Kashin Koji Upgrade [Naruto]

[Ghostimuscrime]

Hello everyone, today’s thread is about a minor upgrade for Kashin Koji, will try to keep this super short, pardon any mistakes I may make as this is my first CRT

Current Scaling​

Currently he is 5C downscaling from Jigen and 9c upscaling from Kakashi, the reasonings for these are flawed and massively outdated, initially people wanted 5A ap so they incorporated a 10x multiplier based off of Jigen only possessing 10% of his chakra and it reasons that 100% would be 10x stronger.

Why I Disagree​

Firstly, the amount of chakra one has is not indicative of their AP. As explained here, AP for Shinobi is Chakra Control+Chakra Amount

Increasing only chakra gives you more stamina and allow you to spam attacks, use costly jutsu and overall last long in battle, low chakra means your arsenal gets limited and you might eventually collapse, it has little bearing on AP unless the user is undergoing a transformation or using stronger jutsu. So Jigen at 10% Fuel should be scaled to the same as Base form Jigen that gets scaled to Base Naruto (and being 100% should not multiply his ap 10x based on more chakra) as he wasn't charging here [Ch45] it's likely he didn't believe his own power has weakened enough to need that making the idea of it being fuel instead of AP more valid.

My Contentions​

And the scaling is a bit weird because if Jigen is 5C at 10%, is he also 5C with partial transformations? If yes then the same logic should apply to Isshiki as that is another one of his transformations in the same fight, so Isshiki is 5C and Naruto entered Baryon Mode just to downgrade to 5C? That makes no sense. if you only believe Jigen with a horn should scale to Prime FP Jigen that would still grant KK a 10c speed rating based off this feat from Ch 46

If charging for 2 days upgrades you to Jigen level AP, why not charge all the cyborgs for a week and annihilate Konoha? Let Jigen charge for 4 days and get 200% power, Again makes no sense, we musn’t be greedy for upgrades to the point of sacrificing consistency.

So I believe the multiplier should be removed, KK should be awarded a full rating of 845.9 Exatons and 10C based on feats against Jigen.​

Featuring Delta​

naruto stands a chance against isshiki while KK doesnt, this is because of MAS, stronger transformations, specific Jutsu etc, it does not contradict my proposal since I'm scaling him to Base Naruto who's 2x weaker than peak forms

When making the statement of knocking out Delta he uses hand signs indicating he’s gonna use some jutsu, hand signs arent used for when he hops into Sage Mode so he had no intentions of going to sage mode to beat her (or even Jigen tbh)

Even if you think he may beat Delta via certain jutsu instead of physical superiority that would still require him to scale to her speed objectively and we should take his statement as correct because it is KK that gives us info regarding Jigen’s superiority over the Konoha Duo and MAS, so he would know very well if his speed (and likely ap) can handle Delta’s

and none of his scaling should be under sage mode since its never used against people the narrative was confident he could take on. Amado most likely does not consider his cyborgs made to fight Jigen level entities under certain transformations, he generally makes them to fight straight up so the sage mode should only have (stronger than before) and prior ratings should be moved in front.

Conclusion​

Proposed Changes for Kashin Koji :

AP : Small Planet Level (Matched Base Jigen in Combat) [845.6 Exatons] possibly higher (Kashin Koji was confident he
could take down Delta in his base form) [1.69 Zettatons], higher with Sage Mode.

Speed : FTL+ (Fought Kakashi, was able to give base Jigen a somewhat fair fight, was confident he could take down
Delta) higher with Sage Mode (Faster than before)

Agree :
Disagree :
Neutral :

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Following

 

[The_Alxhemist]

Following.

But the initial justification for Small Planet is just false. He matched a less than 10% Jigen, and wasn't even matching him per say, just outright exhausting him.

 

[Ecronicron]

Hello everyone, today’s thread is about a minor upgrade for Kashin Koji, will try to keep this super short, pardon any mistakes I may make as this is my first CRT

Current Scaling​

Currently he is 5C downscaling from Jigen and 9c upscaling from Kakashi, the reasonings for these are flawed and massively outdated, initially people wanted 5A ap so they incorporated a 10x multiplier based off of Jigen only possessing 10% of his chakra and it reasons that 100% would be 10x stronger.

Why I Disagree​

Firstly, the amount of chakra one has is not indicative of their AP. As explained here, AP for Shinobi is Chakra Control+Chakra Amount

Increasing only chakra gives you more stamina and allow you to spam attacks, use costly jutsu and overall last long in battle, low chakra means your arsenal gets limited and you might eventually collapse, it has little bearing on AP unless the user is undergoing a transformation or using stronger jutsu. So Jigen at 10% Fuel should be scaled to the same as Base form Jigen that gets scaled to Base Naruto (and being 100% should not multiply his ap 10x based on more chakra) as he wasn't charging here [Ch45] it's likely he didn't believe his own power has weakened enough to need that making the idea of it being fuel instead of AP more valid.

My Contentions​

And the scaling is a bit weird because if Jigen is 5C at 10%, is he also 5C with partial transformations? If yes then the same logic should apply to Isshiki as that is another one of his transformations in the same fight, so Isshiki is 5C and Naruto entered Baryon Mode just to downgrade to 5C? That makes no sense. if you only believe Jigen with a horn should scale to Prime FP Jigen that would still grant KK a 10c speed rating based off this feat from Ch 46

If charging for 2 days upgrades you to Jigen level AP, why not charge all the cyborgs for a week and annihilate Konoha? Let Jigen charge for 4 days and get 200% power, Again makes no sense, we musn’t be greedy for upgrades to the point of sacrificing consistency.

So I believe the multiplier should be removed, KK should be awarded a full rating of 845.9 Exatons and 10C based on feats against Jigen.​

Featuring Delta​

naruto stands a chance against isshiki while KK doesnt, this is because of MAS, stronger transformations, specific Jutsu etc, it does not contradict my proposal since I'm scaling him to Base Naruto who's 2x weaker than peak forms

When making the statement of knocking out Delta he uses hand signs indicating he’s gonna use some jutsu, hand signs arent used for when he hops into Sage Mode so he had no intentions of going to sage mode to beat her (or even Jigen tbh)

Even if you think he may beat Delta via certain jutsu instead of physical superiority that would still require him to scale to her speed objectively and we should take his statement as correct because it is KK that gives us info regarding Jigen’s superiority over the Konoha Duo and MAS, so he would know very well if his speed (and likely ap) can handle Delta’s

and none of his scaling should be under sage mode since its never used against people the narrative was confident he could take on. Amado most likely does not consider his cyborgs made to fight Jigen level entities under certain transformations, he generally makes them to fight straight up so the sage mode should only have (stronger than before) and prior ratings should be moved in front.

Conclusion​

Proposed Changes for Kashin Koji :

AP : Small Planet Level (Matched Base Jigen in Combat) [845.6 Exatons] possibly higher (Kashin Koji was confident he
could take down Delta in his base form) [1.69 Zettatons], higher with Sage Mode.

Speed : FTL+ (Fought Kakashi, was able to give base Jigen a somewhat fair fight, was confident he could take down
Delta) higher with Sage Mode (Faster than before)

Agree :
Disagree :
Neutral :

Following

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Following.

But the initial justification for Small Planet is just false. He matched a less than 10% Jigen, and wasn't even matching him per say, just outright exhausting him.

I've explained why the 10% isn't indicative of power and that should be FP Base Jigen and as you can see they clash multiple times

Jigen has no reason to realistically hold back either as Koji has full killing intent

 

[Floxy178]

Firstly, the amount of chakra one has is not indicative of their AP. As explained here, AP for Shinobi is Chakra Control+Chakra Amount

Increasing only chakra gives you more stamina and allow you to spam attacks, use costly jutsu and overall last long in battle, low chakra means your arsenal gets limited and you might eventually collapse, it has little bearing on AP unless the user is undergoing a transformation or using stronger jutsu.

I don't really agree with this part. We don't compare 2 different guys with 10x difference in chakra capacity, we compare same guy who has same level of chakra control in both versions.

With worse chakra control you spend more chakra to same thing that someone with better chakra control would spend less. Think of it like useful efficiency, AP = chakra control×chakra output. But here both 10% Jigen and 100% Jigen should have same level of chakra control which means it won't affect his AP and only amount does.

Whether this gives only more stamina or not depends on if user will spend chakra as before or not. If after increase he will put 10x more chakra to his jutsus stamina will be same but AP will increase 10x.

 

[OMsHanT69]

Following

I know your lazy ahh did not read all that ecro

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

naruto stands a chance against isshiki while KK doesnt, this is because of MAS, stronger transformations, specific Jutsu etc, it does not contradict my proposal since I'm scaling him to Base Naruto who's 2x weaker than peak forms

I was planning on bringing this. Yeah it was never stated Kashin Koji is weaker than Base Naruto or any other forms. I guess it all falls under different interpretations but pushing a single interpretation is completely wrong who made Kashin Koji below Base Naruto.

So I agree with your point

When making the statement of knocking out Delta he uses hand signs indicating he’s gonna use some jutsu, hand signs arent used for when he hops into Sage Mode so he had no intentions of going to sage mode to beat her (or even Jigen tbh)

Hand sign is for Teleportation Jutsu. So definitely not sage mode..

https://vsbattles.com/threads/naruto-to-boruto-discussion-thread.107558/post-6571300

Anyway I agree with most of the part.
Base Koji Speed should be relative to Delta
Even if physicals does not scale to her. I would say his flames and Rasengan atleast scales to her.
Sage mode should have different scale.

 

[karo_senpaii]

I don't really agree with this part. We don't compare 2 different guys with 10x difference in chakra capacity, we compare same guy who has same level of chakra control in both versions.

With worse chakra control you spend more chakra to same thing that someone with better chakra control would spend less. Think of it like useful efficiency, AP = chakra control×chakra output. But here both 10% Jigen and 100% Jigen should have same level of chakra control which means it won't affect his AP and only amount does.

Whether this gives only more stamina or not depends on if user will spend chakra as before or not. If after increase he will put 10x more chakra to his jutsus stamina will be same but AP will increase 10x.

This sounds like an agreement and disagreement at the same time ngl

Hello everyone, today’s thread is about a minor upgrade for Kashin Koji, will try to keep this super short, pardon any mistakes I may make as this is my first CRT

Current Scaling​

Currently he is 5C downscaling from Jigen and 9c upscaling from Kakashi, the reasonings for these are flawed and massively outdated, initially people wanted 5A ap so they incorporated a 10x multiplier based off of Jigen only possessing 10% of his chakra and it reasons that 100% would be 10x stronger.

Why I Disagree​

Firstly, the amount of chakra one has is not indicative of their AP. As explained here, AP for Shinobi is Chakra Control+Chakra Amount

Increasing only chakra gives you more stamina and allow you to spam attacks, use costly jutsu and overall last long in battle, low chakra means your arsenal gets limited and you might eventually collapse, it has little bearing on AP unless the user is undergoing a transformation or using stronger jutsu. So Jigen at 10% Fuel should be scaled to the same as Base form Jigen that gets scaled to Base Naruto (and being 100% should not multiply his ap 10x based on more chakra) as he wasn't charging here [Ch45] it's likely he didn't believe his own power has weakened enough to need that making the idea of it being fuel instead of AP more valid.

My Contentions​

And the scaling is a bit weird because if Jigen is 5C at 10%, is he also 5C with partial transformations? If yes then the same logic should apply to Isshiki as that is another one of his transformations in the same fight, so Isshiki is 5C and Naruto entered Baryon Mode just to downgrade to 5C? That makes no sense. if you only believe Jigen with a horn should scale to Prime FP Jigen that would still grant KK a 10c speed rating based off this feat from Ch 46

If charging for 2 days upgrades you to Jigen level AP, why not charge all the cyborgs for a week and annihilate Konoha? Let Jigen charge for 4 days and get 200% power, Again makes no sense, we musn’t be greedy for upgrades to the point of sacrificing consistency.

So I believe the multiplier should be removed, KK should be awarded a full rating of 845.9 Exatons and 10C based on feats against Jigen.​

Featuring Delta​

naruto stands a chance against isshiki while KK doesnt, this is because of MAS, stronger transformations, specific Jutsu etc, it does not contradict my proposal since I'm scaling him to Base Naruto who's 2x weaker than peak forms

When making the statement of knocking out Delta he uses hand signs indicating he’s gonna use some jutsu, hand signs arent used for when he hops into Sage Mode so he had no intentions of going to sage mode to beat her (or even Jigen tbh)

Even if you think he may beat Delta via certain jutsu instead of physical superiority that would still require him to scale to her speed objectively and we should take his statement as correct because it is KK that gives us info regarding Jigen’s superiority over the Konoha Duo and MAS, so he would know very well if his speed (and likely ap) can handle Delta’s

and none of his scaling should be under sage mode since its never used against people the narrative was confident he could take on. Amado most likely does not consider his cyborgs made to fight Jigen level entities under certain transformations, he generally makes them to fight straight up so the sage mode should only have (stronger than before) and prior ratings should be moved in front.

Conclusion​

Proposed Changes for Kashin Koji :

AP : Small Planet Level (Matched Base Jigen in Combat) [845.6 Exatons] possibly higher (Kashin Koji was confident he
could take down Delta in his base form) [1.69 Zettatons], higher with Sage Mode.

Speed : FTL+ (Fought Kakashi, was able to give base Jigen a somewhat fair fight, was confident he could take down
Delta) higher with Sage Mode (Faster than before)

Agree :
Disagree :
Neutral :

Fully agree with the speed part. The ap part I don't think you addressed the main issues well. for the delta part the hand sign does not matter. His arsenal is so full of duraneg that with good speed he does not really need to be at same ap level to combat her. I guess you could argue possibly though.

The sage part yes, I definitely think the guy who decided to specifically clone jiraiya would have 100% taken sage mode into account. Like his toads are scientific ninja tools built by amado

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I don't really agree with this part. We don't compare 2 different guys with 10x difference in chakra capacity, we compare same guy who has same level of chakra control in both versions.

With worse chakra control you spend more chakra to same thing that someone with better chakra control would spend less. Think of it like useful efficiency, AP = chakra control×chakra output. But here both 10% Jigen and 100% Jigen should have same level of chakra control which means it won't affect his AP and only amount does.

Whether this gives only more stamina or not depends on if user will spend chakra as before or not. If after increase he will put 10x more chakra to his jutsus stamina will be same but AP will increase 10x.

So you more or less agree with my final premise? Or I might be interpreting you wrong, I do think the chakra control would be the same in both cases

Anyway I agree with most of the part.
Base Koji Speed should be relative to Delta
Even if physicals does not scale to her. I would say his flames and Rasengan atleast scales to her.
Sage mode should have different scale.

Nice, shall I update the justification to 1.69 ZT via ninjutsu instead of likely higher?

 

[45Saef]

Following. Will drop my takes later on today.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

His arsenal is so full of duraneg that with good speed he does not really need to be at same ap level to combat her. I guess you could argue possibly though.

His flames & Rasengan are considered as dura neg?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Nice, shall I update the justification to 1.69 ZT via ninjutsu instead of likely higher?

Idk man. Not sure the value they scale. I'm just giving my POV on this. If Delta scales to that yeah. But if flames and Rasengan are considered as dura neg then it won't be possible to scale to AP.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Fully agree with the speed part. The ap part I don't think you addressed the main issues well. for the delta part the hand sign does not matter. His arsenal is so full of duraneg that with good speed he does not really need to be at same ap level to combat her. I guess you could argue possibly though.

The sage part yes, I definitely think the guy who decided to specifically clone jiraiya would have 100% taken sage mode into account. Like his toads are scientific ninja tools built by amado

Can you tell me what contentions you have with AP? I mean he already has Delta scaling under likely, I just changed it to possibly and to his base instead of his sage mode


As for Sage Mode, as I've said before the cyborgs were created to physically be able to handle the power that six paths level characters possess, to limit that to very restrictive transformation that can't be spammed for one of the cyborgs while many of them drastically gap jigen in power would be unlikely imo

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Idk man. Not sure the value they scale. I'm just giving my POV on this. If Delta scales to that yeah. But if flames and Rasengan are considered as dura neg then it won't be possible to scale to AP.

Rasengan is not considered dura neg and the flames are real summoned fire, I am thinking of continuing with my prior justifications since Koji already has Sage Mode justifications for likely scaling to Delta

 

[Ecronicron]

I know your lazy ahh did not read all that ecro

I read it when he sent it in the discord server breh

 

[OMsHanT69]

I read it when he sent it in the discord server breh

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I read it when he sent it in the discord server breh

Please stick to the topic, these messages derail the thread

 

[karo_senpaii]

Can you tell me what contentions you have with AP? I mean he already has Delta scaling under likely, I just changed it to possibly and to his base instead of his sage mode


As for Sage Mode, as I've said before the cyborgs were created to physically be able to handle the power that six paths level characters possess, to limit that to very restrictive transformation that can't be spammed for one of the cyborgs while many of them drastically gap jigen in power would be unlikely imo

For one I want to say something. The less than 10% was never referred to chakra capacity not once. For starters it makes no logical sense for jigen chakra to take 2 days to refil. I mean a goodnight sleep should be all he needs. Thing is what he is connected to is most likely to repair the vessel jigen which was in a critical state. Amado was likely just referring to his capacity all round in terms of power as less than 10%

Now Yes normally the cyborgs created were not to rely on transformations but KK is special. No other cyborg was like him. It is very likely sage mode is one of the core reasons as to why amado decided to clone jiraiya in the first place. Why else would he take the pain to take DNA from the bottom of the sea? So I think amado factored in sage mode.

 

[OMsHanT69]

Please stick to the topic, these messages derail the thread

Ik it caused you physical pain to respond that formally ghost
Anyways sorry for the disturbance .

 

[Testarossa002]

As for Sage Mode, as I've said before the cyborgs were created to physically be able to handle the power that six paths level characters possess, to limit that to very restrictive transformation that can't be spammed for one of the cyborgs while many of them drastically gap jigen in power would be unlikely imo

I don't know about this, dude.
Victor, Deepa and Boro are nowhere near six path tier characters with the latter getting tossed around at his strongest by an actual six path tier character (Borushiki)

Overall, I'm neutral on the thread's proposal

 

[Floxy178]

So you more or less agree with my final premise?

Yeah

Or I might be interpreting you wrong, I do think the chakra control would be the same in both cases

Then I have no idea how existance of chakra control can mean that chakra increase won't give you AP increase.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I don't know about this, dude.
Victor, Deepa and Boro are nowhere near six path tier characters with the latter getting tossed around at his strongest by an actual six path tier character (Borushiki)

Well Borushiki is like a tier above most of the six paths characters too, by Six Paths I meant KCM Naruto that's what most of them believe they can take on, including Code and Boro , Delta believing she could take Naruto and then having feats sufficient enough to scale to him means their statements hold some level of credibility that these characters would give Naruto at least some level of challenge

And since Koji was made to end Jigen and he does not use that for normal Jigen implies it doesn't boost AP much for him to warrant pushing all his ratings to the SM section

For one I want to say something. The less than 10% was never referred to chakra capacity not once. For starters it makes no logical sense for jigen chakra to take 2 days to refil. I mean a goodnight sleep should be all he needs. Thing is what he is connected to is most likely to repair the vessel jigen which was in a critical state. Amado was likely just referring to his capacity all round in terms of power as less than 10%

Now Yes normally the cyborgs created were not to rely on transformations but KK is special. No other cyborg was like him. It is very likely sage mode is one of the core reasons as to why amado decided to clone jiraiya in the first place. Why else would he take the pain to take DNA from the bottom of the sea? So I think amado factored in sage mode.

But the statements straight up say

You have almost zero chakra left. It'll take two whole days to reach full tank again.

This supports the fuel interpretation way more than the overall power interpretation and does not have the issue of his higher transformations scaling 10% of the original which would be weird.

Also Koji was one of the lesser special cyborgs given how he boro and delta did not even actualize their abilities from Shibai so it would be weird to base your claim off of him being special, the DNA part can be explained by Jiraiya having an incredible arsenal of jutsus rather than a transformation who's AP amps have been inconsistent throughout the series

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Then I have no idea how existance of chakra control can mean that chakra increase won't give you AP increase.

if the chakra control isn't worsened then his AP should not go lower

remember Jigen goes from 100% to near 10%
it's not an upgrade that he would receive a 10x boost as you're questioning