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Kimetsu no Yaiba Speed

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That still doesn't change the fact that the swamp demon dodging that much wasn't in hte manga and is an extra scene. Just cause the author is ok with it doesn't mean it takes precedence over the original source material.

That scene is questionably fte especially since Genya percieves her attacking him in the dark and Sanemi can tackle her before she can complete her attack.
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Also is there any statement of Sanemi being far beyond normal humans as a child? The swamp demon couldn't consistently dodge them and was regularly outpaced by them. Only time he hit Nezuko was by learning her moves cause she's so predictable and even then he still got hit to tag her.
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Dragon Ball has its feats and I conceded DBS is inconsistent. Arguing about an entirley different verse is wasting time. So agree to disagree on dragon ball.

Thankyou for providing conclusive evidence on the gun. Swords can be more durable and can have extended range sure, but that still isn't conclusive on the gun being faster especially since breathing techniques should have no effect on the gun powder it uses or the nichirin bullets they aren't even touching.

Ah ok forgot that page. Aren't the breathing forms the reason why the swords change?

Tanjirou being flown upwards by Urogi wouldn't change a thing especially since the distance between Urogi and Tanjirou is constant so the attack is traveling the same distance regardless of Urogi's speed. There's also still Kanroji getting pushed away by the Biwa demon's attack (that specifically occured after her strum rather than even ata the same time) and Kanroji completing her attack on Zou Hakuten in the time it takes to get blasted by his sonic attack.

It isn't a tail wagged away from the screen since the sides of the fins are facing the viewer so the fish weren't cut uniformluy. It genuinely makes no sense for Muichiro to not take advantage of his extended range to not cut mutliple fish at once. Lastly why does the fish being cut from the same angle imply he cut them each individually?
 
The link you provide as another instance isn't a good example since its made clear that he can't see period, hence why he confused his mother for a wolf when she attacked and killed his brothers.
 
Thank you.

An easy to understand summary of the relevant arguments of this discussion would also be useful for them to be able to help out.
 
Can someone summarize the argument here? I don't exactly have the time at the moment to read all of these comments
 
Right so I'm advocating for the verse to not be MHS for a few reasons

1. The lightning of Kaigaku is questionable.

2. There are some anti feats like Tanjirou getting hit by a sonic attack before he can attack, Kanroji being repelled by the Biwa demon's ability which only shifts space after the sound of her biwa is released, Kanroji completing her attack on Zou Hakuten in the time it takes him to launch a sonic attack and Sanemi pulling a gun on Kokushibo and being surprised Kokushibo deflected it.

3. I'm calling Shadow's calc into question since his justification for using 5000-10,000 slashes is that the fish had a uniform cross section so therefore Muichiro was individually cutting them.

Aside from this the swamp demon and BoS characters' speeds are being called into question due to a normal human percieving the swamp demon on two seperate occasions and said demon dodging Tanjirou a total of one time while regularly failing to properly react to Tanjirou and Nezuko.
 
@Insert

Those are some valid points against Massively Hypersonic, I can agree that it now seems very iffy that MHS is valid

@Shadow

What are your counterpoints
 
My Summary:

  • 1- Swamp Demon calc
My side: Reapply the calc using subsonic speed instead of supersonic (putting his speed at Hypersonic), as both Tanjiro and inferior demons displayed FTE movement. His side: The civilian screams during one of the Swamp Demon's attacks which he believes is an antifeat that proves the Swamp Demon is not FTE and that the fight is happening at below subsonic speed.

  • 2- Kanroji hit by sound attack
My side: consistent with MHS+ speed from lightning feats from her and Zenitsu, as she was caught by surprise mid-air by an invisible AoE sound attack. His side: An anti-feat that should cancel the lightning feats and massively lower the speed of the top-tiers.

  • 3- Nakime using music instrument for spatial manipulation
My side: Consistent with the speed of top tiers as Nakime was described to perform spatial manipulation as easily as moving her own body, and any music notes shown to the audience in an unrealistic manner is a clear example of Coconut Effect, where not displaying them is jarring and immersion breaking for the audience. His side: An anti-feat that should massively lower the speed of the top-tiers

  • 4- Genya using a shotgun, and Sanemi using the shotgun against a top-tier
My side: Consistent with the current speed scaling as the gun is made from Nichirin (as stated by Tanjiro in the manga and reiterated in the guidebook) and Sanemi is shown to have enhanced it by blocking Kokuchibu slash (even though massively weaker demons can casually slice through Nichirin by a weaker Breath user), and both Kokushibou and a demon massively slower than him managed to blitz/parry the pellets from Genya . His side: Puts a hard-limit on the speed of top-tiers as we should assume that it is a normal gun.

  • 5- Tanjiro being hit by a sound attacks
My side: Consistent with the current speed scaling as he was not in a position to dodge, as he was being flown upward, was disorientated and feeling numb, or caught by surprise mid-air by AoE attack. His side: An anti-feat the should massively lower the speed of at least the beginning of series and mid-tiers.

My side: Rational and makes low-ball assumptions; the lower limit for the slashes is set at 1000 because the angle of the cross-section is consistent and creates roundel-shaped slices, thus vastly limiting the fish he cuts per slash at those directly below him, and it is not plausible for him to cut more than 10 fish at a time. His side: The number of slashes is way lower than 1000, and Muichiro would have cut much more than 10 fish per slash.

We have water wheel + outline for vertical slash + horizontal slash. That is three slashes and is consistent with the manga (even if you think the vertical slash is ambiguous, the ambiguity is lifted by the anime). Again, I don't deny that the Swamp Demon is outpaced by both Tanjiro and Nezuko, however being outpaced = somewhat comparable.

@Duedate8898 If you pay attention, you'll see that the reason he can't see and that "it is dark" is because the demon destroyed the lightbulb. Children weren't running around in pitch black when they opened the door.

The scene is unquestionably FTE since the demon had time to slash five people and jump to the ceiling in front of a suspicious Genya before he figures out what is going on. Being able to somewhat react for the second attack doesn't disqualify the first. Also explainable by an adreline trope, and the consistent theme that humans release explosive strength when driven into a corner. We are shown that Sanemi is far beyond a human child; we don't need to be told, and the existence of extraordinary humans is consistent with the verse (for example, the databook said that Tanjiro's mother defeated a wildboar with her headbutt, which is potentially a 9-B feat), and Sanemi was able to defeat the demon because she got intoxicated by his blood. But yes, it is told; Sanemi was hunting and killing demons as a child by capturing them and making them burn under the su (although he was using his intoxicating blood and said he was lucky), and Kokuchibu had great praise for him.

Conclusive evidence was provided when Tanjiro said that the gun smells like a Nichirin weapon. And lol, you acknowledge that Breaths + Nichirin enhances weapons by breaking our laws of physics, and you are talking about gun powder in enhanced guns. Please explain to me how can Muichiro's Nichirin sword make the demon fish disintegrate without the metal touching the fish; this means that Muichiro did ~10,000 slashes because it breaks the laws of physics for his metal sword to extend.

Distance between Urogi and Tanjiro is not relevant. Tanjiro's position was moving up; the soundwaves were moving down, therefore the impact will happen faster depending on how fast Tanjiro moves up.

The body of the fish in the panel is drawn to be smooth; therefore the uneven part is most likely wagging fins, and yes they can wag away from the screen even if the body is on the side. Muichiro later stated that he was not being serious, nor using his full speed, so the extremely inefficient cutting method is easily explained by him flexing. If Muichiro can only cut downward to produce this angle of crossection, this means that if he is cutting more than one fish the fish he is cutting needs to be lined out directly below him, however the 10,000 fish are spread out all over the place, and it is not plausible that many fish would get lined out below him every time.

Conclusive evidence was provided when Tanjiro said that the gun smells like a Nichirin weapon. It is already established that massively slower
 
I will actually say Kaigaku's lightning isn't questionable, but straight up not real.
 
1. Shadow I already mentioned that it wasn't just once of him screaming. The demon attacks and he flat out keeps up with it using his eyes.

2. Zenitsu doesn't have any MHS scaling. His current calc for that level of speed is using Kaigaku.

3. If it was the coconut effect shouldn't the strum sound have occured at the same time as her attack rather than before it?

4. Demon Slayers can enhance the power and durability of their blades but that shouldn't have any effect on the gun powder of the gun or bullets the slayers aren't even touching.

5. It isn't as though Tanjirou was thrown into the air. Even then as they're moving upwards, Tanjirou should have plenty of time to react since you said he's hypersonic.

6. Why does the angle affect the number of fish cut though?
 
1- Which sounds like your run-of-the-mill case of Talking is a Free Action. The fact are there are four cases of BoS Tanjiro or vastly inferior demons moving FTE makes the claim that a serious Tanjiro is fighting below subsonic speed absolutely ludicrous.

2- He actually has a MHS+ scaling, and it is approved. And I think we passed the point of nitpicking and pedantry about lightning.

3- Not neccessarily as the audience's enjoyment and immersion is the goal (same analogy: watching Dragon Ball fights with no sound effects would be annoying and break immersion, even if the sound effects at that speed is unrealistic), and the sfx and the effect being shown in different panel does not neccessities temporal superiority; the sfx and effect are often shown in the same panel.

4- And by touching non-Nichirin wooden/skin handles, they are touching the Nichirin metal of the blade?

5- Still soundwaves keep moving down, and Tanjiro keeps moving up toward the soundwaves. Whether someone is grabbing Tanjiro's legs doesn't cancel that.

6- Because Muichiro needs to cut in a specific direction every time, which restricts the fish he can cut to the fish that are below him.
 
The only tangible effect that Kaigaku ever did was the burning which is explained through the fact that his sword is infused with his blood demon art.
 
1. I never said Tanjirou was below subsonic. If we use peak human combat speed for the demon (since a normal human could percieve and turn to it mid attack and later follow its movements with his eyes) Tanjirou would end up at subsonic combat speed with supersonic reactions. The other instances you're talking about of fte demons are iffy since Genya could still percieve his mom attacking him and the temple demon is never shown to be fte in the manga.

2. Zenitsu's scaling is literally from a single calc using Kaigaku's lightning that is still iffy. It was even approved cause nobody asked for proof of it being real.

3. Then why would the strum sound occur before the attack? It would make more sense for it to occur at the same time as the attack you know just like in dragon ball where the sounds of their punches occur when they land rather than before them.

4. Fine bad point but how would they be affecting the gun powder in the gun?

5. Unless the demon is flying far faster than his own attack Tanjirou who is hypersonic has precog should still be faster than it.

6. That still doesn't limit him to an individual fish per slash since his range has increased and the fish are packed together closely he can eliminate multiple while still cutting from the same angle.
 
Antvasima said:
On second thought, here are some people that you can ask:

Apex PredatorX

Dragonmasterxyz

Ciruno Fortes

DemonGodMitchAubin

Qliphoth Bacikal

IvoryAS

Arrogant Schmuck
Click to expand...
Has somebody politely asked all of the above members to comment here for further input?
 
@Ant

On the first point, the issue isn't the speaking, is the fact that the civilian who is being talked about is capable of consistently reacting to the swamp demon. That and this very demon right here has yet to show any FTE nor has Tanjirou up to this point.

On the second point, the lightning feat for Zentisu comes from apparently blitzing lightning which shouldn't be real due to it falling under a breathing art, which do not create the elements that the breath's style themselves after and the actual issue is that each of the characters whose been hit by the sound attack are always getting hit right before they can do an attack. In the case of Tanjirou, he was beginning a Breathing Art but then got hit before he could complete his attack and the pillar is more egregious since she was just about to take off the head of her opponent before he hit her with his sound based attack.

Third point, honestly got no comment there.

Fourth point, the same.
 
Okay. That seems to make sense, but it still leaves 4 other points.
 
Nakime's spatial manip occurring after her biwa is played and the sound is produced really shouldn't fall under coconut effect since the same exact scene would've played out if it occured at the same time as her ability rather than before. Only reason I could imagine the sound would occur before the attack is to tell us how fast it is or maybe the author thought it was cool to do it like that.

Demon slayers strengthening their blades and granting them unknown and what seems to be irrelevant special effects should have no effect on the gunpowder of a gun.

Ant perhaps you could explain Shadow's reasoning to me better cause I don't see how an attack coming from a specific angle would mean he couldn't hit multiple fish at once.
 
I am not well informed enough to explain beyond what I have been told.
 
I do agree with some of Shadow's points, but Insert's argument just feels more solid, you have to make a lot of assumptions for the calcs to work, as well, it's really hard to prove Kaigaku's Lighting is real lightning
 
Well, Mitch usually has a good sense of judgement, so I likely made an inaccurate evaluation due to being in a hurry.
 
I still think we should get some or more knowledgeable members to comment, wasn't there a thread about Kaigaku's Lighting getting accepted as real Lightning before, is everyone who agreed with that thread here, if not try to summon them as well

@Antvasima

Thanks for the complement as well :)
 
To gather the low-level FTE feats and checkmate the Swamp Demon and sound discussion:

  • Temari Demon and Arrow Demon moving FTE
  • To anticipate the objection of "why doesn't he rush the Drum Demon in a straight line if he is faster than sound" (which Tanjiro said he might have been able to do if he wasn't injured), this isn't an effective tactic since the Drum Demon is able to send both Tanjiro and Inosuke flying away with his Spatial Manipulation even if they are at sword's reach.
  • Inosuke blitzes the Horned Demon who was surprised that a human managed to dodge his attack, and who has managed to injure the Drum Demon even though he spams Spatial Manipulation and invisible sound attacks.
  • An injured Tanjiro moves FTE agai.
  • Rui shoots webs that slices the Greedy Demon Slayer before he can react.
  • Inosuke barely reacts to the transformed Spider Father even though he was previously blitzed
  • Nezuko exists the box and moves in front of Tanjiro before Rui's webs can reach him
  • Tanjiro dodges Rui with FTE movement
  • Nezuko dodges Kanao's attack
  • Mom Demon knocks the door and then breaks through it in front of Genya, slashes four of his siblings, jumps to the ceiling, and destroys the light bulb faster than Genya can perceive it. And for the previous objection, yes human can reach superhuman levels by our standards without Breathing techniques, so Genya reacting to the second attack is more than adequately explained by adrenaline.
So I changed my mind; the Swamp Demon calc does not need a recalc at subsonic; it is just fine as it is with placing the Swamp Demon's speed at transonic.

As for the gun, massively slower demons compared to Kokushibo are able to react to a shot from stealth (and Tanjiro said that they allowed themselves to be hit and decapitated on purpose), and even block them. When Genya tried to snipe Kokushibo from stealth, Kokushibo casually blitzes him after he fires, even though Genya after reciting his prayer was able to blitz the demon was blocked the pellets. Muichiro is able to swat aside thousands of needles while affected by paralysis Poison, and Kokushibo vastly surpasses Muichiro in speed even while he is using the Demon Slayer Mark. There is no way around it; if Sanemi was expecting the Nichirin pellets to hit Kokushibo then he was he further enhancing their speed just like he enhanced the gun's durability (he wasn't expecting them to kill, only distract him enough that he can free his sword)

DemonGodMitchAubin said:
I do agree with some of Shadow's points, but Insert's argument just feels more solid, you have to make a lot of assumptions for the calcs to work, as well, it's really hard to prove Kaigaku's Lighting is real lightning
Click to expand...
"a lot of assumptions"? Can you name them please?

The only assumption that is not explicitly low-ball is the number of slashes. And claiming that he is cutting untold dozens of fish per slash when he is only aiming downward is absurd, since they would be out of his range.

This panel is enough to prove that it is real lightning. Kaigaku was not using his Breathing techniques independently, but he merged them with his Blood Demon Arts. As we know, Blood Demon Arts creates real elements, hence the lightning is not merely illusionary like with normal Breathing techniques but have physical effects.
 
Majority of the fte feats you posted are for people who scale above the swamp demon.

The temple demon didn't move fte in the manga and neither did Tanjirou or Sabito in their fight. Even if it is secondary canon you can't put it above the source material of the actual series.

The swamp demon has no fte feats and was consistently outpaced by Tanjirou and Nezuko as shown in the scans I posted in a previous reply.
 
Has anybody asked the people that I recommended to comment here yet?
 
Okay. Thanks. You should tell them the subject matter as well, and that I would appreciate some input.
 
So, I don't comment often and am not an active member, but Demon Slayer is one of my favorite manga/anime, so I am very familiar with the series. I am a bit uncomfortable with the characters being the speed of actual lightning (or faster), but given how anime never ceases to amaze me in how absurdly fast things get, I am somewhat neutral on the topic.

My impression thus far though about some of the feats.
Pretty much every demon is FTE or greater, given that even the Temple Demon Tanjiro and Nezuko fought exhibited such speed when blitzing Tanjiro.

Kyogai is the first mention of attacks being comparable to sound. This makes me doubt that the Swamp Demon was transonic, rather than subsonic/subsonic+

Muichiro cutting the ten thousand fish, could have been done in many slices or just a few, the fish are densely packed together, and the panel is a still that only shows one motion, so it is hard to gauge.

My interpretation of Kaigaku's Demon Blood Art, wasn't that he shoots real lightning that moved as fast as Cloud to Ground lightning, but that his slashes were imbued with the element so that when he struck, it caused burns.He continually mentions his slashes, which makes me personally doubt that it is lightning speed rather than his slashes with elemental energy complimenting each strike.

I don't have an opinion on the use of a gun, anime tends to treat guns weird, if every shotgun or pistol in anime was placed at real life gun speeds, a lot of anime speed scaling would become incoherent.
 
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