King Hassan's Tier II

[Hun_Tiandi]

Eresh is the only one who ever did anything because her Authority in the underworld is at its peak. Roman confirmed her Saint Graph (Õƒ║, Reiki?, lit. "Spiritual Foundation") signature rapid dilating (Þå¿Õ╝Á, bouchou?, lit. "expanding / swelling") which gave her the Corpus of God (þÑ×Òü«õ¢ô, Kami no Karada?, lit. "Flesh of God")

Paradox Restoration should not work in the underworld, that was the point of pulling her down inside it. Tiamat just had more tricks up her sleeve.

Edit: Ninja'd.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

???

Ereshkigal: W-wha -! Romani: The Chaos Tide is corrupting the Underworld! This is bad, if this keeps up the underworld will be taken over by her! Also, what's with this reaction?! The spiritual core of Beast II is expanding. It's reverting back to the times of the Jurassic! This, this is no longer just the essence of the divine, but an undoubted divine body!

It's expanding. Localization says it's growing but it's the same point.

No mention of it dispersing unless your misinterpreting the whole "reverting back to the times of Jurassic".

@Ashen If you're not gonna read the second part, i have nothing to discuss with you then

Dude this is way past femme fatale being killed. Completely the wrong point in time.


Roman: "Amazing, you did it! Comfirming collapse of Tiamat's Spirit Origin! The magical reactor has also stopped! Your attacks defeated Tiamat, mud and all!. Now just wait for the ocean to return to normal, retrieve the Grail, and mission accomplished!

Gudao: We did it Mash!

Mash: Um Sempai, I had this feeling during the battle with Tiamat, but perhaps those restraints that tied her down... I think she made them herself.

Gudao: Tiamat was binding herself?

Mash: I can't be positive about this, but that's the only logical explanation. I mean, Tiamat was, well... She was voluntarily taking our attacks. As if she was giving us her life. We simply couldn't comprehend her intent... It seems TIamat was awakened by the power of the Holy Grail. But perhaps if the Lahum hadn't delievered the Holy Grail, she would have stayed in the ocean forever?

Quetz: Mash, even if that's true, it wouldn't change anything, no. Tiamat's mere existence is a Threat to Humanity. Whether she was dragged up by the Mage King, or lured out, we had to defeat her the moment she came to this worl-

[shit starts shaking]

Gudao: Doctor what's going on?! / Earthquake?!

Roman: Confirming reconstruction of Spirit Origin. No, transformation into a mega-structure post-dispersion, increasing scale... Impossible. Can there be such a creature? This is no longer a living being. This, this is -

Da Vinci: Water levels of the Persian Gulf are rising again! First wave reaching the coast in 5, 4, - Obersevation post sumerged! The tidal wave was directed, and its heading father onto land! THis is deliberate! It's planning to head straight to Uruk and swallow it all up!

Ishtar: Wait Seriously!? Can't we stop it!? Didn't we defeat Tiamat!?

Roman: Yeah, but we just made a huge mistake! What we defeated was just its brain! Everyone leave that airspace immediately! The real thing is surfacing from below!

[everyone stares in horror/awe as the real Tiamat jumps out of the ocean]

 

[Dysmity]

That "confirming reconstruction" thing was immediatly denied after it. Read from the "no" part

You also ignored a quote you posted too

Roman: Yeah, but we just made a huge mistake! What we defeated was just its brain! Everyone leave that airspace immediately! The real thing is surfacing from below!

They didn't get the real thing

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

They got the Femme Fatale, which was its brain.

And Roman never takes back his statement of the spirit origin being reconstructed, he simply says that what they got was the brain. The brain was still dispersed, and then reconstructed.

 

[Dysmity]

He does say reconstruction only for him to correct himself on that note hence why it states after that : . No, transformation into a mega-structure post-dispersion, increasing scale... Impossible. Can there be such a creature? This is no longer a living being. This, this is -

The no there is evident that he was wrong. She was transforming not reconstructing. I am talking about the Spirit Origin not the brain

Gonna be busy now so laters

 

[Hun_Tiandi]

[everyone stares in horror/awe as the real Tiamat jumps out of the ocean]

Yes, and the self-inflicted damage shoots upto 90% when this happens and she goes "batshit crazy".

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

No?

There is nothing in the entire cinematic that says she starts sealing herself more when she comes out. I invite you to find it if you think there is.

And besides, that happens literally once, by the time Hassan is there, there would be no more 90% damage.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I am with Hun and the other guy by the way.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

He does say reconstruction only for him to correct himself on that note hence why it states after that : . No, transformation into a mega-structure post-dispersion, increasing scale... Impossible. Can there be such a creature? This is no longer a living being. This, this is -
The no there is evident that he was wrong. She was transforming not reconstructing. I am talking about the Spirit Origin not the brain

Gonna be busy now so laters

"Transformation into a mega structure post dispersio"

He explicitly says "post dispersion", even after apparently "correcting" himself. Which means that the origin still dispersed.

 

[Hun_Tiandi]

It's more of the seal admonishing her because a) losing self-control & b) emerging from the sea.

Both are checked in this scenario. Going by the story only, then yeah, we might come to your conclusion. However, the material books makes this pretty clear.

Also, it does say for a moment, but we're not exactly whether this is referring to once per turn that was used for 50% damage just earlier. And I believe one turn was around 1 or 2 minutes going by Kiyo's interlude.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Ok it's true that the seal increasing to 90% thing happens in the mats so I missed it in the cutscenes.

But that raises two important points on its own

First, it was several hours between Tiamat going berserk and Hassan cutting off her wings, so the 90% thing can't have been active anymore because it only occurs once, when she left the water.

Second, taking damage does not reduce durability, so the seal dealing damage to her health does not in any way improve Hassan's ability to damage her, ergo he did so under his own power.

 

[Hun_Tiandi]

It hasn't actually been clarified to just be a one-time thing that occurs when she jumps out of the water. Her losing self-control is also one of the requirements. The mats only says that it happens for a moment, and if we are going by the previous context on 50% damage that's referring to once per turn which is around a few minutes. You might also be thinking getting rid of those chains alone closes off all her self-restrains, but remainder that the entry on Self-Sealing also says this:

Beast II, who has the role "mother" as her foundation, possesses a desire to function as a patron of humanity to the very end.

Although you could be right and it might just activate when both conditions are fulfilled. I think Dysmity was probably trying to say King Hassan's feats came in after Tiamat's own massive debuff + Merlin and Eresh.

King Hassan should scale to Tiamat in both Hax and AP, but it should be notified that it's a one time attack and he becomes a normal servant afterwards. Nasu said the strike itself was buffed by using up all the power in his Grand lvl SG. So when you take a moment to think about it, that was pretty much a super buffed version of KH's regular strikes that does both damage and has a chance of imposing death.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think Hun is making sense here.

 

[AshenCrow777]

Tiamat being in the underworld didn't change much because she still had enough power to make everyone else look like a joke Merlin said that whatever they did King hassan was basically crucial because she obviously had a lot of power to get out of the underworld and get free from enkindu.

I can't see why King Hassan can't have 2 keys one where he is a Grand servant with all the powers he has because GS are made to go up against beast's and the other one should be when loses is saint graph and is basically a normal servant.


Also Merlin himself Stat that king Hassan could have been there from the start In order to instill the concept of death into tiamat who is immortal. King Hassan gave up his Grand Assassin title as the cost for such a power. He summoned himself into babylonia because he took interest in the mc's personality/character. Also for the fact that the Chaldea master saved his people in camelot which he cannot do since grand servants are restricted in there actions by the counter force.

Is that correct?

He gave up his Grand Title to force a Concept of Death onto an actual Diety, according to Nasu. Tiamat was explicitly said to be immortal unless every other living thing was dead.

But has Grand servant he could have always Damage her since Grand servants are made to go up against beasts him losing is Saint graph was just to have a way to permanently put down Tiamat.

Because the purpose of Grand Servant is to counter the 7 Beast, that's why Merlin said "From the beginning, the condition were right for him to appear in this land.". King Hassan himself is actually in the Babylon from the beginning, but he wont help the protagonist until the protagonist is worthy enough for himself to forsake his Grand title.

Grand Servant spirit origin is equal to Beast spirit origin, to change Beast spirit origin to normal spirit origin, you need power equal to that change, aka downgrading Grand title to normal spirit origin.

Forcefully applying the concept of death was the real cost of him losing his saint but I believe he would have still been able to damage Tiamat when they say he had to use all of his powers they were more talking about changing the "system" of how Tiamat immortality function.

@Dysmity that was rude.

 

[AshenCrow777]

Also why is he only 7-A when he is said to be able to take on Lancer Arturia who is 6-B???? Hell he took on a lion King amped Gawain plus he was also sunbuff but still backhanded a full blast Excalibur Galatine with his cap why isn't he 6-C?

 

[ThatDarnFish]

Ba-Bump. Also I agree. If beasts are as powerful as they are, it makes no sense for Grand Servans to be infinitely weaker than them. Unless you need all 7 Grand Class servants to take on one beast, which still wouldn't give them a chance if they're all massively below the Beasts.

 

[Dysmity]

We were shown otherwise. If Grands are so supposedly powerful that they can take on Beasts then it wouldn't make sense for Gramps to go out of his way to sacrifice all of his power just slash a wing of Tiamat on top of concept hax

I am okay with an ap and hax scaling to Tiamat but with a note saying this is a one thing only and cannot be used again with the additional mention of the fact it weakens him to a normal servant level

This is my final post here

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Its not that Grands can take on a Beast by themselves but that they are able to actually affect them beyond hax. If its supposed to be 7 vs 1, the Grands can't be entirely hax based when Grand Saber will just be a bigger beamsword they need to burn their GSG just to affect the Beast who, going by your arguments, is nerfing itself (said Beast not even being the strongest, physically, resistance or hax wise).

 

[ThatDarnFish]

Ba-Bump

 

[Solacis]

An excerpt from Chaldea Ace Creators' Interview:
Nasu: "I'll grant you the concept of death…" Well, as a Grand, he'd have to do at least this much! (laugh)
Shimazaki: At that time I thought, "Now we can win!". Everything so far was focused on this development. No matter if it was the CGs or the BGM, they were all too awesome! And it turns out that the reason he came to help was because of the bond made during the 6th singularity… it really felt like everything on this journey has been bound together tightly! But, there's something I'm curious about. The strike that granted Tiamat the concept of death, was it a result of his powers as the Grand Assassin after all?

Nasu: Personally, I feel that joining Chaldea means that you must throw away the right to being a Grand that exists for the sake of saving all mankind. Still, even after discarding that position, the strength of King Hassan's Saint Graph itself is still Grand-class. It doesn't mean that once he loses his Grand position and becomes a normal Assassin, his Saint Graph would immediately lose power. So, by using all the might in that superb Saint Graph, the strike that "granted the concept of death" could be performed. And afterwards, King Hassan's Saint Graph became that of a normal Servant's.
Essentially, King Hassan's power, up to the point where he imposed the concept of death on Tiamat, was the power he constantly wields as a Grand Servant. Anything after that is him as a regular Servant.

Romani:
The spiritual core expansion has stopped, and the magical reactor cores, are continuously being rebooted!

The injures sustained as it fell into the underworld is being healed!

It's appearing! It's the -

(Tiamat's art)

That's the true form of Beast II!

The imposition of the concept of death goes hand-in-hand with the strike itself, so the AP of King Hassan as a Grand scales to Tiamat's draconic form. He won't scale completely, since her Self-Sealing is still at work, but at the same time, she had begun regenerating to full health by the time she entered her true form - which is the one that King Hassan struck.

 

[Vayonator]

Why does he loses his GS status? Because he decided to intervine and be able join Chaldea. Not because he made her mortal, but because he intervined. If his intervention had been something like stabbing her heart, he still would have lost ot (however that wouldn't do anything because she was immortal).
So: Imposing death status on a Tiamat makes his HAX at least 2-A and not a one-time feat. As a Grand Servant, he can and will impose the concept of death on anything that has the level of power of Tiamat, but if he does that without permission, he loses his Grand Servant status.
So, according to this interpratation:
Both his HAX AND his AP are of Tiamat's level.

 

[ThatDarnFish]

It took "all the might in that superb Saint Graph" to let the Strike that imosed death be possible. Even if it is a one time thing for his hax, the biggest counterpoint from the old thread was that strike ignored Tiamat's durability. Was it a one time amp to his AP, or can he pull that kind of damage regardless of using up his SG? Even if he didn't expend his SG to force the concept of death on Tiamat, would he still be able to physically harm her? Personally, I think he would have, but fat lot of good it would do with her immortality. Even if he took off her head.

Lol. He should have gone for the head with that strike..

 

[Hun_Tiandi]

@Vayonator

That has already been addressed in this thread. Him losing the position of Grand and then him losing Saint Graph on the level of grands were two seperate events.

 

[Solacis]

There's no evidence to even suggest that his slash bypassed durability. All we were told is that his slash imposed the concept of death and took off her wing. The only thing that vaguely supports the idea of it bypassing durability is that his "killing" works similarly to the MEoDP, which do bypass durability, but even that's just an assumption. Even then, his slash that imposed the concept of death is completely different from his regular "killing", so I see no reason to just assume.

"All the might in that superb Saint Graph" doesn't necessarily mean he has to sacrifice it for that level of power. It could just as easily mean that it took his greatest effort to pull it off while he still had access to the aforementioned Saint Graph's power.

The way I see it, King Hassan's AP was what cleaved through the wing, and his hax was imposing the concept of death and nothing more. The hax doesn't bypass durability, since there has been no evidence to even suggest it does.

 

[Hun_Tiandi]

No evidence besides the fact it was that one slash which imposed the concept of death and sliced off her wing, both that happened at the same time and weren't isolated feats. Not sure how those two are different without you giving us any elaboration why that is the case. He gets death manipulation on his casual sword strikes in general because of this skill:

At The Boundary A

The sword of this individual who continues to walk within the boundary of the Valley, is said to add an instant death effect to every attack.

Although the probability is low, it presents a danger of dying instantly, no matter how formidable the enemy might be.

Those in the Valley are familiar with Death and are one with it, acquiring a resistance to instant death and fear.

When taking the form of a Servant, the rank is lowered to A since he is leaving the boundary by himself.

Instant death immunity, charm immunity and the addition of instant death effect to normal attacks.

It is exactly because he is one with Death that Merlin states makes him Tiamat's predator.

Merlin: That is a being that is yet to to know Fear (µüɵÇû, Kyoufu?) -- yet to know the meaning of Predatio (Õñ®µòÁ, Tenteki?, lit. "natural enemy / predator").
She is yet to know the Death (死, Shi?) that He Is Become.

Ziusudra:
Though the Station of the Crown is to me unnecessary, there dwells within this blade the Proof of the Strongest (µ£ÇÕ╝ÀÒü«Þ¿╝, Saikyou no Akashi?).

The skill simply depowers as a regular servant.

Read the quote you posted earlier again, the part that comes after the final sentence you bolded. His SG became that of a normal servant after the strike. That is sacrificing it. If he still had that Grand strength he could have ended Tiamat himself and Gil would have no role to play coming back with EA.

 

[Solacis]

It is abundantly clear that you've misinterpreted a lot of what you've just quoted.

He lost the right to the Grand title by choosing to side with Chaldea to fight off Tiamat. The power of his Grand Saint Graph would start to disappear the moment he loses that title, but instead of just letting it fade, he used that power before he lost it, resulting in him imposing the concept of death and cutting off her wing.

He didn't sacrifice his power as a Grand to perform the strike. He sacrificed it to ally with Chaldea. Nasu himself directly said so in the interview I quoted.

The sequence of events was: King Hassan chose to ally with Chaldea > He loses his Grand title > His power starts disappearing because he's no longer a Grand > He uses the leftover power before it fades to impose the concept of death in Tiamat as well as cut off her wing.

The slash and the hax being performed alongside each other does not imply any form of durability negation, at all. Just because it imposes the concept of death does not mean his sword suddenly gains the ability to ignore durability. That's what I meant by there being no evidence.

Effectively, this means his AP as a Grand Servant would scale to Tiamat, because regardless of the hax, he would not have the means to sever her wing otherwise.

 

[AshenCrow777]

I agree with Solacis

Nothing implies he suddenly gained durability negation anywhere all he did was combine is incredible strength and just combined concept of death cuz that's how he does things when he cuts concepts with his sword.

Also WHY ISN'T KING HASSAN 6-C OR 6-A he has the feats to it.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

What Solacis said.

 

[ThatDarnFish]

I agree, once again, that King Hassan's AP as a Grand Servant should scale to Tiamat's Durability. His durability negation has only been tied to the fact that he can instant-kill most things with his death hax.


Not sure where he would land as a normal Servant, but I imagine that he woud stay at 7-A. Though we have no feats to place him anywhere higher as a normal servant.

 

[ThatDarnFish]

So where do we stand so far in terms of Grand King Hassan scaling to Tiamat?

 

[BakiHanma18]

So where do we stand so far in terms of Grand King Hassan scaling to Tiamat?

I say yes KH scales to Tia. Nothing I've read so far has indicated otherwise, and the proof in the positive of this claim is a quote from the author himself.

 

[Escanor998]

So, we are getting 2-A lion King, 2-A Stella and 2-A OzymanDIO, noice

 

[Escanor998]

Seriously, this is completely taken out of context

 

[BakiHanma18]

?

 

[Escanor998]

KH scales to Lion King (who is the avatar of the Holy Lance), Stella and Ramesseum Tentyris can match Rhongomyniad and anti-purge defenses can block a full power blast from the lance.

Airgetlam blocked Rhongomyniad and is on the same level of Excalibur (or rather, it IS Excalibur)

Mash blocked Excalibur Morgan using Lord Chaldeas

Fafnir breached through Lord Chaldeas

Balmung killed Fafnir

Balmung is weaker than VS

VS is unable to kill Arjuna Alter

Arjuna Alter is on the same level as Tiamat

Tiamat is weaker than Goetia

Ars Almadel Salomonis is able to vaporize Tiamat

Rhon is stated as to be able to resist the cleansing of earth by goetia

Go back to point A (OzymanDIO destroyed the Tower of the Fartest End)


See my point? Scaling is not useful if no context is taken into account, for example Tiamat was sealed, hurting herself, having her powers and authority drained, being weakened by the underworld, and also being already extremely damaged when King Hassan did his Dura Negating cut, that was empowered by burning the entirety of his GSG

 

[Escanor998]

2-A everyone


Y E S

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

You could have just put that all in one comment.

Rhon doesn't scale to KH anyway. All we have is a statement that Hassan could beat her, which could just be because A) overwhelming power or B) death hax.

Ramesseum was barely able to break the outer sheath of Rhon, it did nothing to the actual weapon.

Lord Chaldeas grows in strength in response to Mash's emotions, it doesn't always have the same defensive power.

 

[Escanor998]

It's a shitpost showing how using scaling without context is meaningless. Or do you honestly think that Hassan could solo the whole Grand Order?

 

[Paul_Frank]

Well Grands are supposed to fight beasts and beasts could solo the whole thing so

 

[AshenCrow777]

^^^^