Kaguya Ōtsutsuki (Composite) vs Yhwach (Composite)

[The4Godlike]

Why is there a thread like this?

 

[AppleLord]

Yet Bleach souls have the same physical structure as humans do. They won't survive in space, they bleed. So it's a NLF to say it won't work because he's a soul, when he really isn't. He's a Quincy.

They do. Only those who have spiritual energy on the afterlife, those who do not don't need to eat.

Yet, to exist in the afterlife your own body needs to be converted into a soul made of reishi. Matter from the human world can't go or exist in the afterlife. When IT works on souls that don't have matter related to ours then you tell me. That's NLF. It does't matter if he is goat, you can't exist in Soul Society withood been either a soul or convert your body into one, like Urahara did with Ichigo's friends.

 

[AppleLord]

@AppleLord the point of that was not to say that it would be useful to make him experience lives in secs, just that it stronger than KS.

It having more effects, doesn't mean is stronger. lol

 

[AppleLord]

@AppleLord
From what I understand about KS, it effects the 5 senses and your sense of energy. If IT works anything like Itachi's regular tsukuyomi (It does.) Then it can do much more than control the five senses and a person's sense of energy.

Edit: By saying all that, I'm saying that IT is more potent.

Potent doesn't mean anything when the two are unrelated in everything.

 

[Rocker1189]

No, the point at which it can affect a person to believe that they are spending days in toture makes it stronger.

 

[AppleLord]

No, the point at which it can affect a person to believe that they are spending days in toture makes it stronger.

That's an ability, not AP related. What good does it do when an opponent like Yhwach destroys his own throat without hesitation and doesn't even flinch. lol Naruto universe illusions don't even have feats on working on souls.

 

[Damage3245]

That's an ability, not AP related. What good does it do when an opponent like Yhwach destroys his own throat without hesitation and doesn't even flinch. lol Naruto universe illusions don't even have feats on working on souls.

Is Yhwach even a pure soul? A Quincy like Uryu isn't. So how do we know the other Quincy are just pure souls?

EDIT: Also, Itachi's genjutsu sealing sword worked on Nagato who was just an animated soul clad in ash.

 

[Rocker1189]

You igonred what the guy said about Bleach verse and souls. Also since when was this Ywach versus Itachi?

 

[Damage3245]

You igonred what the guy said about Bleach verse and souls. Also since when was this Ywach versus Itachi?

I brought up Itachi because he said: "lol Naruto universe illusions don't even have feats on working on souls."

EDIT: And I cannot find where he explains how Yhwach is only a soul.

 

[Rocker1189]

Yeah sorry I did not mean you. I was talking about Apple Lord.

 

[AppleLord]

That's an ability, not AP related. What good does it do when an opponent like Yhwach destroys his own throat without hesitation and doesn't even flinch. lol Naruto universe illusions don't even have feats on working on souls.

Is Yhwach even a pure soul? A Quincy like Uryu isn't. So how do we know the other Quincy are just pure souls?
EDIT: Also, Itachi's genjutsu sealing sword worked on Nagato who was just an animated soul clad in ash.

How is Yhwach only a soul? Bruh, you can't enter Soul Society without been a soul made of reishi. Yhwach was inside Soul Society for thousand of years if he was ever human to begin with he would had died long ago. Not to mention he is the son of the King of all Souls. And Souls can have children, Renji and Rukia had Ichika.

Nagato was inside a living vessel. He was not a soul. TSB do have feats of affecting souls like Minato's arms who were erased.

 

[AppleLord]

Yeah sorry I did not mean you. I was talking about Apple Lord.

I was the one who talked about the souls in bleach verse, and i didn't mention itachi. So it wasn't me who you were talking to. If so, quote it.

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

Yhwach is the son of the Soul King. So, he is a soul alright ;p

 

[Damage3245]

But surely they just have bodies consisting of a different kind of matter, right? They're not noncoporeal souls, and they're not dead. Also, since this fight is in an equalized location between Kaguya's dimension and the Silbern, you'd think that being made of a different kind of matter wouldn't be relevant here. They're in the same plane of existence so wouldn't both of them be made of the same kind of matter for equalization reasons?

EDIT: I'm still not getting how being made of reishi would make you immune to illusions as opposed to being made out of kishi.

 

[AppleLord]

But surely they just have bodies consisting of a different kind of matter, right? They're not noncoporeal souls, and they're not dead. Also, since this fight is in an equalized location between Kaguya's dimension and the Silbern, you'd think that being made of a different kind of matter wouldn't be relevant here. They're in the same plane of existence so wouldn't both of them be made of the same kind of matter for equalization reasons?
EDIT: I'm still not getting how being made of reishi would make you immune to illusions as opposed to being made out of kishi.

• They are not non-corporal, but they are dead. That's the whole point of the series ...afterlife, hell, "heaven" is soul society if you want to call it that. The series is base on reincarnation that's why there is balance and people die in the afterlife.

• Equalization only works for the type of energy. Not matter. And souls in Bleach can enter the human world in their soul form, and reishi can exist in the human world too, but it doesn't mix well with Kishi a.k.a. matter. So Yhwach doesn't get affected by Kaguya's world.

• Because Naruto illusions don't have feat of affecting souls made of spiritual matter.

 

[Damage3245]

1) But characters have entered Soul Society without dying. Yhwach isn't necessarily dead; his matter is just different to regular matter.

2) This feels a bit off... It feels like equalization should make this a non-issue, like making Bleach characters visible to their oppenents even though they're usually invisible to people that don't have spiritual awareness.

3) This feels a bit cheap since souls made out of spiritual matter don't exist in Naruto so it's impossible to affirm or deny. The next best thing is a soul inhabiting a material form like the Edo Tensei; in which case some illusions do work on them.

 

[JohnCenaNation]

That's an ability, not AP related. What good does it do when an opponent like Yhwach destroys his own throat without hesitation and doesn't even flinch. lol Naruto universe illusions don't even have feats on working on souls.

Is Yhwach even a pure soul? A Quincy like Uryu isn't. So how do we know the other Quincy are just pure souls?
EDIT: Also, Itachi's genjutsu sealing sword worked on Nagato who was just an animated soul clad in ash.

How is Yhwach only a soul? Bruh, you can't enter Soul Society without been a soul made of reishi. Yhwach was inside Soul Society for thousand of years if he was ever human to begin with he would had died long ago. Not to mention he is the son of the King of all Souls. And Souls can have children, Renji and Rukia had Ichika.
Nagato was inside a living vessel. He was not a soul. TSB do have feats of affecting souls like Minato's arms who were erased.

Yhwach is a Demigod Quincy who has been living for over 1,000 years by sucking dead people's soul rejuvenating him making him stronger each time. Read the manga before you start spreading lies. His father is a God not a Soul.

 

[Damage3245]

@JohnCenaNation; you should delete the first couple quotes inside that multi-quote. It's only necessary to quote the most recent post.

 

[AppleLord]

Yhwach is a Demigod Quincy who has been living for over 1,000 years by sucking dead people's soul rejuvenating him making him stronger each time. Read the manga before you start spreading lies. His father is a God not a Soul.

Hope you aren't talking to me. Cause I didn't mention or denied any of that. By lore he can't or anyone exist inside the Afterlife without been a soul.

 

[JohnCenaNation]

Yhwach is a Demigod Quincy who has been living for over 1,000 years by sucking dead people's soul rejuvenating him making him stronger each time. Read the manga before you start spreading lies. His father is a God not a Soul.

Hope you aren't talking to me. Cause I didn't mention or denied any of that. By lore he can't or anyone exist inside the Afterlife without been a soul.

Have you forgot Quincy can teleport to different location out of bound by using their shadows including Soul Society?

 

[AppleLord]

1) But characters have entered Soul Society without dying. Yhwach isn't necessarily dead; his matter is just different to regular matter.

2) This feels a bit off... It feels like equalization should make this a non-issue, like making Bleach characters visible to their oppenents even though they're usually invisible to people that don't have spiritual awareness.

3) This feels a bit cheap since souls made out of spiritual matter don't exist in Naruto so it's impossible to affirm or deny. The next best thing is a soul inhabiting a material form like the Edo Tensei; in which case some illusions do work on them.

1. Well, he died to Yamamoto and died again to Ichigo twice. I don't think he cares if he is dead.

2. No. You're nerfing Bleach to much. What's next? We give Naruto characters the ability to negate hax of others because Reiatsu is equalized? Note: Reiatsu can negate hax of weaker opponents.

3. That's no my problem. We can go around it and equalize it when illusions affect souls without a living vessel. To make things worst IT didn't even worked on the Edo's.

 

[Damage3245]

2. No. You're nerfing Bleach to much. What's next? We give Naruto characters the ability to negate hax of others because Reiatsu is equalized? Note: Reiatsu can negate hax of weaker opponents.

How is that a nerf? It's equalizing both sides.

 

[BMWFanboy]

Yet Bleach souls have the same physical structure as humans do. They won't survive in space, they bleed. So it's a NLF to say it won't work because he's a soul, when he really isn't. He's a Quincy.

They do. Only those who have spiritual energy on the afterlife, those who do not don't need to eat.
Yet, to exist in the afterlife your own body needs to be converted into a soul made of reishi. Matter from the human world can't go or exist in the afterlife. When IT works on souls that don't have matter related to ours then you tell me. That's NLF. It does't matter if he is goat, you can't exist in Soul Society withood been either a soul or convert your body into one, like Urahara did with Ichigo's friends.

So what you're basically saying is drowning can work on these souls, the effects of vacuum can work on these souls, the effects of dehydration can work on these souls, yet it's a No Limits Fallacy to say that the Infinite Tsukyomi will work?

I'm sorry, but you're the one propagating the NLF. Ichigo showed that souls can drown. Kenpachi showed souls can't survive the vacuum of space. Yamajii's Bankai dried people's throats and could have easily killed them of dehydration. You can't just say that "they're made of Reishi so IT won't work" when they being of a different material are still susceptible to stuff we are, such as drowning or space.

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

..........

 

[Damage3245]

It's like saying Kaguya's Ash Bones have never been shown to work on a soul with spiritual matter, so therefore she can't hit Yhwach...

 

[AppleLord]

Have you forgot Quincy can teleport to different location out of bound by using their shadows including Soul Society?

That doesn't tell anything. Shinigami can teleport to different locations too. Arrancars as well. Have you forgotten that the Quincy 1,000 years ago after losing the war escaped to Soul Society and created a dimension below Seireitei? Have you forgotten the laws of the verse? Kishi can't exist in Soul Society. They have to convert their bodies into konpaku (souls) of reishi to enter. Ichigo's friends did it thanks to Urahara's machine.

 

[AppleLord]

2. No. You're nerfing Bleach to much. What's next? We give Naruto characters the ability to negate hax of others because Reiatsu is equalized? Note: Reiatsu can negate hax of weaker opponents.

How is that a nerf? It's equalizing both sides.

No, Bleach needs to be nerf a lot to even begin equalization. There are to many inside verse rule in it.

 

[AppleLord]

It's like saying Kaguya's Ash Bones have never been shown to work on a soul with spiritual matter, so therefore she can't hit Yhwach...

That's different because is a physical attack, which Bleach characters have shown to be affected by matter. IT and illusions are not matter.

 

[JohnCenaNation]

Have you forgot Quincy can teleport to different location out of bound by using their shadows including Soul Society?

That doesn't tell anything. Shinigami can teleport to different locations too. Arrancars as well. Have you forgotten that the Quincy 1,000 years ago after losing the war escaped to Soul Society and created a dimension below Seireitei? Have you forgotten the laws of the verse? Kishi can't exist in Soul Society. They have to convert their bodies into konpaku (souls) of reishi to enter. Ichigo's friends did it thanks to Urahara's machine.

Kubo forgets his work a lot, we don't even know Tier's faith. I mean why are we comparing fodder Quincy 1,000 years ago to Quincies right now who has better technologies? Yhwach was able to steal Yamamoto's Bankai which he wasn't able to do before during their first fight.

 

[Damage3245]

That's different because is a physical attack, which Bleach characters have shown to be affected by matter. IT and illusions are not matter.

IT targets the mind; unless cats have chakra networks too? If Yhwach has a mind, then he should be vulnerable to it.

 

[AppleLord]

So what you're basically saying is drowning can work on these souls, the effects of vacuum can work on these souls, the effects of dehydration can work on these souls, yet it's a No Limits Fallacy to say that the Infinite Tsukyomi will work?

I'm sorry, but you're the one propagating the NLF. Ichigo showed that souls can drown. Kenpachi showed souls can't survive the vacuum of space. Yamajii's Bankai dried people's throats and could have easily killed them of dehydration. You can't just say that "they're made of Reishi so IT won't work" when they being of a different material are still susceptible to stuff we are, such as drowning or space.

They have never been shown to drawn, affected by the vacuum of space or starve of dehydration in the human world. Even Ichigo when he trained in the Dangai for 2,000 hours straight, he didn't got affected by any starvation or dehydration. Inside the Dangai where he did his mental training, when 1 year passes outside the Dangai, 2,000 years will have passed inside the Dangai. He spend 2,000 hours sat on the floor.

Infinite Tsukyomi has not shown feats of working on souls, and it doesn't even work on Edo's which have a living vessel.

Everything in Soul Society is made of Reishi, is Spiritual matter for a reason. Ichigo drowning? huh last time i saw him he was talking underwater. Even Kenpachi was expected to last an hour underwater. But logic.

 

[AppleLord]

Kubo forgets his work a lot, we don't even know Tier's faith. I mean why are we comparing fodder Quincy 1,000 years ago to Quincies right now who has better technologies? Yhwach was able to steal Yamamoto's Bankai which he wasn't able to do before during their first fight.

That doesn't have anything to do with our chat. Either prove your point or concede.

 

[BMWFanboy]

So what you're basically saying is drowning can work on these souls, the effects of vacuum can work on these souls, the effects of dehydration can work on these souls, yet it's a No Limits Fallacy to say that the Infinite Tsukyomi will work?

I'm sorry, but you're the one propagating the NLF. Ichigo showed that souls can drown. Kenpachi showed souls can't survive the vacuum of space. Yamajii's Bankai dried people's throats and could have easily killed them of dehydration. You can't just say that "they're made of Reishi so IT won't work" when they being of a different material are still susceptible to stuff we are, such as drowning or space.

They have never been shown to drawn, affected by the vacuum of space or starve of dehydration in the human world. Even Ichigo when he trained in the Dangai for 2,000 hours straight, he didn't got affected by any starvation or dehydration. Inside the Dangai where he did his mental training, when 1 year passes outside the Dangai, 2,000 years will have passed inside the Dangai. He spend 2,000 hours sat on the floor.

Infinite Tsukyomi has not shown feats of working on souls, and it doesn't even work on Edo's which have a living vessel.

Everything in Soul Society is made of Reishi, is Spiritual matter for a reason. Ichigo drowning? huh last time i saw him he was talking underwater. Even Kenpachi was expected to last an hour underwater. But logic.

Except when Ichigo needed to count to 100 underwater he couldn't and said he'd drown(and he obviously would because he clearly ran out of breath) and Kenpachi's fluids started evaporating when Gremmy threw him into space, and when Yamajii's activated his Bankai some Captain did say his throat went dry.


By that logic, even Dr.Strange's magic hasn't shown working on Reishi. So that means it won't work on them?


As for it not working on Edo Tensei, that is fundamentally different from Souls which are basically Reishi humans. Edo Tensei don't bleed, they can't die unless they are released, they heal even if they are beaten etc. Souls can however die, bleed, need to breathe, drink, eat, can't survive in space, can drown. So you can't compare then because they're both technically dead when they're almost nothing alike. Souls are basically humans that have gone to another Dimension. They're not like Edo Tensei at all.


Really? Then why'd he fail to count to 100 underwater when I asked to? Oh wait I know, because he ran out of breath

 

[AppleLord]

IT targets the mind; unless cats have chakra networks too? If Yhwach has a mind, then he should be vulnerable to it.
Edo's have minds too. Still unaffected by IT. Even if we don't take Kaguya's filler Arc to prove that animals do have chakra. Toads have it. Snakes have it. Sasuke put one under genjutsu, crows too.

We have the manga lore, Souls, bodies and minds certainly existed before the shinju came to earth. Thus chakra does not belong solely to Kaguya. Chakra has always existed as long as there has been life. Hagoromo only taught/gave people the ability to mold and form it in new ways. And thus actually use it for jutsus and techniques. But they used for war.

Naruto is clearly a world of the supernatural. Obito observed that the afterlife/limbo was connected to the living world through chakra. I sincerely doubt the afterlife came after the shinju and Hagoromo. Kaguya and the Otsutsuki also has powers before eating any of the chakra fruits.

And what about the Shinigami in Naruto? They are over a thousand years old. Unless Hagoromo somehow created him, which I doubt.

Maybe Kiba also shares his Chakra with Akamaru ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[Damage3245]

Edo's have minds too. Still unaffected by IT. Even if we don't take Kaguya's filler Arc to prove that animals do have chakra. Toads have it. Snakes have it. Sasuke put one under genjutsu, crows too.

We have the manga lore, Souls, bodies and minds certainly existed before the shinju came to earth. Thus chakra does not belong solely to Kaguya. Chakra has always existed as long as there has been life. Hagoromo only taught/gave people the ability to mold and form it in new ways. And thus actually use it for jutsus and techniques. But they used for war.

Naruto is clearly a world of the supernatural. Obito observed that the afterlife/limbo was connected to the living world through chakra. I sincerely doubt the afterlife came after the shinju and Hagoromo. Kaguya and the Otsutsuki also has powers before eating any of the chakra fruits.

And what about the Shinigami in Naruto? They are over a thousand years old. Unless Hagoromo somehow created him, which I doubt.

Maybe Kiba also shares his Chakra with Akamaru ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Edo's don't have living bodies.

Yhwach does have a living body since he can bleed, breathes and does all the things a living body would do (but made of Reishi).

Seems to me that since IT works on things with living bodies, it would work on Yhwach too.

 

[BMWFanboy]

IT targets the mind; unless cats have chakra networks too? If Yhwach has a mind, then he should be vulnerable to it.

Edo's have minds too. Still unaffected by IT. Even if we don't take Kaguya's filler Arc to prove that animals do have chakra. Toads have it. Snakes have it. Sasuke put one under genjutsu, crows too.

We have the manga lore, Souls, bodies and minds certainly existed before the shinju came to earth. Thus chakra does not belong solely to Kaguya. Chakra has always existed as long as there has been life. Hagoromo only taught/gave people the ability to mold and form it in new ways. And thus actually use it for jutsus and techniques. But they used for war.

Naruto is clearly a world of the supernatural. Obito observed that the afterlife/limbo was connected to the living world through chakra. I sincerely doubt the afterlife came after the shinju and Hagoromo. Kaguya and the Otsutsuki also has powers before eating any of the chakra fruits.

And what about the Shinigami in Naruto? They are over a thousand years old. Unless Hagoromo somehow created him, which I doubt.

Maybe Kiba also shares his Chakra with Akamaru ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

How is this valid? And by the way why'd you take a 2 year old comment from Reddit and paste it here?


For one, Edo are nothing like Bleach's souls. So let's stop talking like they are.

Two, just because the Snake and Toad Sages have Chakra doesn't meant cats and dogs will. If they did they would've had their own school of teaching Sage Mode.

 

[BMWFanboy]

Edo's have minds too. Still unaffected by IT. Even if we don't take Kaguya's filler Arc to prove that animals do have chakra. Toads have it. Snakes have it. Sasuke put one under genjutsu, crows too.
We have the manga lore, Souls, bodies and minds certainly existed before the shinju came to earth. Thus chakra does not belong solely to Kaguya. Chakra has always existed as long as there has been life. Hagoromo only taught/gave people the ability to mold and form it in new ways. And thus actually use it for jutsus and techniques. But they used for war.

Naruto is clearly a world of the supernatural. Obito observed that the afterlife/limbo was connected to the living world through chakra. I sincerely doubt the afterlife came after the shinju and Hagoromo. Kaguya and the Otsutsuki also has powers before eating any of the chakra fruits.

And what about the Shinigami in Naruto? They are over a thousand years old. Unless Hagoromo somehow created him, which I doubt.

Maybe Kiba also shares his Chakra with Akamaru ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Edo's don't have living bodies.
Yhwach does have a living body since he can bleed, breathes and does all the things a living body would do (but made of Reishi).

Seems to me that since IT works on things with living bodies, it would work on Yhwach too.

QFT

 

[AppleLord]

Except when Ichigo needed to count to 100 underwater he couldn't and said he'd drown(and he obviously would because he clearly ran out of breath) and Kenpachi's fluids started evaporating when Gremmy threw him into space, and when Yamajii's activated his Bankai some Captain did say his throat went dry.

By that logic, even Dr.Strange's magic hasn't shown working on Reishi. So that means it won't work on them.

As for it not working on Edo Tensei, that is fundamentally different from Souls which are basically Reishi humans. Edo Tensei don't bleed, they can't die unless they are released, they heal even if they are beaten etc. Souls can however die, bleed, need to breathe, drink, eat, can't survive in space, can drown. So you can't compare then because they're both technically dead when they're almost nothing alike. Souls are basically humans that have gone to another Dimension. They're not like Edo Tensei at all.

Really? Then why'd he fail to count to 100 underwater when I asked to? Oh wait I know, because he ran out of breath

1. Where and when did he needed to count to 100 underwater. Show me a scan. I don't remember this been canon.

2. Where is the evidence that hints at Gremmy throwing him into outer space from the human world and not Soul Society?

3. Their throat went dry. But not Ichigo's. Even Yhwach could restore his own voice by crushing his throat and absorbing reishi through it. The water in Soul Society is made of reishi as everything else.

4. Dr. Strange Magic transcends matter, and he has feats of fighting souls too.

5. See you're reversing my argument against Edo's been equal to Souls. Exactly my point. Souls are basically humans that have gone to another Dimension. They're not like Edo Tensei at all. Show me feats of IT working on Souls without a living vessel because Tsukuyumi does work on Edo. Itachi vs Kabuto.

6. Show me a scan of Ichigo not breathing underwater.

 

[Damage3245]

5. See you're reversing my argument against Edo's been equal to Souls. Exactly my point. Souls are basically humans that have gone to another Dimension. They're not like Edo Tensei at all. Show me feats of IT working on Souls without a living vessel because Tsukuyumi does work on Edo. Itachi vs Kabuto.

But Yhwach isn't a soul without a living vessel. His body is alive; just like Ichigo and all the Shinigami in Soul Society. Some Shinigami are even born naturally in Soul Society and you want to argue that they're not alive?

 

[AppleLord]

Edo's don't have living bodies.Yhwach does have a living body since he can bleed, breathes and does all the things a living body would do (but made of Reishi).Seems to me that since IT works on things with living bodies, it would work on Yhwach too.

Edo's have a living vessel, the wiki says so. There source is this one. Chapter 520.

All souls can bleed in Bleach. Is that a crime? Reishi blood. Source: Chapter 1

Nice NLF.