not going to ignore your comment, just that other people will. Not that what I said had any bearing of my main argument
"You saying it being time travel is you saying it's debunked by it being referred to as time travel. It can be time travel and 4D."
No as I still called it transcending time in a fashion? Just that it was a time travel thing. I even showed you a character who has the exact same type of statement.
" Nothing you've claimed here debunks him being 4D, only trying to stick to the notion that it's merely time travel despite Nomura outright saying "Just as it says in the story, to transcend time one must 'first' discard their form.As a result of the actions of the Brown Robed Figure, they all were in a state where they had gained the power to transcend time. The Brown Robed Figure explains the facts. The thirteen were summoned at the same time, this time thanks to Young Xehanort who borrowed that power. However, apart from Young Xehanort, that does not mean that all the members transcended time." This would only prove in order to time travel in verse you're required to transcend space and time. Not that transcending space and time is referring to time trave"
Yet, transcending time in the story blatantly means to time travel. Not that he as a being is beyond the concept of time and space itself. Just because one is stated to transcend time does not mean they are Low 2-C or Immeasurable automatically. That not how we treat things here. How do I know? Timemo has the same statement of transcending space and time. Not Low 2-C or Immeasurable. Dialga literally got his Immeasurable stat removed due to this not being enough information and it has more supporting Immeasurable speed than Xehanort. So let's say you are correct, it would still not support what you want it to.
"Why would I need to read a comment you've made in the middle of me typing a response especially when it's a reply to inverted and not me? "
You assume I knew how long you were typing your comment. And even if it's directed at someone else, it could answer something you would ask in your comment.
"I have proven it. You're refute merely was misunderstanding the very context of the scan. Characters in verse and Nomura himself both state he transcends space and time in order to time travel. That just means you get this power via acheiving this goal. It's not an assumption, it's clearly stated by the entire cast."
Which alone is not Low 2-C or Immeasurable.
"The profile you linked outright states the character has the ability to transcend it and doesn't reguarly do it, regardlesss linking me another profile on your wiki and trying to use it as an objective standpoint despite the speed page clearly contradicting it is an appeal to authority."
Except it proves our standards on the matter. If you want to change this standard, go ahead. That's what CRT's are for. But we aren't going to budge our standards because you want Low 2-C and Immeasurable Xehanort. Matter of fact, I'll happily make a thread for you.
"If you're transcending time and space you're clearly beyond linear time so that profile's speed is either wrong or it's not consistent which is a problem on the digimon end and not the KH end, so this also stacks as a false equivalence."
Or it's just that we don't just give one Immeasurable speed for "Transcending Time".
"I've already proven he's 4D. Show me any proof debunking the notion that he's 4D for achieving time travel via the requirement to achieve it in verse and being backed up by' WoG.'"
"Xehanort is still visibly bound by linear time and causality or else he wouldn't have to go back in time and live out his life like everyone else. I feel like it's pretty obvious that transcending time is to refer to the general ability to time travel, as Young Xehanort (Clearly none of the other Seekers, which is also stated) is able to freely go through time, but clearly acknowledges that he must return to his time and live out his life, why that would be relevant to him if he transcended time I have no idea, nor why he would be limited by the laws of time. Further, Young Xehanort was unable to break out of Stopza of his own accord, why would that be a problem if he transcended time altogether?"
- 825
- 109
See, the problem is also that the Heartless spawn from the Realm of Darkness as well. They are very much a problem in this back and forth struggle of light and darkness in Kingdom Hearts, it really wouldn't make sense in the context of Xehanort saying this to only talk about the Realm of Light when its counterpart has played just as an important of an arguable integral part that comes with the imbalanced clash between both forces.
- 33,405
- 8,417
Yes, Heartless do in fact come from Realm of Light, however as stated in the quote, the main issue is the darkness in peoples hearts from the Realm of Light. The only reason the Realm of Darkness affects the realm of Light is due to the imbalance and darkness from the inhabitants from the Realm of Light, not Darkness. It seems to make perfect sense that Xehanort is focusing on the World of Light. as the issue of balance is the World of Light.
Either way, I won't be able to comment in depth much today. If Ever has anything to say, I'll copy and paste his arguments here.
Either way, I won't be able to comment in depth much today. If Ever has anything to say, I'll copy and paste his arguments here.
- 8,725
- 13,391
For now, it seems to be. There are some things that could possibly confirm it but it's too insconsistent.
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,383
- 6,137
- Thread starter
- #107
Wouldn´t that make Maleficent and Pete scale too?
- 8,725
- 13,391
Yeah, possibly is good. I meant 2-C alone by saying it was inconsistent (at least for me).
Sora is indeed weaker at the beginning of the game due to the events of DDD. For Pete and Maleficent, i think they could scale. The doubt about this is they don't fight at all during the game. But they at least scale to pre KH 3 Sora.
Sora is indeed weaker at the beginning of the game due to the events of DDD. For Pete and Maleficent, i think they could scale. The doubt about this is they don't fight at all during the game. But they at least scale to pre KH 3 Sora.
- 7,065
- 1,450
He's stated to have lost the power he gained in DDD. He always has a reason as to why he's back to Lvl 1. And this is only at the beginning of the game mind you.Bobsican said:
CoM: Forgot how to fight.
2: Forgot CoM and Slept a Year
DDD: Had to forget everything self taught
- 8,725
- 13,391
Yep, perhaps KH3 ending key ?
- 8,725
- 13,391
Sounds good to me.
- 33,405
- 8,417
I still don't agree to 2-C btw.
- 63,522
- 8,487
Didn't we agree that only Xehanort is 3A?
- 3,904
- 683
"This is me pointing out how it seemed based on the tone of your comment. Not to mention that I am not going to ignore your comment, just that other people will. Not that what I said had any bearing of my main argument"
>It is objectively impossible to read a tone of an argument (unless the person is making it perfectly clear), for all you know the person speaking in caps is laughing behind his screen out of joy, so again no reason to warn me about agressiveness when it never occured.
"No as I still called it transcending time in a fashion? Just that it was a time travel thing. I even showed you a character who has the exact same type of statement."
>How does that support your premise whatsoever? The character you showed once again is an appeal to authority, something you ignored in your previous comment, and you ignored the possiblity that the profile might just be straight up wrong.
"Yet, transcending time in the story blatantly means to time travel. Not that he as a being is beyond the concept of time and space itself. Just because one is stated to transcend time does not mean they are Low 2-C or Immeasurable automatically. That not how we treat things here. How do I know? Timemo has the same statement of transcending space and time. Not Low 2-C or Immeasurable. Dialga literally got his Immeasurable stat removed due to this not being enough information and it has more supporting Immeasurable speed than Xehanort. So let's say you are correct, it would still not support what you want it to."
>You're repeating yourself ad nauseum. I've already explained the context of how transcending time works, also where did I state he's beyond the concept of time and space? You can be beyond time and space and not be beyond it's concepts. Aka linear time and space. Or else characters that transcend the very concept should be High 2-A since they would view time and space as spatially flat. It's clear in both of the statements that in order to time travel in the verse you must transcend time and space. It's right there, refute that point instead of repeating "it's just referring to time travel". The only thing I see for Timemon is that he has an ability too, and as I've already explained it's an appeal to authority to try and argue because that one page does that my premise is automatically wrong. Also for Dialga, I... have no idea where you got that conclusion from, that's actually the complete opposite of why his immeasurable stat was removed. This thread shows they removed it because nothing remotely implied he goes beyond it or transcends it because he is time itself, so the logic falls under him being able to transcend himself.
"Immeasurable Speed: Comes from Dialga. This just makes zero sense. Dialga can't travel "beyond time" or "exceed time". That is like me saying I can travel "beyond myself" or "exceed myself". This doesn't work, while Infinite works better."
"Immeasurable: Dialga can't be beyond time. He is time. It was agreed last thread that all the scans prove is that Dialga has very versatile Time Travel. That is completely different than being beyond speed and time entirely."
"Dialga is omnipresent in his own realm alone and his physical self must time travel. He is infinite for being time, but being 4-D =/= transcending time itself and gaining Immeasurable speed."
"Being beyond conventional time is immeasurable. They aren't infinite because they can travel whenever; Dialga uses his time travel to pull that off. Their infinite feat isn't fighting in a shattered space-time continuum."
"You assume I knew how long you were typing your comment. And even if it's directed at someone else, it could answer something you would ask in your comment." >The point of that refute was that you've made a fallacious assumption to even delve into the idea that I saw the comment before replying, or else I would of simply not
"Which alone is not Low 2-C or Immeasurable."
>That's not a refute whatsoever. Prove why it's not I've already shown you the positive proof and you just restricted to "it's not".
"Except it proves our standards on the matter. If you want to change this standard, go ahead. That's what CRT's are for. But we aren't going to budge our standards because you want Low 2-C and Immeasurable Xehanort. Matter of fact, I'll happily make a thread for you. Or it's just that we don't just give one Immeasurable speed for "Transcending Time"."
>So you've outright ignored the appeal to authority and the fact that the speed page outright contradicts your "standards". Let's review the speed page once again:
"Immeasurable (Movement beyond linear time. This is why the speed cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed. For further information, see note 5 below.)"
Except you do use that as a justification for immeasurable speed, allow me to link the many profiles that outright contradict your timemon profile and it would end the same way. Difference is the profiles follow my correlation with what your speed page literally list.
Serge- "Immeasurable with the Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross (Allows him to exist beyond time and space)"
Evil Entity- "Immeasurable (A higher dimensional being who moves in the 4th and higher dimensions)"
Providence_(Bravely_Default)- "Immeasurable (Exists in a plane of existence above the space-time of Luxendarc, with the party's emotions and words resonating to both the player and the people of Luxendarc "across space and time")"
Just to refute some possible points I just foresee being used, if you try to use the argument it says "exist" the very definition of "exist" is having objective reality/being so all that would do is apply to Xehanort to.
"Xehanort is still visibly bound by linear time and causality or else he wouldn't have to go back in time and live out his life like everyone else. I feel like it's pretty obvious that transcending time is to refer to the general ability to time travel, as Young Xehanort (Clearly none of the other Seekers, which is also stated) is able to freely go through time, but clearly acknowledges that he must return to his time and live out his life, why that would be relevant to him if he transcended time I have no idea, nor why he would be limited by the laws of time. Further, Young Xehanort was unable to break out of Stopza of his own accord, why would that be a problem if he transcended time altogether?"
>How is he bound by linear time? He has acausality, and a lot of 4D and above characters on your wiki don't have acausality, so does this mean they too are affected by causality and should by extension be downgraded? He needed to go back in time prior to gaining the ability. You're applying a Xehanort who isn't even confirmed to have the power to transcend time and space at the time of the story and appyling it to where he's stated to have it. Mind you where do you see Old Xehanort remotely shown wanting a younger body again after he reappears in DDD? Also the literal quote from Nomura himself states Xehanort discards his form when he transcends time. So this is pure assumption. Young Xehanort gains the ability cause Xehanort teaches him it. Guess, I need to relink this quote yet again, "As a result of the actions of the Brown Robed Figure, they all were in a state where they had gained the power to transcend time." You've clearly once again misrepresented Young Xehanort's actions, he was referring to the fact that the host body Xehanort brought apart of his true orgnization has died therefore he'd be discarded back to the past and no longer have the power that his old self gave him. Yes one would be limited by the laws, just because you transcend space and time does not correlate to transcending laws. I have no idea where you got this ideal from. Transcending time =/= transcending laws. I hope you know in the KH verse that stopza is one of the most powerful forms of time magic and a weaker time magic, aka lethal frame can outright bypass ones resistance to time magic is shown right on Sora's profile. I remember someone already saying Aqua has time magic that bypasses resistances too, so all that would show is that Mickey can bypass Young Xehanort's resistance, especially since as I already showed you in the original quote
"— Did King Mickey's time magic not work properly on Young Xehanort because Young Xehanort has the power to control time?
Nomura: Not Young Xehanort's but rather Master Xehanort's power. King Mickey was surprised at the time, seeing his Keyblade and noticing he harboured the power of Master Xehanort. That Keyblade was designed as the one Master Xehanort used in KHBBS combined with an hourglass, you see."
^Not only does this further prove that this is a far stronger Master Xehanort then the one you were trying to apply but also that Young Xehanort himself doesn't transcend time without Old Xehanort's powers. Now I don't want to be that guy that says "you haven't played this" but I'm wondering, what's your full knowledge on KH since you've clearly missed these points.
Jesus this took a bit to type.
>It is objectively impossible to read a tone of an argument (unless the person is making it perfectly clear), for all you know the person speaking in caps is laughing behind his screen out of joy, so again no reason to warn me about agressiveness when it never occured.
"No as I still called it transcending time in a fashion? Just that it was a time travel thing. I even showed you a character who has the exact same type of statement."
>How does that support your premise whatsoever? The character you showed once again is an appeal to authority, something you ignored in your previous comment, and you ignored the possiblity that the profile might just be straight up wrong.
"Yet, transcending time in the story blatantly means to time travel. Not that he as a being is beyond the concept of time and space itself. Just because one is stated to transcend time does not mean they are Low 2-C or Immeasurable automatically. That not how we treat things here. How do I know? Timemo has the same statement of transcending space and time. Not Low 2-C or Immeasurable. Dialga literally got his Immeasurable stat removed due to this not being enough information and it has more supporting Immeasurable speed than Xehanort. So let's say you are correct, it would still not support what you want it to."
>You're repeating yourself ad nauseum. I've already explained the context of how transcending time works, also where did I state he's beyond the concept of time and space? You can be beyond time and space and not be beyond it's concepts. Aka linear time and space. Or else characters that transcend the very concept should be High 2-A since they would view time and space as spatially flat. It's clear in both of the statements that in order to time travel in the verse you must transcend time and space. It's right there, refute that point instead of repeating "it's just referring to time travel". The only thing I see for Timemon is that he has an ability too, and as I've already explained it's an appeal to authority to try and argue because that one page does that my premise is automatically wrong. Also for Dialga, I... have no idea where you got that conclusion from, that's actually the complete opposite of why his immeasurable stat was removed. This thread shows they removed it because nothing remotely implied he goes beyond it or transcends it because he is time itself, so the logic falls under him being able to transcend himself.
"Immeasurable Speed: Comes from Dialga. This just makes zero sense. Dialga can't travel "beyond time" or "exceed time". That is like me saying I can travel "beyond myself" or "exceed myself". This doesn't work, while Infinite works better."
"Immeasurable: Dialga can't be beyond time. He is time. It was agreed last thread that all the scans prove is that Dialga has very versatile Time Travel. That is completely different than being beyond speed and time entirely."
"Dialga is omnipresent in his own realm alone and his physical self must time travel. He is infinite for being time, but being 4-D =/= transcending time itself and gaining Immeasurable speed."
"Being beyond conventional time is immeasurable. They aren't infinite because they can travel whenever; Dialga uses his time travel to pull that off. Their infinite feat isn't fighting in a shattered space-time continuum."
"You assume I knew how long you were typing your comment. And even if it's directed at someone else, it could answer something you would ask in your comment." >The point of that refute was that you've made a fallacious assumption to even delve into the idea that I saw the comment before replying, or else I would of simply not
"Which alone is not Low 2-C or Immeasurable."
>That's not a refute whatsoever. Prove why it's not I've already shown you the positive proof and you just restricted to "it's not".
"Except it proves our standards on the matter. If you want to change this standard, go ahead. That's what CRT's are for. But we aren't going to budge our standards because you want Low 2-C and Immeasurable Xehanort. Matter of fact, I'll happily make a thread for you. Or it's just that we don't just give one Immeasurable speed for "Transcending Time"."
>So you've outright ignored the appeal to authority and the fact that the speed page outright contradicts your "standards". Let's review the speed page once again:
"Immeasurable (Movement beyond linear time. This is why the speed cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed. For further information, see note 5 below.)"
Except you do use that as a justification for immeasurable speed, allow me to link the many profiles that outright contradict your timemon profile and it would end the same way. Difference is the profiles follow my correlation with what your speed page literally list.
Serge- "Immeasurable with the Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross (Allows him to exist beyond time and space)"
Evil Entity- "Immeasurable (A higher dimensional being who moves in the 4th and higher dimensions)"
Providence_(Bravely_Default)- "Immeasurable (Exists in a plane of existence above the space-time of Luxendarc, with the party's emotions and words resonating to both the player and the people of Luxendarc "across space and time")"
Just to refute some possible points I just foresee being used, if you try to use the argument it says "exist" the very definition of "exist" is having objective reality/being so all that would do is apply to Xehanort to.
"Xehanort is still visibly bound by linear time and causality or else he wouldn't have to go back in time and live out his life like everyone else. I feel like it's pretty obvious that transcending time is to refer to the general ability to time travel, as Young Xehanort (Clearly none of the other Seekers, which is also stated) is able to freely go through time, but clearly acknowledges that he must return to his time and live out his life, why that would be relevant to him if he transcended time I have no idea, nor why he would be limited by the laws of time. Further, Young Xehanort was unable to break out of Stopza of his own accord, why would that be a problem if he transcended time altogether?"
>How is he bound by linear time? He has acausality, and a lot of 4D and above characters on your wiki don't have acausality, so does this mean they too are affected by causality and should by extension be downgraded? He needed to go back in time prior to gaining the ability. You're applying a Xehanort who isn't even confirmed to have the power to transcend time and space at the time of the story and appyling it to where he's stated to have it. Mind you where do you see Old Xehanort remotely shown wanting a younger body again after he reappears in DDD? Also the literal quote from Nomura himself states Xehanort discards his form when he transcends time. So this is pure assumption. Young Xehanort gains the ability cause Xehanort teaches him it. Guess, I need to relink this quote yet again, "As a result of the actions of the Brown Robed Figure, they all were in a state where they had gained the power to transcend time." You've clearly once again misrepresented Young Xehanort's actions, he was referring to the fact that the host body Xehanort brought apart of his true orgnization has died therefore he'd be discarded back to the past and no longer have the power that his old self gave him. Yes one would be limited by the laws, just because you transcend space and time does not correlate to transcending laws. I have no idea where you got this ideal from. Transcending time =/= transcending laws. I hope you know in the KH verse that stopza is one of the most powerful forms of time magic and a weaker time magic, aka lethal frame can outright bypass ones resistance to time magic is shown right on Sora's profile. I remember someone already saying Aqua has time magic that bypasses resistances too, so all that would show is that Mickey can bypass Young Xehanort's resistance, especially since as I already showed you in the original quote
"— Did King Mickey's time magic not work properly on Young Xehanort because Young Xehanort has the power to control time?
Nomura: Not Young Xehanort's but rather Master Xehanort's power. King Mickey was surprised at the time, seeing his Keyblade and noticing he harboured the power of Master Xehanort. That Keyblade was designed as the one Master Xehanort used in KHBBS combined with an hourglass, you see."
^Not only does this further prove that this is a far stronger Master Xehanort then the one you were trying to apply but also that Young Xehanort himself doesn't transcend time without Old Xehanort's powers. Now I don't want to be that guy that says "you haven't played this" but I'm wondering, what's your full knowledge on KH since you've clearly missed these points.
Jesus this took a bit to type.
- 32,343
- 20,268
I see absolutely no reason whatsoever for Immeasurable speed. Not only do the feats not indicate it in any way it is hugely inconsistent with the setting at large.
