Kamen Rider Transduality Revision "II"

[ImmortalDread]

It is somehow supererogatory to restrict what the author need to say to fit our standards. Also, you don't need “dual systems”, it depends on the fiction setting.
In MG, we have “Order” that presents it. You will see that those requirements contradict the fiction setting/author intentions.

Also? DT said this.

I don't think we should codify which words appear in the statement. That just seems unnecessarily inflexible. As said, synonyms and paraphrasing are acceptable. This is the type of thing where one should just look at the explanations the verse gives and think about whether they equate to the requirements for the type that the page lays out.

And I find it really commonsensible.

 

[Firestorm808]

What are you arguing for?

We're both on the same page that paraphrases or synonyms are acceptable.

If the definition or characteristics of "Order" boils down to transcending duality or the like, it counts as a synonym or paraphrase.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I am arguing about that he never said we need those statements, he said we can add examples or instances, but it is never a rule to begin with.

 

[Firestorm808]

How else would you justify a character having the ability without some statement or characteristic that involves some equivalent of "All Duality"?

What precedent example are you drawing from?

 

[ImmortalDread]

@Firestorm808 it depends on the context. We don't need to add statements requirement (which your suggestion got declined by @DontTalkDT) to give someone TD type 2. Yes, the author can fully describe it on his own way.

Also, are you agreeing or disagree with the thread?

 

[Firestorm808]

@Firestorm808 it depends on the context. We don't need to add statements requirement (which your suggestion got declined by @DontTalkDT) to give someone TD type 2. Yes, the author can fully describe it on his own way.

Also, are you agreeing or disagree with the thread?

As I said, statement or characteristic equivalents.

My suggestion was about whether or not only explicit descriptions should be allowed. That is not what we are talking about right now.

We're not limiting how it is depicted, just that the core concept of all duality is involved.

Regarding the current thread, I'm leaning against Type 2 applying.

 

[ImmortalDread]

It should not be allowed, in my opinion (explicit description).

 

[Fixxed]

It should not be allowed, in my opinion (explicit description).

(2)

 

[Omazio2019]

Can we consider Sougo "rule" the duality as synonyms that transcend them cause due to "rule" past and future he transcends time and immune to timeline rewrite. And to Fixxed Yin-Yang is not only good and bad in KR but also front and back, light and dark, life and death (Sougo (yang) represent the living while Ura Sougo(Yin)-the inhabitant of Mirror World as the dead)

 

[the_doctor]

Bisakah kita menganggap Sougo "memerintah" dualitas sebagai sinonim yang melampaui mereka karena karena "memerintah" masa lalu dan masa depan dia melampaui waktu dan kebal terhadap penulisan ulang garis waktu. Dan untuk Fixxed Yin-Yang tidak hanya baik dan buruk di KR tetapi juga depan dan belakang, terang dan gelap, hidup dan mati (Sougo (yang) mewakili yang hidup sedangkan Ura Sougo (Yin) - penghuni Dunia Cermin sebagai orang mati )

But why? Should Sougo get td 2 from transcend creation and destruction.

 

[Omazio2019]

But why? Should Sougo get td 2 from transcend creation and destruction.

If we have proof that Creation and Destruction encompass all other lower dualities in reality, though i think Yin-Yang should work in this case

 

[ImmortalDread]

What does lower means in your context

 

[Omazio2019]

What does lower means in your context

Those are not as significant as Destruction-Creation, Yin-Yang that govern the whole reality: hot-cold, left-right, etc

 

[Omazio2019]

Bump

 

[Omazio2019]

bump

 

[ImmortalDread]

If we have proof that Creation and Destruction encompass all other lower dualities in reality, though i think Yin-Yang should work in this case

TD 2 looks fine then

 

[Firestorm808]

Those are not as significant as Destruction-Creation, Yin-Yang that govern the whole reality: hot-cold, left-right, etc

When you refer to Yin and Yang, was that phrase actually used in Japanese, or are you referring to the use of the words Light and Dark, Inside and Outside, etc?

 

[Omazio2019]

When you refer to Yin and Yang, was that phrase actually used in Japanese, or are you referring to the use of the words Light and Dark, Inside and Outside, etc?

Yes the novel directly use the word 陰/yin

 

[Firestorm808]

Yes the novel directly use the word 陰/yin

What I mean is if Yin and Yang are being used under the context of the general concept of duality, not just the context of someone's inner darkness/light like the Yin-Yang Yoyo from Xiaolin Showdown.

 

[Omazio2019]

Isn't Ura Sougo who represent inside, dark, death,....said he's yin somehow imply that Yin-Yang encompass those lower duality?

 

[ImmortalDread]

I have some curtain worries and I did not ask but are you sure they he encompasses all "lower daulities", did it state anywhere? Or is it an assumption?

 

[Omazio2019]

I have some curtain worries and I did not ask but are you sure they he encompasses all "lower daulities", did it state anywhere? Or is it an assumption?

In here

 

[ImmortalDread]

Is this your interpretation, or the scan said it exactly like that?

 

[Omazio2019]

The scan said exactly like that: in order to become a true king, Sougo need to accept all of opposite side which is evil, dark, death,....when he united with his otherself who represent the other side of duality he's encompass those dualities (Swallow pure and dirt all at once) and "ruler over" the duality (both oppositing worlds). For the immunity to the duality or qualitative superior, he rule over past-future he transcend time and immune to it affect (timeline rewritten), having no concept of good or evil (this is the most controversial)

 

[ImmortalDread]

To confirm, the scans say this:

In order to become a true king, Sougo need to accept all the opposite side which is evil, dark, death, …. When he united with his other self who represent the other side of duality, he's encompass those dualities (Swallow pure and dirt all at once) and “ruler over” the duality (both oppositing worlds). For the immunity to the duality or qualitative superior, he rules over past-future he transcends time and immune to it affect (timeline rewritten), having no concept of good or evil (this is the most controversial)

Word by word?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Honestly, I prefer a translation request since I am iffy with this translation, I would like to see a whole translation without any “comments from translator” or “translator notes”.

Don't mind me with this request, but it is just for confirmation. Also, can you link the source? Is it canon? And where is it presented? Since the upper scans are from visual while others are written.

 

[Omazio2019]

Ok here you go

仮面ライダージオウ キカイだー！2121 | 仮面ライダーWEB【公式】｜東映

仮面ライダーWEB【公式】｜東映 仮面ライダージオウ キカイだー！2121

www.kamen-rider-official.com

【EPISODE22の振り返り】「ジオウサイキョウー！2019」 | 仮面ライダーWEB【公式】｜東映

仮面ライダーシリーズ公式サイトです。令和仮面ライダー第6作となる「仮面ライダーガヴ」や前作品「仮面ライダーガッチャード」などの番組や映画の紹介は勿論、グッズ・玩具やイベントの情報など、シリーズ全般の情報を掲載しています。

www.kamen-rider-official.com

 

[Omazio2019]

Bump

 

[ImmortalDread]

Ok here you go

仮面ライダージオウ キカイだー！2121 | 仮面ライダーWEB【公式】｜東映

仮面ライダーWEB【公式】｜東映 仮面ライダージオウ キカイだー！2121

www.kamen-rider-official.com

【EPISODE22の振り返り】「ジオウサイキョウー！2019」 | 仮面ライダーWEB【公式】｜東映

仮面ライダーシリーズ公式サイトです。令和仮面ライダー第6作となる「仮面ライダーガヴ」や前作品「仮面ライダーガッチャード」などの番組や映画の紹介は勿論、グッズ・玩具やイベントの情報など、シリーズ全般の情報を掲載しています。

www.kamen-rider-official.com

And did you ever request translation from wiki? Or how did you translate them?

 

[Omazio2019]

And did you ever request translation from wiki? Or how did you translate them?

I usually use deepl translate or ask someone else for a translation, i don't really like to wait for wiki translation-not a type of patient guy

 

[ImmortalDread]

I usually use deepl translate or ask someone else for a translation, i don't really like to wait for wiki translation-not a type of patient guy

Welp. I at least want confirmation of "all daulities", that is mentioned there because funny enough I can't even understand if there is translator note in the brackets or not

 

[Omazio2019]

"All dualities" part is 現実のすべて/everything of reality/every aspect of reality, with the preceding context light and dark, inside and outside, life and death which mean it refer to all dualities in reality

 

[ImmortalDread]

Alright, seems fine to apply actually.

 

[Firestorm808]

We are told that he transcends time and that he governs other aspects of reality.

Are we equating transcending to governing/ruling in this context?

 

[Firestorm808]

Since we know that he transcends time, dualities such as cause and effect / past and future are self explanatory.

However, do we have examples of what it means to transcends light and dark, good and evil, inside and out.

He can transcend time while just governing everything else without transcending them. I don't think he is immune to light and dark, good and evil, inside and out like he is to time stuff.

 

[Omazio2019]

I haven't found anything about dark and light yet but it seem like those transcend or beyond/exist outside the concept of time like Sougo or Woz also have no concept of Good and Evil


And yeah i think ruling over in the context is a synonyme to transcend due to what past-future explanation above and "possibly" good and evil

 

[Firestorm808]

To clarify, were the words transcend and govern used in the same source to make that equivalence?

 

[Omazio2019]

【EPISODE22の振り返り】「ジオウサイキョウー！2019」 | 仮面ライダーWEB【公式】｜東映

仮面ライダーシリーズ公式サイトです。令和仮面ライダー第6作となる「仮面ライダーガヴ」や前作品「仮面ライダーガッチャード」などの番組や映画の紹介は勿論、グッズ・玩具やイベントの情報など、シリーズ全般の情報を掲載しています。

www.kamen-rider-official.com

Yes, here it is

 

[Firestorm808]

The thing is, transcend is used twice on that page to refer to the rider powers and time, but not for the other non-time related duality stuff. If they meant to transcend, they would have used the word again.

 

[Firestorm808]

Add to the notion that there isn't justification for immunity to those listed non-time related dualities, it leads us to believe govern just means general control rather than transcendense.