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King Hassan's Tier II

You can't really scale Gramps to anyone in Camelot. He was holding aaaall the way back. He was just doing Chaldea a favor in exchange for Cursed Arm's head, was he not? He said it himself that it wasn't his place to deal with the Singularity, it was theirs. (Them being Chaldea)
 
Hassan's hax has already been compared to Eyes of Death Perception if I remember right.

Reminder that those don't care about Dura. If you trace the lines of death, even if you don't harm the object, it gets cut.

However I don't really care about this too much and the Grands were made to fight the beasts anyway, so whatever is chosen is whatever.
 
I mean didn't gramp slapped Gawain around like a fool and than Gawain this a full Excalibur Galatine blast at him under the sun and powered by Lancer Arturia just to have completely failed because Gramps just back handed it with his cap.

That makes him obviously above sun buff gawain and I doubt Arturia would have stood a chance against him because with no haxes Gawain was just a walk in the park.
 
Arthuria only made it so that it's always sunlit so he can always have his numeral of the saint, nothing more.

How he would fare against Arthuria, whether this is accepted or not, is not really relevan though.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
Hassan's hax has already been compared to Eyes of Death Perception if I remember right.
Reminder that those don't care about Dura. If you trace the lines of death, even if you don't harm the object, it gets cut.
Click to expand...
The comparison with MEoDP was only ever a fan-thing if I remember correctly (unless Shiki has lines addressing it). We just know that KH's killing has very similar effects, but not the same methodology, which is where the MEoDP's dura-negation comes from.
 
Ritsuka says the line "it's like MEoDP" or something to that effect when Bediverse explains how Hassan kills people via their fate.
 
Monarch Laciel said:
Ritsuka says the line "it's like MEoDP" or something to that effect when Bediverse explains how Hassan kills people via their fate.
Click to expand...
Ahhh yeah I think I remember that! It was during the Camelot Singularity, right?
 
I mean he as something similar to it but it's not Meodp Differing from his successors, the Old Man of the Mountain terminates his targets not by imposing physical harm, but by severing 'fate' itself by way of an ability similar to the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception
 
AshenCrow777 said:
I mean he as something similar to it but it's not Meodp Differing from his successors, the Old Man of the Mountain terminates his targets not by imposing physical harm, but by severing 'fate' itself by way of an ability similar to the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception
Click to expand...
Okay, so would the durability neg come from killing fate as opposed to chopping hip the opponent? Or would it has durability neg for a different reason?
 
The MEoDP's durability neg came from cutting the lines that directly represented the target's concept of death.

King Hassan's exact methods are unknown, just that he achieves similar effects based purely off of outside observation, and KH himself never elaborates.

To make it easier to imagine the difference, I'll explain each one's applications based on what we know.

The Mystic Eyes of Death Perception erase the existence inherent to the line or point of death that was cut. Using a line of death, if an arm was cut off, reality interprets it as there never having been an arm attached to the leftover stump since the conceptualization of the owner's existence. There's nothing to heal, no matter what the profusely bleeding stump makes one think. Using the point of death, all the lines attached to the point are "cut" at the same time. Piercing the point of death, which serves as the source of the target's entire existence, would unravel that existence entirely, making it so that reality effectively forgets that the target ever existed.

King Hassan's killing erases the continued existence of a target or concept. Everything has a beginning and end, so long as it exists and has a concept of death. A person is fated to live, so they are born. One day they are fated to stop, be it through age, injury or other supernatural cause, and so they die. King Hassan's ability is to take something's personal "timeline" and cut it short, such that the "end of their fate" comes at the exact point that Hassan chooses. The person dies not because he was killed, but because he physically and metaphysically cannot live past that point.

Cutting the lines of death with the MEoDP is the same as cutting through the conceptual weak points in an object's existence, where there is zero resistance, thus why it's durability negation.

Cutting the object's fate is more metaphysical, and has no effect on King Hassan's actual striking, due to him being able to cut fate without actually cutting anything.
 
Solacis said:
The MEoDP's durability neg came from cutting the lines that directly represented the target's concept of death.

King Hassan's exact methods are unknown, just that he achieves similar effects based purely off of outside observation, and KH himself never elaborates.

To make it easier to imagine the difference, I'll explain each one's applications based on what we know.

The Mystic Eyes of Death Perception erase the existence inherent to the line or point of death that was cut. Using a line of death, if an arm was cut off, reality interprets it as there never having been an arm attached to the leftover stump since the conceptualization of the owner's existence. There's nothing to heal, no matter what the profusely bleeding stump makes one think. Using the point of death, all the lines attached to the point are "cut" at the same time. Piercing the point of death, which serves as the source of the target's entire existence, would unravel that existence entirely, making it so that reality effectively forgets that the target ever existed.

King Hassan's killing erases the continued existence of a target or concept. Everything has a beginning and end, so long as it exists and has a concept of death. A person is fated to live, so they are born. One day they are fated to stop, be it through age, injury or other supernatural cause, and so they die. King Hassan's ability is to take something's personal "timeline" and cut it short, such that the "end of their fate" comes at the exact point that Hassan chooses. The person dies not because he was killed, but because he physically and metaphysically cannot live past that point.

Cutting the lines of death with the MEoDP is the same as cutting through the conceptual weak points in an object's existence, where there is zero resistance, thus why it's durability negation.

Cutting the object's fate is more metaphysical, and has no effect on King Hassan's actual striking, due to him being able to cut fate without actually cutting anything.
Click to expand...
Wow, okay, thanks for clearing that up, I completely understand now
 
That really doesn't mean much. Balor's eyesight was called a more advanced version of the MEoDP and they worked at a distance, actualizing death with merely a single look.

With Tohno you also see that the lines are a simple step, and it goes deeper (not in the Female Shiki sense that she can understand and apply death to things more disconnected or more complex than normal human human death) in the 'dot' of death, which if Pierced, completely kills the totality of someone as it happens to Roa.

MEoPD is death manip, and beyond that isn't special. Or mainly, the fact that death is perceived as lines is not at all special. It just simply perceives death and that is how it shows itself (the fact it is described as the conceptual weak spots or something like that lends credence that it is something natural, not just how MEoPD interprets death). So King Hassan wields this much power deftly, can apply effects at a distance and can seemingly kill the totality of someone or something, both way advanced effects of the MEoPD. It feels really weird to think he couldn't perceive the lines, something way more basic.

... Actually, that reminds me. Does he cut the horn before or after applying the concept of her? I think it is before but correct me if wrong.
 
Tiamat's horn was broken off by either Ishtar or Quetzalcoatl. Speaking of the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception; an ability like that would not affect Tiamat seeing as she, at the time, had no concept of death. If Shiki were to look at Tiamat with the MEoDP, she would be the only thing in her line of sight without lines of death since "death" did not apply to her until Gramps forced the concept onto her. There was no "fated end" for Tiamat until Gramps gave her one with that sing. That swing just also happened to be aimed at her wings to stop her from leaving the underworld.

While I'm at it, I noticed King Hassan doesn't have Non-Physical Interaction on his profile. If he can 'kill' things that don't have physicl forms like concepts, shouldn't he have that ability? Shouldn't all servants? They DO fight actual ghosts in FGO.
 
None of that even matters because the differences between the methods are clear. Even if the MEoDP are inherently inferior, it does not mean that we can apply its own uinque hax to superior forms of death manip. Even then, King Hassan's imposition of the concept of death is not the same as his usual deathhax, so this entire argument is a moot point regardless.

Also, no, the MEoDP is not just standard death manip, it's conceptual existence erasure. Tohno Shiki killed the concept of "Nrvnqsr Chaos" to destroy him and his reality marble. The reason why Roa died permanently against him is because even his concept was erased, preventing him from reincarnating because the foundation of his existence no longer existed.
 
I mean, yeah she was submerged by it and came out just fine, but not sure I'd say she was "chilling" in there though lol
 
She was an actual goddess at the time I believe, based on the ascension art that was being used. She also mentioned something about united goddesses prior to using the attack I believe.
 
But, that was my point...? The MEoPD has no unique hax, it is just being able to perceive something's death.

Negating durability is just a convenient byproduct of seeing the conceptual weaknesses carried on by the inherent, inevitable death of things. Despite not having to interfere with any of the lines, Balor's gaze was considered a more advanced version of the MEoPDs instead of just a different ability that was more powerful, despite not interacting with the lines or the dot which are the main aspects of it.

And not really. Despite dying, we see his Chaos actually assimilated ans passed on to a normal person (don't remember where it was). Roa was because piercing the dot destroys everything, aa you yourself said, which also means his soul dies. His reincarnation hinges on his soul keeping all the memories that should be wiped clean and moving on to the next host he has chosen. If there's no soul, there's nothing.
 
Did anyone mention the very obvious fact that King Hassan, as Grand Assassin, had to kill the concepts of Time and Space to even be there to help out?

He became pals with the Protag in the SIXTH Singularity. Him showing up in the Seventh is already a frickin' miracle.

First, the difference in Time. He doesn't have Independent Manifestation, so that's what he has to do.

Then, the difference in Space. Wherever he was when he sensed that we needed help, it was FAR away from Babylon. And then there's the inconvient fact that it's, you know, a Singularity.
 
King Hassan DID Summon himself to Babylonia from wherever it is he ws before hand. It's just never explained how. He wanted to help the protagonist and he showed up to do it. Though, at the same time, it was said tht the conditions were right for him to appear in Babylonia from the start, so it was probably not something he could do at any time and go anywhere/when. Most likely it was because of the impending arrival of Beast II, and Grand Servants being meant to fend said beasts off.

Once again, still think that Gramps should scale to Tiamat as a Grand Servant.

Also, I'm still not 100% certain that invoking death on Tiamat was what caused him to lose his grand title. According to Merlin, King Hassan had already resolved to abandon that title to join Chaldea. I'm starting to think more and more that he abandoned the title to join the protagonist, and used the power that remained to invoke death and take Tiamat's wings off.
 
Well, in theory at least, by which I mean according to Fate canon, one Grand Servant gives you a fighting chance against a Beast, and all Seven against one is basically a guaranteed win.

Agree with the scaling thing. King Hassan is one of the most powerful Fate people to debut in FGO. (Somewhere deep in the little pieces, I'm sure there's some record of Kiara being scared of him)

King Hassan sacrificed his Grand title to not just imprint the concept of Death on Tiamat, but to carve it in. The preparations weren't done at the time, and I think it's implied Tiamat could recover from the imprinting if it wasn't so forceful. Taking her wings off was more of a physical attack, King Hassan needed to touch her, so might as well remove her means of escape.
 
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