Pokemon: God Tiers Ability Revisions Part 2

Since the previous thread went nowhere, i am redoing thread again, by reposting Assalt's arguments, hopefully this thread can lead to some conclusions:

Overall
Everything in here is just a misconception of the powers of all the Pokemon God Tiers and is pervasive throughout most or all of their profiles.

Conceptual Manipulation: This is probably the biggest offender here. The Creation Trio have never shown the ability to manipulate their concept. They embody it, but they do not destroy/attack conceptually. Same for Arceus, but he only created them and doesn't embody them.

Void Manipulation: What Palkia, Dialga, and Arceus all show is Space-Time destruction. They do not use a Void to achieve this, they simply use powers they have already displayed to destroy space-time and thus objects within it. This is not separate Void Manipulation. Even if it was some kind of extra erasure, it would be Existence Erasure, not Void Manipulation.

Immortality: Type 4 for all, Type 9 for Arceus. They are not gods; they are Pokemon with god-like powers. They are never called gods by anyone other than star-struck humans, nor ever hinted at being immortal because of such a title.

Immunity to Soul Manipulation: It was never stated that any of the CT "predate souls" to my knowledge. Also, even if they did, they likely still obtained one when such souls came into being. But I still ask for the "predating souls" part, since I don't remember Pokemon ever referencing souls.

Causality Manipulation & Acausality: "Distorting natural law" needs to be put into context here. The CT using their powers to distort the world is not causality manipulation. It is just Space, Time, and Antimatter manipulation, respectively. Causality or causal progression is never broken, and Arceus is directly subject to causality, as shown by the entire plot of Arceus and the Jewel of Life.

"Spirit" Destruction: Lumping Knowledge, Will, and Emotion destruction into one. Basically, no. Dialga and Palkia have the ability to "make a world without spirit" and "destroy spirit". Why can they do this? By destroying life and consciousness. This is simply universal destruction that ends all life, not any special "spirit"-attacking ability.

Immeasurable Speed: Comes from Dialga. This just makes zero sense. Dialga can't travel "beyond time" or "exceed time". That is like me saying I can travel "beyond myself" or "exceed myself". This doesn't work, while Infinite works better.

Arceus
I'm sorry llama-god. Time to step down.

Power Nullification: The parts from the TCG abilities are fine. However, I don't remember anything implying it made Destiny Tower.

Non-Corporeality: Never shown. Unlike the CT, which have shown Non-Corporeal Forms, I don't think Arceus, even with all its plates, has shown this.

Dream Manipulation: Never implied to be the "booming voice". This is speculation, not implication. Arceus is never mentioned here.

Use of All Moves: Absolutely never shown. Not shown in movies/anime and its in-game movepool reflects this fact. I don't know where this comes from outside of speculation.

Resistance to Telepathy: "Resisted the Telepathic abilities of Sheena and her ancestor." I should hope so? A 4-D character resists 3-D hax by default. If Arceus had bee hurt by this there would be a problem.

Magnetism Manipulation: Was it stated that Arceus himself made the Mountain Magnetic? This seems to be a natural property.

Darkness Manipulation: What "darkness" attack is this? Foul Play? Nothing is elaborated on here.

Mind, Memory, Will, Empathic, and Illusion Manipulation: Has he ever used the Lake Trio's abilities?

Information Manipulation: See above and see the Lake Trio's section.

Law Manipulation: No. Unless literally every creator god gets this, neither does Arceus. He makes space and time. This happens for all creators.

Physics Manipulation: No reasoning whatsoever is given here.

Power Mimicry/Absorption: When he has taken someone's powers from them and put them into a plate?

Chaos Manipulation/Embodiment: Spawning into/from primordial chaos =/= embodying it, nor has Arceus used it.

Attacks Incorporeals: His Omnipotent ability lets him hit all types, including Ghost. But unless we give all Pokemon, save normal types, this ability, Arceus doesn't get it either.

Resistance to Power Mimicry: This is 100% game mechanics. Abilities that would otherwise break the game cannot be copied, and thus Multitype falls into this. Also Silvally should never be mentioned. RKS System is never tied directly to Arceus, even though it sounds the same. A cheeky nod to the intention? Sure. A legit comparison/indication? No.

Palkia/Dialga
These two are similar enough that I can tackle them together, though they do have some individual differences.

Non-Corporeality: This only applies when they are not in their avatars. Their avatar forms are perfectly corporeal.

Palkia - Healing Negation: Massive NLF here. Heal Block, at best, stops Deoxys' Recover, which is Low-Mid (High-Mid not applicable here since that takes a ton of time and is not the move Recover).

Most other significant issues fall into the Overall section.

Giratina
Non-Corporeality: See Palkia/Dialga.

Resistance to Mind Manipulation: The Red Chains were not used on Giratina if I recall correctly. The Capture Stylus needs context and could easily be similar to the Red Chains or be merely game mechanics.

Power Nullification: Shadow Force doesn't belong here. Shadow Force allows Giratina to disappear and leave the physical world temporarily, which allows attacks and effects to miss. This isn't special nullification. The other two abilities here, however, are legit.

Power Negation: A new world can't be made because Giratina just interferes. He doesn't have some special power to make this impossible outright.

Destroying Things in the Distortion World: Literally just Dialga glowing as evidence.

Physics Manipulation: See Arceus.

Lake Trio
These three are close together, and I'm trying to not have 10 sections. Pretty much zero explanations for all of these abilities, but let's look at the big offenders. I'm just going to list these off, since it's basically just "no evidence" for all of them. Please remember, anything that applies to these guys in "Overall" should be noted here.

Mesprit: Power Mimicry, Reality Warping, and Soul Manipulation.

Azelf: Reality Warping and Soul Manipulation.

Uxie: Reality Warping, Information Manipulation, Telepathy (not a gripe on justification but the evidence picture has a solid 10 pixels), Endure (massive NLF here and needs a major explanation), and Soul Manipulation.

Conclusion
Things need a big clean-up. Ranging from lack of justification, misinterpretation, or exaggeration of an existing ability, these guys need some serious love.

They would also be subject to the new Concept Manipulation standards, falling under Type 3, and any new standards agreed upon with the Abstract Existence thread.

How dare you post Assalt's arguments but not mine? ovo

Would be too much to post in the op, posting it here.

Cal's rebuttal:

Overall
Conceptual Manipulation: This is probably the biggest offender here. The Creation Trio have never shown the ability to manipulate their concept. They embody it, but they do not destroy/attack conceptually. Same for Arceus, but he only created them and doesn't embody them.

• I actually agree with this one. Except for Arceus, who's been shown to shape a portion the already created concepts of time and space and antimatter into another Dialga, Palkia, and/or Giratina. Furthermore, I personally beleive it's a matter of it being what makes the most sense. Palkia exists as the concept of space? Check. Palkia has a stupid degree of spatial manipulation? Check. Most people would associate the two. Plus, pretty sure no one has ever used it as a means to say that they can f*** with their respective concepts, but to the degree of the abilities they've shown.

Void Manipulation: What Palkia, Dialga, and Arceus all show is Space-Time destruction. They do not use a Void to achieve this, they simply use powers they have already displayed to destroy space-time and thus objects within it. This is not separate Void Manipulation. Even if it was some kind of extra erasure, it would be Existence Erasure, not Void Manipulation.

• Read the manga. Dialga and Palkia explicitly create a void when they're fighting, and it continues to expand.

Immortality: Type 4 for all, Type 9 for Arceus. They are not gods; they are Pokemon with god-like powers. They are never called gods by anyone other than star-struck humans, nor ever hinted at being immortal because of such a title.

• Outright false. I don't even think I need to go into detail on this one.

Immunity to Soul Manipulation: It was never stated that any of the CT "predate souls" to my knowledge. Also, even if they did, they likely still obtained one when such souls came into being. But I still ask for the "predating souls" part, since I don't remember Pokemon ever referencing souls.

• The Lake Trio created the souls of the multiverse. The Creation Trio come before that. Also, souls are so common in Pokemon that it's not even funny.

Causality Manipulation & Acausality: "Distorting natural law" needs to be put into context here. The CT using their powers to distort the world is not causality manipulation. It is just Space, Time, and Antimatter manipulation, respectively. Causality or causal progression is never broken, and Arceus is directly subject to causality, as shown by the entire plot of Arceus and the Jewel of Life.

• I don't know where you got "natural" law from, because the profiles state causal law. That comes from those textdumps that were released on the JP website. I had Reppu translate it for me for extra measure. Acausality comes from a number of things. Arceus lolnope'ing the events of PMD2, whatever's on Giratina's profile about it, every one of them no-selling the side effects to their causal law distorting basic attacks.

"Spirit" Destruction: Lumping Knowledge, Will, and Emotion destruction into one. Basically, no. Dialga and Palkia have the ability to "make a world without spirit" and "destroy spirit". Why can they do this? By destroying life and consciousness. This is simply universal destruction that ends all life, not any special "spirit"-attacking ability.

• Except that's very much your interpretation of this instead of going off of what's said, and this is contradicted due to Cyrus in US/UM not being disappointed of the existence of other humans, but of the show of "spirit". Granted, Ever convinced me that "spirit" only means emotion.
• Actually, given the other usages of the word when it involves them, literally can't mean emotion, because people don't exist yet, I can't even agree to that.

Immeasurable Speed: Comes from Dialga. This just makes zero sense. Dialga can't travel "beyond time" or "exceed time". That is like me saying I can travel "beyond myself" or "exceed myself". This doesn't work, while Infinite works better.

• So abstracts who are time can't be immeasurable? Better downgrade Multi-Eternity.

Arceus
I'm sorry llama-god. Time to step down.

Power Nullification: The parts from the TCG abilities are fine. However, I don't remember anything implying it made Destiny Tower.

• I can debate this one, but I can see where you're coming from there.

Non-Corporeality: Never shown. Unlike the CT, which have shown Non-Corporeal Forms, I don't think Arceus, even with all its plates, has shown this.

• Also false. Arceus exists as a spirit, and the llama is just a physical avatar.

Dream Manipulation: Never implied to be the "booming voice". This is speculation, not implication. Arceus is never mentioned here.

• Heavy implications. If you could find another Pokemon who can believably invade dreams, talk to humans, knows Hyper Voice, and knows stuff about Darkrai, then sure.

Use of All Moves: Absolutely never shown. Not shown in movies/anime and its in-game movepool reflects this fact. I don't know where this comes from outside of speculation.

• Again, read the manga. Cyrus holds up plates, and Arceus uses moves of said types. And correct me if I'm wrong, but Arceus doesn't learn any Grass- or Electric- type moves via level up. Consistent with lore as well, given this is the creator of the concept of types.

Resistance to Telepathy: "Resisted the Telepathic abilities of Sheena and her ancestor." I should hope so? A 4-D character resists 3-D hax by default. If Arceus had bee hurt by this there would be a problem.

• Except it worked on Dialga (or was it Giratina?)

Magnetism Manipulation: Was it stated that Arceus himself made the Mountain Magnetic? This seems to be a natural property.

• Arceus made the mountain, the mountain is magnetic. It's putting two and two together.

Darkness Manipulation: What "darkness" attack is this? Foul Play? Nothing is elaborated on here.

• Punishment

Mind, Memory, Will, Empathic, and Illusion Manipulation: Has he ever used the Lake Trio's abilities?

• They're facets of him, just like the Creation Trio.

Information Manipulation: See above and see the Lake Trio's section.

• See above there too.

Law Manipulation: No. Unless literally every creator god gets this, neither does Arceus. He makes space and time. This happens for all creators.

• I added it due to some line off of Bulbapedia, stating that he did this, but you're probably right here.

Physics Manipulation: No reasoning whatsoever is given here.

• Distortion World is stated to have warped physics. Arceus created the Distortion World.

Power Mimicry/Absorption: When he has taken someone's powers from them and put them into a plate?

• "The power of defeated giants infuses this plate."

Chaos Manipulation/Embodiment: Spawning into/from primordial chaos =/= embodying it, nor has Arceus used it.

• Given that Arceus isn't considered nonexistent, you're right.

Attacks Incorporeals: His Omnipotent ability lets him hit all types, including Ghost. But unless we give all Pokemon, save normal types, this ability, Arceus doesn't get it either.

• Except we give it to anyone who learns Foresight.

Resistance to Power Mimicry: This is 100% game mechanics. Abilities that would otherwise break the game cannot be copied, and thus Multitype falls into this. Also Silvally should never be mentioned. RKS System is never tied directly to Arceus, even though it sounds the same. A cheeky nod to the intention? Sure. A legit comparison/indication? No.

• Except the RKS System is. Check the notes in Sun and Moon. It is game mechanics though, so I agree with you there.

Palkia/Dialga
Non-Corporeality: This only applies when they are not in their avatars. Their avatar forms are perfectly corporeal.

• Again, you're right.

Palkia - Healing Negation: Massive NLF here. Heal Block, at best, stops Deoxys' Recover, which is Low-Mid (High-Mid not applicable here since that takes a ton of time and is not the move Recover).

• Firstly, pretty sure all four of them have this. Secondly, Starmie, Muk, and Cryogonal all say hi to High-Mid regen taking a ton of time.

Most other significant issues fall into the Overall section.

Giratina
Non-Corporeality: See Palkia/Dialga.

• Ghost type, man...

Resistance to Mind Manipulation: The Red Chains were not used on Giratina if I recall correctly. The Capture Stylus needs context and could easily be similar to the Red Chains or be merely game mechanics.

• I don't have enough context myself to answer this. However, all three should have resistance to mind manipulation, as the Lake Trio can't control a single member of the Creation Trio without all being present, and can't control two members of the Creation Trio at all.

Power Nullification: Shadow Force doesn't belong here. Shadow Force allows Giratina to disappear and leave the physical world temporarily, which allows attacks and effects to miss. This isn't special nullification. The other two abilities here, however, are legit.

• TCG!Shadow Force negates after the attack though.

Power Negation: A new world can't be made because Giratina just interferes. He doesn't have some special power to make this impossible outright.

• I didn't even know he had this.

Destroying Things in the Distortion World: Literally just Dialga glowing as evidence.

• Major plot in Giratina's movie is that destroying things in the DW affects its IRL counterpart. The image used to justify is indeed ***** though.

Physics Manipulation: See Arceus.

• Yeah. See Arceus.

Lake Trio
Mesprit: Power Mimicry, Reality Warping, and Soul Manipulation.

• Power Mimicry, learns Copycat. Reality Warping, give me time. Soul Manipulation, created the souls of the multiverse.

Azelf: Reality Warping and Soul Manipulation.

• See above.

Uxie: Reality Warping, Information Manipulation, Telepathy (not a gripe on justification but the evidence picture has a solid 10 pixels), Endure (massive NLF here and needs a major explanation), and Soul Manipulation.

• Reality Warping, see above. Information Manipulation, what do you think knowledge is? Soul manipulation, see above.

Giratina isnt non-corporeal even if its a ghost type.

Like,I cant punch giratina but a random flame can burn it?

Void Manipulation in that context is Space-Time destruction.

Should i highlight this? It's fairly important and i want to see this concluded.

Celestial Pegasus said:

Should i highlight this? It's fairly important and i want to see this concluded.

Click to expand...

Yes, please.

PaChi2 said:

Giratina isnt non-corporeal even if its a ghost type.
Like,I cant punch giratina but a random flame can burn it?

Click to expand...

Limited intangibility then. Simple as that.

Also, Giratina's true form is Antimatter, not a centipede thingy. It's physical form can loose it but I think it should obviously gain non-corpoerality for the former instead of the latter.

Stay on topic please, already went through an entire thread and got nothing, no memes or derailing here, just input on the topic at hand, sure as hell not letting this not be resolved in this thread.

Well, I have read both Assalt's and Cal's arguments above, and Cal does seem to have good rebuttals in some of them and agree with others. The suggested changes for which both of them agree can probably be carried out in any case.

I agree with Celestial Pegasus's debunks and evaluations

Iapitus The Impaler said:

I agree with Celestial Pegasus's debunks and evaluations

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Celestial didn't make those, Cal did. And the previous thread goes further to explain why some of those debunks don't work.

I haven't made any argument for either side, just reposted arguments from Assal and Cal.

I just want to see this revision come to a conclusion.

@Assalt

Can you summarise why some of the debunks don't work please?

So far Cal has agreed with Assalt that:

• Arceus shouldn't have Law Manipulation, Chaos Manipulation/Embodiment.

• Palkia and Dialga are only Non-corporeal when they aren't in their avatar forms.

The other stuff has to be debated.

Okay. Feel free to apply the agreed changes then.

Actually, Cal never agreed or disagreed with Power Negating being taken from Giratina, he just said he didnt know it was there.

Ok.

the creation trio was born before Mesprit, Azalf and Uxie, who created the spirit

and it was never implied, as far as i know, that the creation trio gained as soul, but even then considering they existed without it, they don't need it to live

And correct me if I'm wrong, but Arceus doesn't learn any Grass- or Electric- type moves via level up.
Not really a good analogy - Arceus level-up movepool is actually kinda meh. About half of it is Normal-type moves, plus few Psychic-type moves, and a single Fighting-, Dark- and Ground-type moves.

If you count the other means to learn moves, then the only type it has no moves of is Fairy (outside of Pixie Plate Judgment).

Arceus should have all Pokemon powers, not just moves. Since all Pokemon powers also reside in Plates and everything is a part of the Original Spirit.

Arceus movepool is pure game mechanic. (Also he already use capacity who aren't in his movepool, like Protect in the Jewel of Life).

I think the Immortalities should be kept. The Elder of Celestic Town refers to them as being deities and their godhood status honestly shouldn't be questioned since they are literally the Gods of Creation. And before there is a confusion of "they considered them deities", keep in mind that the Creation Trio aren't actively engaged in the Pokemon World. It would make sense why they don't have that same remembrance since they really don't come into contact with Sinnoh all that often. Also, Type 9 for Arceus should stay as well. It's stated in the Original Story that Arceus came from a manifestation of the Original Spirit. It's a manifested version on a lower plane of existence. I don't even know why there is doubt here, to begin with.

I think we should keep Immunity to Soul Manipulation. The Original Story has them make creation first, then the Lake Trio actively make spirit (souls). There's absolutely no proof that they gained souls afterward and it's an unsubstantiated point. Also, there is the description of Palkia being alive yet not alive at the same time. I'm pretty sure it used to be used for Type 5 Immortality for Palkia, but it was dropped in favor of it being a supporting piece of evidence to them being soulless. Palkia being alive would be the fact it obviously is as it has an independent will, but it lacks a soul which is supposed to make you "you". Overall, there's absolutely no reasoning that is good for this being dropped at all.

Immeasurable should stay as well. I'm pretty sure that the profile just has this awkwardly worded is all. There's the fact it can freely travel through time and the statements of Dialga practically being beyond time. I don't know why they wouldn't be Immeasurable. It's not inconsistent with their showings and should make sense for Cal's reasoning.

Resistance to Telepathy should stay. It has worked on Dialga before meaning it can affect Creation Trio members. Also, I don't know if this means anything specifically, but she says "Transcend the confines of time and space" when she uses the ability to attempt to communicate with them. It might be a throwaway line, but you get the idea that it should stay.

Also, attempts at trying to rid the Lake Trio's abilities from Arceus should also be ignored. The Original Story has them specifically being made from it.

Cal's reasonings are otherwise satisfactory in responding to Assalt's stuff. I was just adding onto stuff he didn't really have much elaboration on though.

"Arceus created the Distortion World"

But... This was probably a mistake, but Physics Manip still gets chained to Arceus from Giratina regardless.

Just a general question, why do the Creation Trio not have Abstract Existence? If they are the embodiment of their concepts idealized on a conceptual scale across the Multiverse, how would they not have it?

Inverted Tempest said:

"Arceus created the Distortion World"
But... This was probably a mistake, but Physics Manip still gets chained to Arceus from Giratina regardless.

Click to expand...

Cyrius later said that Giratina is the Distortion World. Arceus create Giratina, so I don't think it's wrong.

YuriAkuto said:

Cyrius later said that Giratina is the Distortion World. Arceus create Giratina, so I don't think it's wrong.

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That's not what I meant. Cal said Arceus created the Distortion World, but Giratina is the one who made it. I was just correcting it to avoid possible confusion. I didn't say Arceus didn't have it, I just said it got chained down.

@Inverted Tempest

Immortalities: I mean I guess this stems from Type 4 being completely pointless in the first place. Type 9 Arceus definitely shouldn't stay since the majority of people agreed that Arceus is just literally the Original Spirit, not some kind of seperate entitity.

Soul Manip Immunity: Spirit =/= souls. At all honestly. Spirit in Pokemon is Knowledge, Will, and Emotion. This is not the same as a soul.

Immeasurable: Dialga can't be beyond time. He is time. It was agreed last thread that all the scans prove is that Dialga has very versatile Time Travel. That is completely different than being beyond speed and time entirely.

The rest of this you don't really even give reasons as to why you think I'm wrong other than just assuming I'm wrong.

The real cal howard said:

Magnetism Manipulation: I can make a magnet. That doesn't give me magnetism manipulation. The way he made it matters, and we don't know that.
>You and I both know you can't make a magnet.

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I just read up on the previous thread and I'm sorry but this made me laugh

So:

• Type 4 immortality should stay
• Type 9 should go cause arceus is the original spirit
• Spirit =/=soul, but this is probably going to be further argued
• Dialga time travel's instead of through his own speed? And instead is time, would that make him infinite instead of immeasurable? This is probably going to be further argued too.

Ghost literally means Soul without a body; and there are multiple definitions of Spirit, soul is just one of many. But Assalt's right that it could include subconsciousness, essence, will power, ect.

Ghosts that have physical bodies (ectoplasm or the like) aren't just raw souls.

Even if they were, there isn't any evidence that The Lake Trio are the creators of the souls themselves, but rather just Willpower, Emotion, and Knowledge.

I do want to see the discussion on Immeasurable. Also has it been accepted already that Arceus' concept hax is just and the CT's is embodiment?

Arceus' concept hax is what?

Just. As in fair or acceptable.

@Assalt. Yes.

Celestial Pegasus said:

Arceus' concept hax is what?

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His "Concept hax" is just creating the Creation Trio and the Lake Trio.

also Arceus can create another Palkia and Dilga without messing up the multiverse

So just creating conceptual embodiments, ok.

Has removing immunity to soul manipulation being agreed upon? Assalt thinks spirit =/= soul.

There's something else I wanted to say. Disclaimer, I brought it up with Kep in private and he doesn't think there's enough evidence of it.

Giratina and the Distortion World can exist separately from each other despite the Distortion World literally being Giratina. Furthermore, in Platinum, we see Dialga and Palkia's physical forms able to exist separately from the dimensions that they embody, even if caught.

I think the physical avatar stuff doesn't just apply to Arceus if their omnipresent selves and their physical selves can be separate.

Yeah I meant "just Creation". My mind was outpacing my fingers.

I still think we're going too far up our own behinds with so much distinction in each and every power.

@Cal

Create a thread for it, then. For powers that are completely unquantifiable by conventional means we have to be clear about what they can do. Conceptual hax is extremely variable and assuming it can do more than what is shown isn't a good practice.