• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact AKM sama if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.

Kamen Rider Transduality Revision "II"

716
191
Another duality thread, this time focusing on our loveable Demon King. Because this revision is about duality, I'd like to go over the definition of yin and yang, which is the fundamental concept of duality and has a lot to do with this thread.

[BIG NOTE]: Big thanks to Jamesthetaker who help me prepare the thread 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉

Introduction​

So, most people here understand the fundamentals of yin and yang, a concept in Chinese philosophy that represents opposing yet interconnected forces. The receptive principle is yin, and the active principle is yang, which may be seen in our everyday life as woman and man, cold and warm, negative and positive, and so on. According to the principle of yin-yang, seemingly opposing or opposed forces tend to balance each other out, which creates the harmony of the universe.

Explaination​

So, how does this relate to Kamen Rider? Well, Kamen Rider has a fair amount of influences based on this idea. One of these is Kamen Rider Ryuki's Mirror World. It's a world you can travel around using mirrors because it's a reflection of the real world and where the Kanzaki brothers, Ura Shinji (Mirror World Shinji), Ura Sougo (Mirror World Sougo), and the Mirror Monsters live. It exists as two sides of the same coin as the real world and mirrors reality's own laws. The word "ura" (裏) here means inside, while "hyoo" (表) is outside. So, you get the idea behind these words. Simply put, Mirror World is the yin to the yang of the real world.

The focus of this revision, however, will be on Tokiwa Sougo and his mirror counterpart, Ura Sougo. They meet for the first time in episode 20 when Sougo is struggling with his darker side, and two episodes later, Sougo understands that he and Ura Sougo are the same person, with both the nicest and most wicked sides being true. This is further emphasized in the novelization of Kamen Rider Zi-O, when Sougo encounters Ura Sougo again and the latter defines himself as the yin (darkness). When the yin and yang are combined, there is no sense of evil or good; they coexist, establishing the dualism of Tokiwa Sougo. Therefore, we can conclude that the series acknowledges and incorporates several aspects of the yin-yang concept into its own lore.

Now we will go over the tangible evidence of this yin-yang thing. Once Sougo accepts his inner darkness, he gains the Zi-O II Ridewatch, which he uses to transform into Kamen Rider Zi-O II. With his newfound power, Zi-O rewrites the past to prevent Geiz's death, then predicts the past and future and uses it as an advantage to defeat the enemy. Sometime later, we found out that predicting the future isn't the only thing Zi-O can do; he can literally create a new future as he desires. This caused Sougo to create an alternate future, which in turn created Kamen Rider Kikai in 2121 based on what he had previously believed to be a dream. So, by understanding the two aspects that govern reality (past-future), Zi-O was able to take control of them freely and "transcend time".

To continue, we will delve deeper into the past-future duality. Let us recall Sougo's statement, in which he mentions not only past and future but also dark and light, evil and good, inside and outside, and so on, all of which are dualities in the world. Regardless, the past-future takes precedence, and Sougo will eventually use it to control time. This is supported by WoG, which claimed that only when Sougo can govern all aspects of reality will he obtain the power to control time. Another Zi-O II is an example of this, as he has the same abilities as Kamen Rider Zi-O, such as precognition, rewriting the past, and even the ability to overwrite the whole timeline. This is where Chinese philosophy and Kamen Rider lore intersect: in this context, "time" refers to the entirety of reality, and "past-future" alludes to the yin-yang, which is the most fundamental principle that upholds all aspects of reality. To conclude, Zi-O power allowed him to govern "past-future," the duality that precedes all aspects of reality; as a result, he can control "time," or the reality from which the duality originates.

In the third section, we will look at the statement "transcend time." The term itself is ambiguous because it can refer to a variety of things in general, hence we'll deduce the context behind it. That being said, there is something you must first understand: the Ohma Advent Calendar, a book that chronicles all of the events that led Sougo to become the Demon King Ohma Zi-O. While the book's content may alter as a result of a series of events, the outcome of Ohma Zi-O is unchangeable. This bring us back to Another Zi-O II from before, in which he overwrote the entire timeline and erased other Riders from existence in order to overthrow Zi-O. Despite his changes to history, the outcome of the Ohma Advent Calendar stays the same: Sougo's uprising as Ohma Zi-O. For those reason, Zi-O is unaffected by any alteration in "time" or "past-future." As a result, we can legitimately believe that Zi-O not only governs all aspects of reality, but that he is "above" them and immune to the consequences of those aspects.

TL;DR​

To summarize what I've written thus far, Kamen Rider defines "past-future" as the fundamental duality governing all forms of reality, with "time" representing reality as a whole. To become a great king, Zi-O must govern all of those aspects in order to gain the ability to control "time." Simultaneously, Zi-O's transcendence from "time" would rendering him immune to the effect that could change reality, this would give him Transduality type 2
 

Firestorm808

VS Battles
Administrator
6,276
5,261

Type 2 (General Transduality): Characters that exist in a nondual state regarding all dual systems within the scope of an entire level of reality and qualitatively superior or immune to the effects caused within it. Furthermore, characters with this type can be accurately described as being in either both or neither state of the dualities.
I can't say that I follow ZI-O being transcendent over "all dual systems" when you compare it to the other examples we are given. It seems that a lot is being lumped in transcending time.
 
716
191
When Zi-O accept his counterpart-yin, he's also accept all the dualities in the reality (mirror world + real world) and "rule" them both, by "rule" past-future he acquires acausality and immune to history change, since Zi-O is the series that focus on the aspect of time, it doesn't show the qualitatively superior of other dualities, but still possibly TD 2 would sound better to you i assume.
 
Last edited:

Firestorm808

VS Battles
Administrator
6,276
5,261
We are told that Sugou accepts the dualities of Dark, Light, Good, Evil, etc, but that doesn't imply that he transcends their effect on him.

Typical Transduality Type 2 characters are some form of being one with everything as a unity, indifferent to the lower dualities.

I'm unsure at what point we consider "all dual systems" to apply, but here's a list I found for reference.

What are the "staples" that would imply "all dual systems"? I bolded some that I think work.
 
Last edited:
716
191
We are told that Sugou accepts the dualities of Dark, Light, Good, Evil, etc, but that doesn't imply that he transcends their effect on him.
Why not? He accept the dualities of past-future and he transcend the effect of timeline rewrite or transcend time. This was shown twice in Tv series and Stage Show
I think Zi-O suit these two: he makes his dream become actual future, creating Another Kikai which is a dream production to exist in real-life. While Ohma Zi-O can returns space-time to nothingness and makes space-time from nothing as the duality of Destruction-Creation is his true power
 

Firestorm808

VS Battles
Administrator
6,276
5,261
Why not? He accept the dualities of past-future and he transcend the effect of timeline rewrite or transcend time. This was shown twice in Tv series and Stage Show

I think Zi-O suit these two: he makes his dream become actual future, creating Another Kikai which is a dream production to exist in real-life. While Ohma Zi-O can returns space-time to nothingness and makes space-time from nothing as the duality of Destruction-Creation is his true power
Well, to transcend good and evil would imply that he is indifferent to the concepts of good and evil, being essentially amoral.

To transcend Existence/Nonexistence means to simply be, neither existing nor not existing in the Buddhist sense.

To clarify, Fiction Manipulation/Real World Manipulation (Real/Fake) are metafictional abilities, not just bringing dreams to life.

In any case, I ask the other staff at what point we consider "all dual systems" to apply.
 

Jamesthetaker

He/Him
6,283
1,540
We are told that Sugou accepts the dualities of Dark, Light, Good, Evil, etc, but that doesn't imply that he transcends their effect on him.

Typical Transduality Type 2 characters are some form of being one with everything as a unity, indifferent to the lower dualities.

I'm unsure at what point we consider "all dual systems" to apply, but here's a list I found for reference.

What are the "staples" that would imply "all dual systems"? I bolded some that I think work.
In my opinion, these are the things that work for me:
Well, to transcend good and evil would imply that he is indifferent to the concepts of good and evil, being essentially amoral.
This scan right here describes him as not being tied to the concept of good or evil.
 

Jamesthetaker

He/Him
6,283
1,540
Perhaps it does not imply that Sougo has a childlike mind but rather that his morals are similar to those of a child who thinks nothing about good and evil. Sougo is at least 17 years old, so he isn't ignorant of the concept. "I'm the greatest and kindest Demon King," Ohma once said, and tyranny or mass genocide have no bearing on Sougo's kingship because it simply does not matter to him.

That being said, I will leave it at that. You guys can interpret this for whatever it is.
 
4,062
726
I don't think naivety/innocence is the same as transcending the concept of good and evil.
The thing is we saw what prime Zi-O is. He doesn't view his rule over Earth that he completely decimated as evil and proudly declared that he's still the kindest and greatest demon king. He doesn't care that his younger self is effectively trying to undermined his very existence, nor changing it.

Because the one who have the right to be king (himself) is free to choose whatever and however he saw fit.
 
716
191
There are few upcoming upgrade for Kamen Rider that may support this TD type 2 thread so could we temporary stop the discuss? We'll discuss this later until James revision released
 

Firestorm808

VS Battles
Administrator
6,276
5,261
Okay. It would also be helpful for a staff thread to better define the clues to deduce Type 2 and whatnot on the ability page.
 

Jamesthetaker

He/Him
6,283
1,540
There are few upcoming upgrade for Kamen Rider that may support this TD type 2 thread so could we temporary stop the discuss? We'll discuss this later until James revision released
kamen rider is wanked so im gonna downgrade it to 11-A via heisei forever

Joke aside, it gonna take a while for my revision to come out because I need to sort thing out with Sir Ovens.
 
2,874
1,669
neutral for this, but isn't it necessary to get Transduality Type 2 Immunity to all aspects of the reality (in that fiction)? if oma zio really has resistance up to the immune stage, to all of that in his fiction. then I agree to transduality Type 2

and I disagree with Yin-Yang there who presented All Things in Kamen Rider Fiction because what I saw that was discussed was only a counter part of Good and Bad.

He's using his unexpected powers to bring destruction to the threat that's been haunting him. Nevertheless, he seems to enjoy the fact. It's as if a child with no concept of good and evil kills insects out of curiosity.
I think this is a metaphor that doesn't refer to a transdual ability
 

Firestorm808

VS Battles
Administrator
6,276
5,261
This is what staff have said regarding the topic.

"In general, one gets the power by having explanations that pretty much say what the text requires. I don't think one would get "transcendence over all dual systems" without an explanation that more or less says, "this character is transcendent over all dual systems." Like, sure, instead of dual systems, you can use something that paraphrases it, like "can't be expressed as having any property or its opposite," but that's basically how far it goes.
You gonna need an "all" or "any" [and "transcends dual systems" synonyms] in a statement."
 

ImmortalDread

She/Her
14,820
10,009
No, this is not what staff agreed with. DT explicitly stated that the context values over and matters on those stuff, sure you need those statements but if author described those in other terms, it qualifies.
 

Firestorm808

VS Battles
Administrator
6,276
5,261
No, this is not what staff agreed with. DT explicitly stated that the context values over and matters on those stuff, sure you need those statements but if author described those in other terms, it qualifies.
"you can use something that paraphrases it"

"You gonna need an "all" or "any" [and "transcends dual systems" synonyms] in a statement."

That is what he said. Also, two other staff agreed with his statements.
 

ImmortalDread

She/Her
14,820
10,009
It is somehow supererogatory to restrict what the author need to say to fit our standards. Also, you don't need “dual systems”, it depends on the fiction setting.
In MG, we have “Order” that presents it. You will see that those requirements contradict the fiction setting/author intentions.

Also? DT said this.
I don't think we should codify which words appear in the statement. That just seems unnecessarily inflexible. As said, synonyms and paraphrasing are acceptable. This is the type of thing where one should just look at the explanations the verse gives and think about whether they equate to the requirements for the type that the page lays out.

And I find it really commonsensible.
 

Firestorm808

VS Battles
Administrator
6,276
5,261
What are you arguing for?

We're both on the same page that paraphrases or synonyms are acceptable.

If the definition or characteristics of "Order" boils down to transcending duality or the like, it counts as a synonym or paraphrase.
 

ImmortalDread

She/Her
14,820
10,009
I am arguing about that he never said we need those statements, he said we can add examples or instances, but it is never a rule to begin with.
 

Firestorm808

VS Battles
Administrator
6,276
5,261
How else would you justify a character having the ability without some statement or characteristic that involves some equivalent of "All Duality"?

What precedent example are you drawing from?
 

ImmortalDread

She/Her
14,820
10,009
@Firestorm808 it depends on the context. We don't need to add statements requirement (which your suggestion got declined by @DontTalkDT) to give someone TD type 2. Yes, the author can fully describe it on his own way.

Also, are you agreeing or disagree with the thread?
 

Firestorm808

VS Battles
Administrator
6,276
5,261
@Firestorm808 it depends on the context. We don't need to add statements requirement (which your suggestion got declined by @DontTalkDT) to give someone TD type 2. Yes, the author can fully describe it on his own way.

Also, are you agreeing or disagree with the thread?
As I said, statement or characteristic equivalents.

My suggestion was about whether or not only explicit descriptions should be allowed. That is not what we are talking about right now.

We're not limiting how it is depicted, just that the core concept of all duality is involved.

Regarding the current thread, I'm leaning against Type 2 applying.
 
716
191
Can we consider Sougo "rule" the duality as synonyms that transcend them cause due to "rule" past and future he transcends time and immune to timeline rewrite. And to Fixxed Yin-Yang is not only good and bad in KR but also front and back, light and dark, life and death (Sougo (yang) represent the living while Ura Sougo(Yin)-the inhabitant of Mirror World as the dead)
 
243
42
Bisakah kita menganggap Sougo "memerintah" dualitas sebagai sinonim yang melampaui mereka karena karena "memerintah" masa lalu dan masa depan dia melampaui waktu dan kebal terhadap penulisan ulang garis waktu. Dan untuk Fixxed Yin-Yang tidak hanya baik dan buruk di KR tetapi juga depan dan belakang, terang dan gelap, hidup dan mati (Sougo (yang) mewakili yang hidup sedangkan Ura Sougo (Yin) - penghuni Dunia Cermin sebagai orang mati )
But why? Should Sougo get td 2 from transcend creation and destruction.
 

Firestorm808

VS Battles
Administrator
6,276
5,261
Those are not as significant as Destruction-Creation, Yin-Yang that govern the whole reality: hot-cold, left-right, etc
When you refer to Yin and Yang, was that phrase actually used in Japanese, or are you referring to the use of the words Light and Dark, Inside and Outside, etc?
 

Firestorm808

VS Battles
Administrator
6,276
5,261
Yes the novel directly use the word 陰/yin
What I mean is if Yin and Yang are being used under the context of the general concept of duality, not just the context of someone's inner darkness/light like the Yin-Yang Yoyo from Xiaolin Showdown.
 
716
191
Isn't Ura Sougo who represent inside, dark, death,....said he's yin somehow imply that Yin-Yang encompass those lower duality?
 

ImmortalDread

She/Her
14,820
10,009
I have some curtain worries and I did not ask but are you sure they he encompasses all "lower daulities", did it state anywhere? Or is it an assumption?
 
716
191
The scan said exactly like that: in order to become a true king, Sougo need to accept all of opposite side which is evil, dark, death,....when he united with his otherself who represent the other side of duality he's encompass those dualities (Swallow pure and dirt all at once) and "ruler over" the duality (both oppositing worlds). For the immunity to the duality or qualitative superior, he rule over past-future he transcend time and immune to it affect (timeline rewritten), having no concept of good or evil (this is the most controversial)
 

ImmortalDread

She/Her
14,820
10,009
To confirm, the scans say this:
In order to become a true king, Sougo need to accept all the opposite side which is evil, dark, death, …. When he united with his other self who represent the other side of duality, he's encompass those dualities (Swallow pure and dirt all at once) and “ruler over” the duality (both oppositing worlds). For the immunity to the duality or qualitative superior, he rules over past-future he transcends time and immune to it affect (timeline rewritten), having no concept of good or evil (this is the most controversial)
Word by word?
 

ImmortalDread

She/Her
14,820
10,009
Honestly, I prefer a translation request since I am iffy with this translation, I would like to see a whole translation without any “comments from translator” or “translator notes”.

Don't mind me with this request, but it is just for confirmation. Also, can you link the source? Is it canon? And where is it presented? Since the upper scans are from visual while others are written.
 

ImmortalDread

She/Her
14,820
10,009
Ok here you go
And did you ever request translation from wiki? Or how did you translate them?
 
716
191
And did you ever request translation from wiki? Or how did you translate them?
I usually use deepl translate or ask someone else for a translation, i don't really like to wait for wiki translation-not a type of patient guy
 

ImmortalDread

She/Her
14,820
10,009
I usually use deepl translate or ask someone else for a translation, i don't really like to wait for wiki translation-not a type of patient guy
Welp. I at least want confirmation of "all daulities", that is mentioned there because funny enough I can't even understand if there is translator note in the brackets or not
 
716
191
"All dualities" part is 現実のすべて/everything of reality/every aspect of reality, with the preceding context light and dark, inside and outside, life and death which mean it refer to all dualities in reality
 

Firestorm808

VS Battles
Administrator
6,276
5,261
We are told that he transcends time and that he governs other aspects of reality.

Are we equating transcending to governing/ruling in this context?
 

Firestorm808

VS Battles
Administrator
6,276
5,261
Since we know that he transcends time, dualities such as cause and effect / past and future are self explanatory.

However, do we have examples of what it means to transcends light and dark, good and evil, inside and out.

He can transcend time while just governing everything else without transcending them. I don't think he is immune to light and dark, good and evil, inside and out like he is to time stuff.
 
716
191
I haven't found anything about dark and light yet but it seem like those transcend or beyond/exist outside the concept of time like Sougo or Woz also have no concept of Good and Evil

And yeah i think ruling over in the context is a synonyme to transcend due to what past-future explanation above and "possibly" good and evil
 
Last edited:

Firestorm808

VS Battles
Administrator
6,276
5,261
To clarify, were the words transcend and govern used in the same source to make that equivalence?
 

Firestorm808

VS Battles
Administrator
6,276
5,261
The thing is, transcend is used twice on that page to refer to the rider powers and time, but not for the other non-time related duality stuff. If they meant to transcend, they would have used the word again.
 
Last edited:

Firestorm808

VS Battles
Administrator
6,276
5,261
Add to the notion that there isn't justification for immunity to those listed non-time related dualities, it leads us to believe govern just means general control rather than transcendense.
 
716
191
Then what about good and evil? Certainly those who transcend time yet have no concept of good and evil which is non-time dualities
 

Firestorm808

VS Battles
Administrator
6,276
5,261
Transcending good and evil is more of a morality thing than something you can have an immunity from.
 

Jamesthetaker

He/Him
6,283
1,540
Before we get into the meaning of those words, allow me to explain the context of Zi-O II itself.

Back in this thread, it has been accepted that Zi-O II should scale above Decade Armor, which scales to the real Decade. This scaling chain is significant because Zi-O II is Sougo's next evolution after Ohma Zi-O in the original timeline.

Originally, Zi-O used this form to defeat every Rider out there, including Decade and Gaim. Hence, the playback for him literally claims that his power transcends all riders. In other words, Zi-O II's transcendence places him above a transdual being who has become one with all existence and is no longer bound by destruction-creation.

The context is that becoming king requires Sougo to stand above anything because every Rider is below him, no matter if you're the destroyer of worlds or have a transcendent existence.
 

Firestorm808

VS Battles
Administrator
6,276
5,261
@Firestorm808 You don't need to show immunity, you can also show transcendence, and it qualifies.
Per the ability page, you need to justify being qualitatively superior or immune to the effects of what you transcend.

We have seen examples of immunity from time-related stuff, but what about examples of qualitatively superior/immunity from the other stuff mentioned stuff?
 

Firestorm808

VS Battles
Administrator
6,276
5,261
Before we get into the meaning of those words, allow me to explain the context of Zi-O II itself.

Back in this thread, it has been accepted that Zi-O II should scale above Decade Armor, which scales to the real Decade. This scaling chain is significant because Zi-O II is Sougo's next evolution after Ohma Zi-O in the original timeline.

Originally, Zi-O used this form to defeat every Rider out there, including Decade and Gaim. Hence, the playback for him literally claims that his power transcends all riders. In other words, Zi-O II's transcendence places him above a transdual being who has become one with all existence and is no longer bound by destruction-creation.

The context is that becoming king requires Sougo to stand above anything because every Rider is below him, no matter if you're the destroyer of worlds or have a transcendent existence.
It has been determined in a previous thread that MoB Gaim gets Transduality T1 for the Creation/Destruction Cycle

For Zi-O Forms w/ Gaim Watch, he atm gets Transduality T1 for Time and Creation/Destruction Cycle via Gaim. For Transduality T2 we need assurance that he has qualitatively superior/immunity from the other stuff. From what I recall, he isn't no-selling other riders with powers still within dualities. The lower forms of Zi-O, I have doubts of T2.

I could see Oma Zi-O possibly having T2 it because he no sells everything thrown at him in the series and is the Ultimate Form.
 
716
191
Well actually Gaim novel also said the other thing beside destruction and creation. It's good and bad, malice-hostility and hero will
When Sougo become Zi-O II, he transcend time and all riders those represent good-evil, hostile-hero that is why he can beat Another Rider (Another Ryuga) without the relate Legend Rider (Ryuga). And also he is immune to Another Ryuga's Attack Reflection which can reflect any kind of attack, even create a mirror version of Geiz (Mirror World reflect the law of reality itself)
 
Last edited:

Jamesthetaker

He/Him
6,283
1,540
It has been determined in a previous thread that MoB Gaim gets Transduality T1 for the Creation/Destruction Cycle

For Zi-O Forms w/ Gaim Watch, he atm gets Transduality T1 for Time and Creation/Destruction Cycle via Gaim. For Transduality T2 we need assurance that he has qualitatively superior/immunity from the other stuff. From what I recall, he isn't no-selling other riders with powers still within dualities. The lower forms of Zi-O, I have doubts of T2.

I could see Oma Zi-O possibly having T2 it because he no sells everything thrown at him in the series and is the Ultimate Form.
Yes, I would argue that only the stronger form of Zi-O would have TD 2. That being said, the content of this revision might change in a future revision, per what the OP said.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/kamen-rider-transduality-revision-ii.145476/#post-5274071
 

ImmortalDread

She/Her
14,820
10,009
Difference between nonduality and transduality is "qualitative superiority or showing immunity"

It is explicitly there in standards
 
2,874
1,669
Difference between nonduality and transduality is "qualitative superiority or showing immunity"

It is explicitly there in standards
Yes, because that you must show some kind of immunity

Transcending or unbound something without context can mean just resistance, not make it necessary qualitative superior or immune
 

ImmortalDread

She/Her
14,820
10,009
You are actually wrong. It's said "qualitative superiority or immunity."

And why would this be resistance? The context is talking about dual systems.
 
2,874
1,669
You are actually wrong. It's said "qualitative superiority or immunity."

And why would this be resistance? The context is talking about dual systems.
Bruh because of that i says you must have to show some kind of immunity

And here i talking about the word "transcending/unbounded". That word is not necessary make the character in the state of immunity/qualitative superior
 

ImmortalDread

She/Her
14,820
10,009
I agree? Did disagree with that? What I disagreed with your statement is you need those two "requirements" (which they are not, rather two options) to prove your TD.

Maybe due to your language you could not explain it, then my bad but you worded it wrong.
 

ImmortalDread

She/Her
14,820
10,009
You literally quoted on me saying it is two options and you say :you must. So it means you disagree.

Eh, let's drop it.
 
Top